Paid/Unpaid Cantors

[JPUSC]

Not to make light of your situation, but that totally cracked me up.

Sure, it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek although very accurate actually

 

[johnnykins]

Yes, exactly! Funny thing is, my secular fee for my services is 10x as much as the stipend as I am an accomplished musician, but since they think I’m a kid, they told me their assumption was that I was a cantor-in-training. Well, I guess I should be flattered they think I’m younger than I am.

Their expectations need an adjustment. Just stand up for yourself. Let them know your fee schedule and any discount you are willing to give. The worker is entitled to his wage.

 

[Sarabande]

I have a dilemma at my current parish.

I am a professional, classically-trained singer and have been a paid cantor at other parishes.

…

What are your opinions? Is it fair for some to be paid and others not to be? Should I have a right to feel upset? Musicians (pianists, guitarists) are paid as well. It is hard to tell as it is a church which is different from other jobs. I don’t know if they expect me to be a volunteer, but why are others who are doing the same exact thing I’m doing receiving a stipend?
…

I’m a regular professional cantor at two parishes and I also sub/freelance at other parishes in the diocese as a paid cantor for their Sunday masses or other special masses. I am classically trained and have had 20 years of experience as a cantor since I was a child. I was not paid when I first started out, nor would I expect it. I was still learning how to sing and still learning how to cantor without “performing”. I can’t stand the arm flailing (I think the majority of people are smart of enough to know when to come - especially when it is an easy and familiar hymn), either, but unfortunately, many parishes require it, so I do the minimum. Cantoring at parishes is part of what I do for a living now and I give my top notch whether or not I’m being paid.

All of this really depends on the parish and what they can afford to pay. There was obviously an understanding of what you do to be volunteer. Now that you have been promoted to a “cantor”, you might want to talk to them about a stipend. In my diocese parishes usually can afford to pay an organist or pianist, although some parishes do have people who volunteer their time. If there are guitarists, they are usually volunteer. A music director if usually paid as well. Now, with parishes that don’t pay their cantors, they will often be paid for weddings, funerals and other special events, but that is usually paid for by the families.

Singers, unfortunately, are often not considered as musicians. This is not just in the Catholic church music world, but also in the secular music world where classical singers are often used for little or no money. They are told that they can be building up their resume and “getting exposure”. Singers are so hungry to just perform that they do this, all the while ruining it for themselves and all other singers in terms of compensation. All singers, myself included, have been guilty of doing this. There are unions for classical singers, but it’s so much money, for a younger singer trying to break in, it’s not worth the union dues. I have recently made the decision to stop doing most freebies because of my stance in making the voice just as valuable as any other instrument.

Because there is so little respect or value for a singer as a musician and as an actual instrument, it never occurs to people that they should be paid like any other person who has mastered an instrument. As I know you well know, classical vocal training and mastery of that instrument is just as difficult as training for any other kind of instrument outside of your own body. Now, if a parish does not have the finances to fund cantors, I can see giving my time freely, especially if it is my parish. I have given my time to some parishes. I have even done funerals for people gratis because the cantors which were available to them were subpar, yet they were forced to use them and pay for them and didn’t have the money to pay for two cantors. I have never believed in forcing people to pay for a cantor or any other instrumentalist they didn’t like. If someone didn’t like my voice, I certainly wouldn’t want them to feel obligated to use me because the parish tells them to. Because it was for a funeral and it is a trying time for the families and they had already contacted me about it before finding out they couldn’t use an outside cantor (something I always tell people to do before booking me), I will sometimes give my time to them freely.

In your situation, I do think it should be all or nothing. At the parishes where I cantor, all of the cantors are paid. It diffuses any problems and hurt feelings that you are experiencing now. The cantors are usually auditioned to make sure that they can sing and understand the role of being a cantor. My directors like me because I understand how to chant and know how to pronounce Latin correctly. I’m the go-to cantor when the priest wants something chanted. I understand the different uses of my voice for various styles of music AND I try to always make it about the LITURGY and prayer and not about me.

If they are requiring you to take a cantor course (and I must say, your description of it made me chuckle) and also requiring you to attend rehearsals at your expense, you can tell them that as a volunteer, you only had a certain amount of time available to volunteer and you can also ask about reimbursement for the cantor course. $400 is a lot of money. Honestly, I would have a very difficult time paying for my mortgage that month, as well as paying for my son’s diapers and baby food among other things. I wouldn’t be able to do it and would have to politely decline and maybe even stop cantoring if that was the requirement for the parish.

Sorry for this being so long.

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, exactly! Funny thing is, my secular fee for my services is 10x as much as the stipend as I am an accomplished musician, but since they think I’m a kid, they told me their assumption was that I was a cantor-in-training. Well, I guess I should be flattered they think I’m younger than I am.

Yes, there are advantages and disadvantages looking younger. Talking about your age in the opera world is a no-no. I had a colleague recently who was talking to me like I was this young kid. It was driving me a little nuts, so I let him find out my age in a joking way, not to embarrass him. When he realized that I was at least six years older than him and 10 years older than the age he thought I was, he changed his tune (no pun intended) and started talking to me with more respect as he realized I had a lot more experience than he gave me credit for.

 

[Ophelia23]

Musicians’ work is so often seen simply as “just a nice thing to do.” We are expected to share our talent for free, even though our education cost no less than many others’ education. When you treat liturgical music as “just a nice thing to do,” then you end up with people being awarded authority and professional respect they have not earned and that those who have the professional know-how will refuse to give. I am a professionally-trained singer and have sung in choirs whose conductor was not qualified. Some of them didn’t even have a degree, let alone one in music. It didn’t work out too well.

I have been the director of musical liturgy for 13 years. I do not consider musical liturgy as just “a nice thing to do”. However, we do not pay the members of the choir. Why is that? We do not pay altar servers. Why? Readers are not paid, why? Why would we pay a cantor for singing at Mass? I simply can’t wrap my mind around it. But that is just my opinion, and the way my parish does things.

 

[Sarabande]

I have been the director of musical liturgy for 13 years. I do not consider musical liturgy as just “a nice thing to do”. However, we do not pay the members of the choir. Why is that? We do not pay altar servers. Why? Readers are not paid, why? Why would we pay a cantor for singing at Mass? I simply can’t wrap my mind around it. But that is just my opinion, and the way my parish does things.

I think if the cantors and choir members have either very little to no training as a musician and as a singer, then they probably shouldn’t be paid. Most well-trained Catholic singers I work with usually have church jobs working in choirs for Protestant churches, unless a Catholic parish pays section leaders. Are your music directors or other instrumentalists paid? If so, why would they deserve a stipend or salary over a singer who has put in just as much training and investment into mastering their instrument? If none of them are paid, then I can understand not understanding how a cantor should be paid.

The thing is, though, the majority of cantors I know of in the typical parish is little trained as a singer or a musician. I work in several parishes that do pay their cantors, but it is not common. These parishes are also in metropolitan cities or very “artsy” small-town communities who appreciate a high level of visual and auditory sacred arts. (ie. architecturally beautiful churches, sculpture and other artwork, along with having Palestrina, Couperin, chant and the like played during the liturgy.) I completely understand why people would think the average cantor shouldn’t receive a stipend. Many have never had a voice lesson nor music lessons. Readers don’t pay for years of reading lessons or public speaking lessons, nor do they go to conservatory or the equivalent of to master their trade. I did know one reader who paid for elocution lessons, though, and she read beautifully. Altar servers also do not have to do that as well, although they will be paid as altar servers for weddings, funerals and other special masses, whereas readers never are paid. I guess the argument can be made that a cantor doesn’t have to either, but then I always hear people complain about their cantors because they can’t sing very well. On top of that many, don’t even sing the music correctly, so they really aren’t leading very well, either. It really would be better not to have a cantor at all in those particular instances.

I think it comes down to what the pastor and his parish values and at the heart of it, there is no real right and wrong answer. Some parishes will value top notch musicianship from their instrumentalists and singers. Some won’t. Some like it once in a while and are willing to pay for it for special events, but for the typical Sunday mass, having somebody who can hold a tune and play an easy chord sheet for the hymns is good enough for them. That’s fine. The pastor has to see what will help his parish thrive and will follow through with a plan to make it happen. If a parish doesn’t value a higher level of musicianship and does not feel it will help them thrive, then why put the money into it? If it does and the parish can afford it, then by all means, there is no reason to not do it.

 

[Sarabande]

Professional musicians have a very strong union, and the union is not keen on the idea of performing for free. Certainly musicians can donate their service for a good cause, and a lot of musicians do this for personal fulfillment and also for publicity.

But for the most part, a musician who performs for free makes it difficult for all musicians to earn a living with their craft. Hence, the union.

The Catholic Church has historically supported unions, so I’m a little surprised to see Catholics throw musicians under a train. Are they not workers, too? If you are musician, you KNOW the answer to that question. :yup:

There are a lot of musicians like me who are not in the union, and we often volunteer our services. I consider myself a really good pianist, but I am in no way as good as the “professionals” who earned degrees or who earn a living performing.

If a parish wants the best musicians, they will pay. If they are willing to take musicians like me, they’ll save money. I personally think that each parish needs to determine whether they are in a situation where they should hire the best, or be happy with volunteers. A small country parish doesn’t need professional musicians from week to week, so maybe once in a while hire someone to provide a very special experience at Mass.

But a large parish in a big city with lots of competition from Protestant megachurches probably should think about hiring professionals and paying them union rates. I realize that Jesus is Truly Present in Catholic churches, and He should be our focus at Mass. But honestly now, you KNOW that many Catholics don’t get this, and they go to church or stay away from church because of the music. The Protestant megachurches know this and they hire the best.

Finally, I think that any parish ought to give Jesus the very BEST Mass music that they can afford.

 

[felsguy]

One of the lectors at my parish is a newscaster on a local TV station? Should he be paid when he reads on Sunday?

 

[Sarabande]

It’s up to the pastor. There is no right or wrong in this. If he feels it’s spiritually valuable to have a person with a newscaster’s voice to do the readings every week, sure, let him be paid. If the newscaster wants to donate his time (which he most likely is doing) since he probably makes a decent living wage outside of lectoring and doesn’t need it to help support his family, then that’s fine as well. That said, are there other readers who can give equal quality when they read and have no training as a newscaster? On the other hand, most people are not musicians and can’t play an instrument well enough or sing well enough to lead a congregation or to sing difficult sacred repertoire.

Having both worked as a volunteer and as a professional in the church music world, I have found that the responsibilities and level of quality expected of me are much different than when I have done it as a volunteer. For one thing, I’m expected to be able to chant well, to be able to pronounce Latin or other languages without an accent, to be able to sing challenging repertoire that only trained classical singers can do, to learn sacred motets on my own and go through this kind of music in one rehearsal on the day of the mass and doing exactly what the music director asks of me as part of a schola, being able to sight-read music the day of the mass, etc. I’m expected to know how and when to sing straight-tone and also with my natural vibrato. I’m often expected to not have a bad vocal day. I need to be keeping up my instrument for a couple hours every day, plus studying and learning repertoire, translating and keeping up my languages. Volunteers who aren’t musicians need much more guidance and leadership to learn the above by rote, but rarely at the level that a trained musician can give it.

A paid musician not doing her job can be easily booted, unless there is a contract which has specific stipulations, but that musician can be let go as soon as the contract runs out. Volunteer musicians aren’t booted as easily even if they aren’t doing a good job, and there are many understandable reasons for it because the politics behind the scenes can be difficult to navigate, so as a music director or pastor, they have to tread lightly.

Again, all of this depends on the pastor and the spiritual needs of the parish. If he feels they don’t need professional musicians to help do this, that’s fine. If he feels that his parish does, that’s also fine. He shouldn’t be judged either way.

 

[JPUSC]

Lol, funny this “expert liturgist” they just got abhors Latin, would probably prefer someone with an average voice and says it’s mainly the eye contact and body language that’s important for the job, almost disregarding the voice itself.

 

[Cat]

One of the lectors at my parish is a newscaster on a local TV station? Should he be paid when he reads on Sunday?

It’s possible that the lector/newscaster considers his lectoring “free publicity” for his television station. That’s actually worth a lot of money to the station.

I don’t know about all of you, but I tend to watch our parish “celebrities” on TV or listen to them on the radio!

A lot of us who play/sing also give lessons (I do not), and anytime we play/sing, we are “advertising” our services and gaining new students, which means income. Almost every week, someone asks me if I give lessons, so I know that if I did give lessons, my playing at Mass is a promotion of my teaching. (Wish I did teach piano!)

 

[Sarabande]

It’s possible that the lector/newscaster considers his lectoring “free publicity” for his television station. That’s actually worth a lot of money to the station.

I don’t know about all of you, but I tend to watch our parish “celebrities” on TV or listen to them on the radio!

A lot of us who play/sing also give lessons (I do not), and anytime we play/sing, we are “advertising” our services and gaining new students, which means income. Almost every week, someone asks me if I give lessons, so I know that if I did give lessons, my playing at Mass is a promotion of my teaching. (Wish I did teach piano!)

That is an interesting point. I don’t sing at churches to advertise giving lessons, but I did get two of my students because they heard me sing at two of the parishes I work at. What’s great is that they are now helping to build up the singing in the congregation. They sing out and with vigor, hoping that will encourage other people around them to do the same and I think it helps.

That said, I do know that when I cantor at church I have received a lot of opportunities to sing for weddings all over the place, not just at that particular parish. If a couple wants a classically trained cantor for their wedding mass, they usually have to look outside of their parish and that is how I acquire most of my wedding work, which was a good part of my income as a professional singer for a while. I’m now trying to getting out of all of that weekend work and getting more secular music work where I don’t have to work every single weekend and be away from my family.

I do have colleagues who will do Sunday mass work for free, but are guaranteed all of the weddings and funerals there. It’s a little bit like the agreement many organists have with parishes, except they are also paid for the Sunday masses and will get a bench fee if the families or couples don’t want an organist playing at their wedding or funeral. I’m not particularly a fan of that, either, because I don’t believe in forcing someone to pay for a singer they don’t care for, even if I think that singer is very good. People have different tastes when it comes to vocal quality of singers. I wouldn’t want someone to pay for me if they didn’t want my style of singing. I think about being on that end of the stick and being told I had to have someone with a pop-style of singing cantor at my relative’s funeral or wedding and hearing them butcher a chant or classical setting of “Ave Maria”, “Laudate Dominum”, the “In Paradisum” or Faure’s “Pie Jesu”.

 

[felsguy]

It’s possible that the lector/newscaster considers his lectoring “free publicity” for his television station. That’s actually worth a lot of money to the station

Really, Cat. I always look forward to reading your take on things (meant as a compliment)
but I think this is a bit of a stretch.

 

[27lw]

I have been the director of musical liturgy for 13 years. I do not consider musical liturgy as just “a nice thing to do”. However, we do not pay the members of the choir. Why is that? We do not pay altar servers. Why? Readers are not paid, why? Why would we pay a cantor for singing at Mass? I simply can’t wrap my mind around it. But that is just my opinion, and the way my parish does things.

Here’s the thing: have the readers spent $$ on getting an education on reading, that most other people just can’t do? No. Do the altar servers have a degree in liturgical serving? No.
Here’s another thought: musicians have a limited number of opportunities during the week to get paying gigs. Good singers may not be able to choose to sing for free at Mass, when they can get paid to sing at some other Church, and that is the way they make their living. I agree, that choir members are analogous to readers or altar servers, but soloists or section leaders are in a different role. It partly depends on the situation at your parish.

 

[Cat]

Really, Cat. I always look forward to reading your take on things (meant as a compliment)
but I think this is a bit of a stretch.

I am very lucky to live in a city where we KNOW our television and radio personalities.

I know that in other cities, these people are “way up there” and no ordinary person gets to know them. But in our city, they hang out with all the rest of us.

And so I stand by what I said. When you have three television stations all doing the news/weather/sports shows, and several radio stations with DJs doing live talk shows and music shows–the media personalities are aware that any public appearance they make tips people over into watching them instead of their competitors.

 

[felsguy]

I am very lucky to live in a city where we KNOW our television and radio personalities.

I know that in other cities, these people are “way up there” and no ordinary person gets to know them. But in our city, they hang out with all the rest of us.

And so I stand by what I said. When you have three television stations all doing the news/weather/sports shows, and several radio stations with DJs doing live talk shows and music shows–the media personalities are aware that any public appearance they make tips people over into watching them instead of their competitors.

All that may well be, but I digress. I’ll just leave it that I’ll bet the ranch (and the vacation home too) that enticing parishioners to switch to his tv station is the the farthest thing from this particular individual’s mind when he volunteers his ability to proclaim the Word of God during Sunday Mass.

 

[johnnykins]

I have been the director of musical liturgy for 13 years. I do not consider musical liturgy as just “a nice thing to do”. However, we do not pay the members of the choir. Why is that? We do not pay altar servers. Why? Readers are not paid, why? Why would we pay a cantor for singing at Mass? I simply can’t wrap my mind around it. But that is just my opinion, and the way my parish does things.

I think that is a very accurate statement for very many parishes in the USA - and it shows. Music at the vast majority of Catholic parishes is certainly an embarrassment and often approaches horrid. Frequently is features unsingable music sung by the tone deaf. Way too often the selections, the actual singing, the whole music experience is a penance. But, you get what you pay for. Catholics have, too often, opted for musical dreck and then defend that dismal choice.

If you want a really good music program, you will have to pay for it. If musical schlock desired, you can get that for free. Of course, if there simply is no money - well, you do what you can. However, too often that is not really the problem.

BTW good, on-key singing usually requires training that the usual person does not get. reading music is certainly helpful - and not always taught. Taste in music, while idiosyncratic, is helped by training and education. Simply reading or training children is not the same. Of course, servers are paid at weddings and special functions.

 

[Cat]

All that may well be, but I digress. I’ll just leave it that I’ll bet the ranch (and the vacation home too) that enticing parishioners to switch to his tv station is the the farthest thing from this particular individual’s mind when he volunteers his ability to proclaim the Word of God during Sunday Mass.

Oh, definitely. I never meant to imply that people serve the Lord in order to gain profit. But it is a side-benefit.

 

[jooliver]

I did take several courses in music and was happy to receive an A for my first and only jury- the professor said (after I had one year as a Cantor-he would have given me an A+, if not for the music in front of me). I chuckled, I was not a performer, but a singer for the LORD. I was unpaid in my own parish. After becoming ‘officially’ a Cantor. trained by the office of music in our very large Diocese. My training took 3 years, twice a year we attended evening classes (4hrs each) for 6 weeks, in addition to being scrutinized by our parish music director on a regular basis. For many years had 3 vocal instructors: one from Vienna, one from Julliard School of Music (who had a command performance for the Queen of England), and senior music students from a well known music university in NY.
All this above information is not to ‘elevate’ me or my singing or to obtain praise, as many before and after me have had much more education than I ever did and it was just never enough for my LORD as I had chosen to sing for the LORD, only. I went to the above classes and many, many conventions, some with nursing baby in tow. I even took speech therapy so my diction would be as perfect as it could be for the LORD. It helped remove my accent and some other minor noticeable imperfections. I did not want to distract anyone from prayer, even early in my career.
Considering being paid never entered my mind until many, many years later when my circumstances changed. The LORD Pulled me through that tough time too. My joy, other than my children, was when I proclaimed the Psalm on Sunday and led song during daily Eucharist, with the Pastor’s permission. As the years passed, I became deeper in love with my LORD and that aforementioned position switched. My life as a cantor has truly been Blessed,only because the LORD was with me. HIS IS the MASTER Plan.
It is very difficult for me, with my history of training, that so called cantors, some of whom get paid a good penny, some voices being VERY well trained, appear to sing HIS Word in sleeveless, short low cut dresses are totally inappropriate on the altar of the LORD. Unfortunately/fortunately for me, I can tell when they have not had special cantor training and I find it quite distracting to my prayer (still working on this). Some sing for their own glory and never praising the LORD for that gift of song. The beautiful voice is there, but not the necessarily love for the LORD (they will get there) nor the education as a certified cantor training which points out many particular instances when and when not to sing, how to stand, and most important, reverence before the exposed BLESSED SACRAMENT. I pray daily for them as their director has missed some fine points of cantoring.
There was a point when I was paid, but almost all, except for gas, went back into my perfecting the much needed continuing education that any cantor needs to ‘perfect their craft’. There is always more to learn. Still, at 68 and with 35 years of being a cantor, I do not think many of today’s cantors, who are actually ‘song leaders’ instead, have that necessary cantor training. It’s, proclaiming the WORD, is not something to do just because one has a good voice (and unfortunately, some don’t).
GOD Bless us all and Take us through these challenging times. hugs…jo

 

[jooliver]

ops…in editing this, made a few boo boos…sorry for that. hugs…jo