Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

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The inescapable fact here for me is that there is clearly no moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas. Hamas launched rockets first (after months of violating the ceasefire) and aimed them at civilian targets in Israel, including children on their way home from school. Hamas uses their own citizens, including women and children as human shields in order to maximize civilian deaths when Israel strikes at them. (When I asked an Israeli friend if the civilians are willing partners in this, he said they are so terrified of Hamas that they don’t dare resist.) If I’m wrong about any of this, I’m happy to be corrected.

We should pray for peace but also have no illusions about its prospect if one side has so little concern for human life.
Did you not see my post on the last page about how Israel was using a Palestinian boy as a human shield?? Literally, they tied him to their truck to stop boys from throwing rocks at them!!

How many Israeli civilians have died? 1? 2? How many confirmed Palestinian civilians? Over 300 now! Civilians! Children under 18, and women.

This bogus charge about Hamas using them as human shields is just that–totally bogus. There isn’t any proof of it–but we have proof that Israel is using civilians as shields. Why doesn’t the Israeli military let the press in to see??

They shoot at aid volunteers. Good heavens, Israel rammed a boat full of aid workers. Shot ambulances, bombed schools and hospitals. What kind of army shoots at the Red Cross??
 
What about the land? Which borders should Israel revert back to? Would Israel be willing to retreat within a new border?
I think the most realistic scenario is the 1967-borders, excluding Jerusalem. There’s no way in hillbilly that Israel is going to give up Jerusalem, and the Arabs are going to have to stop wailing and deal with it if they want peace.

But yeah - a lasting peace will have to be, I think, a two-state solution with the borders of 1967.
 
Now, the other point being made was that nobody’s allowed to kill babies, but if Israel kills babies it’s Hamas’s fault. There is absolutely no logic in that statement, none whatsoever. You can’t say it’s bad and then justify it, not in the same breath, that’s a complete and total contradiction.

And I’ll repeat what I said before:

ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASE-FIRE!!!
Oh well, it appears there is just too much of a cultural divide to even communicate with each other. This will just have to be decided through war. The stronger parrty will crush the weaker party. 🤷 At least we tried.
 
Oh well, it appears there is just too much of a cultural divide to even communicate with each other. This will just have to be decided through war. The stronger parrty will crush the weaker party. 🤷 At least we tried.
Too much of a cultural divide? Come off it. Stating a plain and simple fact like Israel broke the cease-fire has nothing to do with culture, and there are no cultural entanglements preventing it from being understood, provided people pull their heads out of the sand.

Killing babies is also universally despicable and inhumane.

Your statement single-handedly demonstrates an apathy towards the suffering of over a million innocent people. That you don’t care that children are being massacred.

Add that on top of the fact that you don’t care a nation of people are being deprived of the basic human right–life.

That you don’t care their homes have been demolished, that they have been forcible expelled and roam the world as refugees.

There is no justice in what Israel has done to Palestine.
 
Too much of a cultural divide? Come off it. Stating a plain and simple fact …There is no justice in what Israel has done to Palestine.
But if it was a plain and simple fact, we would agree with you. Unless we’re stupid. But we disagree, and we’re going to continue to support Israel. And Israel is stronger, and will win.
 
But if it was a plain and simple fact, we would agree with you. Unless we’re stupid. But we disagree, and we’re going to continue to support Israel. And Israel is stronger, and will win.
Stupid? No, I don’t think you’re stupid. I just don’t think you’re looking at the facts, because the info-tainment folks aren’t showing you the facts. You have to dig to find them.

Israel is stronger, that’s true. But Israel will lose, in the end.

What matters though, isn’t winning or losing the war. It is saving lives–that’s what matters right now. And then establishing peace. With every Palestinian death, Israel gets weaker. 🤷

I’m thinking that there will be a cease-fire arranged by early next week. Kind of like the cease-fire before. But Israel will probably not abide by the terms, just like they didn’t last time.
 
Israel can only win by making more enemies. Hopefully Obama can change things.

Does Hamas let Palestinians hide in the underground tunnels?
 
After perusing some posts, interestingly enough for me to contemplate how the issue here is being addressed with a reasonable knowledge of the conflict. It seemed that everybody had the best argument and of course we can see how our muslim sisters here wanted to; first of all trying to tell us non muslim to understand that not all muslims are violent, secondly that the root of the conflict was not religious but political, thirdly, that the conflict is blamed on the sides where posters think they sympathized with.

We need to address what causes this conflict. Based on my knowledge, all of the above does not merit at all because the conflict was started with bits and pieces of everything I mentioned. Which means that we can not say it is just political, but rather the way people reacted, the conflict has something to do with religion also. I believe though that sister Amy is peaceful but I think some of her arguments are bias or may not be the whole truth because of her being a muslim.

If we let a neutral person judge, I am sure that person will side with the Palestinian Muslims (I believed that Palestine is not for Muslims alone) because of the disproportionate damages and casualties. However, we need to look into some of the points why is that so. My own opinion based on the knowledge that I have known so far is that the conflict is too complex at this point of time due to the fact that the we are the new generation and inorder to know what what happened in the past must be brought back inroder for us to completely understand.
 
Stupid? No, I don’t think you’re stupid. I just don’t think you’re looking at the facts, because the info-tainment folks aren’t showing you the facts. You have to dig to find them.
Well, I agree the media is biased. I think I did my digging though. I suspect Israel intentionally provokes the palestinians to prevent a peace deal… but I still blame the Palestinians for responding to the provocations. I just don’t have much sympathy for people who fight wars they can’t win. It’s a sin in Christianity to fight a war you know you can’t win.
 
Too much of a cultural divide? Come off it. Stating a plain and simple fact like Israel broke the cease-fire has nothing to do with culture, and there are no cultural entanglements preventing it from being understood, provided people pull their heads out of the sand.

Killing babies is also universally despicable and inhumane.

Your statement single-handedly demonstrates an apathy towards the suffering of over a million innocent people. That you don’t care that children are being massacred.

Add that on top of the fact that you don’t care a nation of people are being deprived of the basic human right–life.

That you don’t care their homes have been demolished, that they have been forcible expelled and roam the world as refugees.

There is no justice in what Israel has done to Palestine.
There are three Muslim opinions that have been loudly heard in this forum. Hamba2han espouses the destruction of Israel. Both you and Muslim Woman put the blame entirely on Israel. I was about to lean with some sympathy for the cause of Palestinians in this war but if the three of you represents the general attitude and views of Muslims at large I am about to think that Muslims are unable to reason the reality of this war.

In Hamba I thought I saw an honest emotional attachment to Muslims ideal of wanting to destroy Israel and in you and Muslim Woman, either an incapability of seeing the war impartially or you are just sprouting cyber propaganda. I thought it is most likely the latter. If that’s the case it’s too bad because you seem to be the only voice of reason here and you are about to lose that.

That we don’t care that children are being massacred? What on earth are you talking about? Of course we care about children, anyone for that matter, being killed. I can understand your concerns and sentiment but without ever acknowledging the cruelty that Hamas have done to their own people, I cannot anymore think that you ever understand this war.

Have you ever thought how Hamas sent their finest young men and women to die on suicide mission? I care for those Palestinian young men and women. Have you ever thought about the Israelis who were killed by Hamas mortar being fired indiscriminately into civilian areas? I care about those civilians being killed. Have you ever thought about the bystanders and the children, yes Israeli children, being killed by Hamas suicide bombers? I care for those Israeli children as I care about the Palestinian children who are killed in this war.

Unless and until your compassion is for people killed on both sides, as all of them are people, instead of only for Hamas and Palestinians, I don ‘t think Muslims like you can be taken seriously or as negotiating partners for peace. Now I can understand the problem that Israel has with Muslim Hamas.
 
Well, I agree the media is biased. I think I did my digging though. I suspect Israel intentionally provokes the palestinians to prevent a peace deal… but I still blame the Palestinians for responding to the provocations. I just don’t have much sympathy for people who fight wars they can’t win. It’s a sin in Christianity to fight a war you know you can’t win.
When someone attacks you, what should you do? Even though you have no hope of “winning” isn’t it natural to fight back?
 
There are three Muslim opinions that have been loudly heard in this forum. Hamba2han espouses the destruction of Israel. Both you and Muslim Woman put the blame entirely on Israel. I was about to lean with some sympathy for the cause of Palestinians in this war but if the three of you represents the general attitude and views of Muslims at large I am about to think that Muslims are unable to reason the reality of this war.

In Hamba I thought I saw an honest emotional attachment to Muslims ideal of wanting to destroy Israel and in you and Muslim Woman, either an incapability of seeing the war impartially or you are just sprouting cyber propaganda. I thought it is most likely the latter. If that’s the case it’s too bad because you seem to be the only voice of reason here and you are about to lose that.

That we don’t care that children are being massacred? What on earth are you talking about? Of course we care about children, anyone for that matter, being killed. I can understand your concerns and sentiment but without ever acknowledging the cruelty that Hamas have done to their own people, I cannot anymore think that you ever understand this war.

Have you ever thought how Hamas sent their finest young men and women to die on suicide mission? I care for those Palestinian young men and women. Have you ever thought about the Israelis who were killed by Hamas mortar being fired indiscriminately into civilian areas? I care about those civilians being killed. Have you ever thought about the bystanders and the children, yes Israeli children, being killed by Hamas suicide bombers? I care for those Israeli children as I care about the Palestinian children who are killed in this war.

Unless and until your compassion is for people killed on both sides, as all of them are people, instead of only for Hamas and Palestinians, I don ‘t think Muslims like you can be taken seriously or as negotiating partners for peace. Now I can understand the problem that Israel has with Muslim Hamas.
I think it’s as stupid as you do that Hamas is firing rockets at Israel. (Rockets that cannot be aimed, mind you. They fall where they fall.)

I just wonder if anyone is asking the question: WHY is Hamas firing rockets in the first place?

I’ll say it again. Hamas didn’t fire rockets during the cease-fire–even Israel admits that. But then Israel broke the cease-fire.
 
When someone attacks you, what should you do? Even though you have no hope of “winning” isn’t it natural to fight back?
Fighting back when you can’t win isn’t only wrong, it causes you more problems than you had to begin with. Now instead of persecuting you, your enemy can kill you too.

Here is the Christian just war theory:

In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met:

"1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  1. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
  1. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" [CCC 2309].
 
If we let a neutral person judge, I am sure that person will side with the Palestinian Muslims (I believed that Palestine is not for Muslims alone) because of the disproportionate damages and casualties. However, we need to look into some of the points why is that so. My own opinion based on the knowledge that I have known so far is that the conflict is too complex at this point of time due to the fact that the we are the new generation and inorder to know what what happened in the past must be brought back inroder for us to completely understand.
1: There is no such thing as a “neutral person” in this conflict.
2: That “Palestine (sic) is not for Muslims alone” is a truth with huge modifications. Try asking the Christian Arabs who have fled the West Bank and Gaza about that. The remaining Christians are being harassed worse than any Arabs in Israel, and some are even martyred.
 
I don’t expect this to persuade anybody, but I believe it like I believe the sun will come up in the morning,so here goes.

There are lots of forces in the Middle East. Some are pretty good. Some are just plain evil. Some are criminal. The ME has its own internal antipathies and struggles, and it has the one with Israel. If Israel went away tomorrow, other reasons to fight would take over. Not the least of them is the Iranian bid for power outside its borders, which many Sunni Arabs view with increasing concern.

Many, many Arabs are not particularly uncomfortable with Israel or Israelis. But over there, it’s risky to admit it because there are so many gunmen and assassins around. Some are Islamist radicals. Some are just plain criminals. Some are vying for political power and money. Some are a mixture of all three.

Arab governments are weak for many reasons, not the least of them being that the whole place is fundamentally tribal. A Palestinian is, among them, defined as a person who is a member of one of the tribes traditionally having the majority of its membership in Gaza, Israel, West Bank or Jordan, or some or all of them.

Jordan fundamentally gets along with Israel, notwithstanding that the majority of Jordanians are “Palestinians”. There is a lot more business done between Israelis and Palestinians than most care to admit, and there are actually pretty good relationships among many of them. It’s not all Hamas vs the IDF.

Those who don’t really have a dog in the political/religious/criminal fights know the area could be very prosperous but for the gunmen and the organizations that pay for them. For the western Levant, Israel could be an economic powerhouse which could benefit all. Sometimes its presence does confer significant economic benefits on the Arab neighbors. As I said, there’s a lot more trade going on than people acknowledge, and that area could be very prosperous if it had peace and the rule of law. But there is a lot more murder and outright gangland activity going on, too, than people often realize.

Things shift. This week, some organization might be accommodating. Next week, it might change. The week after, an offshoot might split out, seemingly related to the first one, but not really. Factions control neighborhoods like gangs do in the U.S. But so do tribes. Sometimes those power structures overlap and sometimes they are at war with one another. The more criminal organizations like to keep the populations impoverished in order to better control them. The tribes don’t, but are extremely jealous of their tribal structures. Some tribes have “roles” in the larger socieities, almost like “castes” in India. So,for example, a tribe that has traditionally been entreprenurial is expected to be entrepreneurial and is virtually “licensed” to deal with Israel, but not to talk about it. Others can’t do that.

Foreign money causes a lot of what’s going on. Fatah is loosely supported by Arab oil states. Hamas is virtually a wholly-owned subsidiary of Iran.

Israel absolutely will not just go away. Arabs who deal with them know that. Israelis are tough and clever. But they’re also regarded as people whose word is good. Many is the “handshake deal” between an Israeli businessman and a Palestinian businessman. But the ME idea of “good faith” is a bit different from ours. Cleverness in “cheating without cheating” is often admired.

Those Arabs whose interest is commercial or industrial would like to see the gangs go away, and don’t care too much how it happens. If Israel or the U.S. or anybody else swept them away, many Arabs would holler about it, but would be pleased to see it and would love to see the result. The one thing most Arabs do not want to see is a greater Iranian presence in the eastern Mediterranean. But who is going to throw them out? There is no answer to that yet. One notices that Egypt and Jordan do not intervene in Israel’s fight with Hamas, and that Egypt blockades Gaza and Jordan will not knowingly allow Hamas activities within its borders.

Finally, it needs to be realized that the Middle East is, in some ways, a smaller place than it seems to us. Those who are in business, industry or government all know each other quite well personally, and people move around, as one might expect in an area where everyone speaks the same language. Palestinians, in particular, being well-educated and coming from a sort of entreprenurial society, are all over the Middle East. It’s fun sometimes to google an entreprenurial Palestinian family (tribal) name with which one is familiar. One finds them living and doing business everywhere. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, the Emirates, Egypt, Iraq. Just everywhere. The U.S. too. Not Iran, though.
 
When someone attacks you, what should you do? Even though you have no hope of “winning” isn’t it natural to fight back?
Maybe this is a cultural thing…

In muslim societies, if someone robbing you threatens you with a gun, do you submit, or do you fight back? Here we usually will submit (extreme situations being the exception) and give them our money or whatever they want.
 
Fighting back when you can’t win isn’t only wrong, it causes you more problems than you had to begin with. Now instead of persecuting you, your enemy can kill you too.

Here is the Christian just war theory:

In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met:

"1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  1. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
  1. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" [CCC 2309].
So, let’s suppose that you and your daughter (I don’t know if you have a daughter, please bear with this hypothetical question) are walking at night and a gang attacks you–several men. The beat you and begin to rape your daughter.

Shouldn’t you fight back?

Or is it wrong?

In my view, self-defense is never wrong, not even if it kills you. Because in my view oppression is worse than slaughter.
 
Maybe this is a cultural thing…

In muslim societies, if someone robbing you threatens you with a gun, do you submit, or do you fight back? Here we usually will submit (extreme situations being the exception) and give them our money or whatever they want.
Well in a perfect world everyone would fight the robber and die
 
I don’t expect this to persuade anybody, but I believe it like I believe the sun will come up in the morning,so here goes.

There are lots of forces in the Middle East. Some are pretty good. Some are just plain evil. Some are criminal. The ME has its own internal antipathies and struggles, and it has the one with Israel. If Israel went away tomorrow, other reasons to fight would take over. Not the least of them is the Iranian bid for power outside its borders, which many Sunni Arabs view with increasing concern.

Many, many Arabs are not particularly uncomfortable with Israel or Israelis. But over there, it’s risky to admit it because there are so many gunmen and assassins around. Some are Islamist radicals. Some are just plain criminals. Some are vying for political power and money. Some are a mixture of all three.

Arab governments are weak for many reasons, not the least of them being that the whole place is fundamentally tribal. A Palestinian is, among them, defined as a person who is a member of one of the tribes traditionally having the majority of its membership in Gaza, Israel, West Bank or Jordan, or some or all of them.

Jordan fundamentally gets along with Israel, notwithstanding that the majority of Jordanians are “Palestinians”. There is a lot more business done between Israelis and Palestinians than most care to admit, and there are actually pretty good relationships among many of them. It’s not all Hamas vs the IDF.

Those who don’t really have a dog in the political/religious/criminal fights know the area could be very prosperous but for the gunmen and the organizations that pay for them. For the western Levant, Israel could be an economic powerhouse which could benefit all. Sometimes its presence does confer significant economic benefits on the Arab neighbors. As I said, there’s a lot more trade going on than people acknowledge, and that area could be very prosperous if it had peace and the rule of law. But there is a lot more murder and outright gangland activity going on, too, than people often realize.

Things shift. This week, some organization might be accommodating. Next week, it might change. The week after, an offshoot might split out, seemingly related to the first one, but not really. Factions control neighborhoods like gangs do in the U.S. But so do tribes. Sometimes those power structures overlap and sometimes they are at war with one another. The more criminal organizations like to keep the populations impoverished in order to better control them. The tribes don’t, but are extremely jealous of their tribal structures. Some tribes have “roles” in the larger socieities, almost like “castes” in India. So,for example, a tribe that has traditionally been entreprenurial is expected to be entrepreneurial and is virtually “licensed” to deal with Israel, but not to talk about it. Others can’t do that.

Foreign money causes a lot of what’s going on. Fatah is loosely supported by Arab oil states. Hamas is virtually a wholly-owned subsidiary of Iran.

Israel absolutely will not just go away. Arabs who deal with them know that. Israelis are tough and clever. But they’re also regarded as people whose word is good. Many is the “handshake deal” between an Israeli businessman and a Palestinian businessman. But the ME idea of “good faith” is a bit different from ours. Cleverness in “cheating without cheating” is often admired.

Those Arabs whose interest is commercial or industrial would like to see the gangs go away, and don’t care too much how it happens. If Israel or the U.S. or anybody else swept them away, many Arabs would holler about it, but would be pleased to see it and would love to see the result. The one thing most Arabs do not want to see is a greater Iranian presence in the eastern Mediterranean. But who is going to throw them out? There is no answer to that yet. One notices that Egypt and Jordan do not intervene in Israel’s fight with Hamas, and that Egypt blockades Gaza and Jordan will not knowingly allow Hamas activities within its borders.

Finally, it needs to be realized that the Middle East is, in some ways, a smaller place than it seems to us. Those who are in business, industry or government all know each other quite well personally, and people move around, as one might expect in an area where everyone speaks the same language. Palestinians, in particular, being well-educated and coming from a sort of entreprenurial society, are all over the Middle East. It’s fun sometimes to google an entreprenurial Palestinian family (tribal) name with which one is familiar. One finds them living and doing business everywhere. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, the Emirates, Egypt, Iraq. Just everywhere. The U.S. too. Not Iran, though.
You know what?

Palestinians took in Jews during WWII, while the Nazis were persecuting them. Palestinians took in Jews when every other nation turned them away. The Palestinians let them migrate to Palestine, to free them from oppression and persecution in Europe.

Thta’s what people don’t realize. The Jews immigrated to Palestine, and now they are kicking out the Palestinians. (Not all of the Jews, mind you, as many of them, I’m sure, have no problems living in peace with their Arab neighbors). But the government of Israel is exterminating the Palestinians, and taking their land.

That is the problem.
 
You know what?

Palestinians took in Jews during WWII, while the Nazis were persecuting them. Palestinians took in Jews when every other nation turned them away. The Palestinians let them migrate to Palestine, to free them from oppression and persecution in Europe.
BS, and if you had any knowledge of history that came from somewhere else than Hamas, you’d know it.

1: “Palestinians” did nothing at all during WW2, because the term was not used by anyone about the Arab residents of the area until after the royal caning the Arabs got in the Six Day War

2: The BRITISH allowed LIMITED immigration to what was then the Palestine-mandate under British control. But nowhere near all that came to the area to flee Europe were admitted - because of the way the Arabs acted up.

3: EVERY other nation turned Jewish refugees away? BS!
The US took a lot of Jews fleeing Europe (but not all), as did Sweden, Denmark (until the Germans came…oh, and we also, as the only country in Europe, saved the Jews from deportation!), Switzerland…
Thta’s what people don’t realize. The Jews immigrated to Palestine, and now they are kicking out the Palestinians.
BS. The Arabs who chose to stay after the proclamation of the State of Israel were granted FULL CITIZENSHIP, with all the rights and priviledges thereof!

If you want to talk about kicking people out, let’s turn to the Arab states who, after the proclamation of the State of Israel, forced some 700.000 Jews to flee the areas they’ve inhabited for centuries. Oddly enough, these 700.000 people did not end up in some God-forsaken refugee camp, because they were integrated into Israeli society. If the Arab states had done the same with the Arabs who they had called upon to get out of the way of their armies, the Arabic refugee-problem would not exist. But they didn’t, and thereby left the Arabs holding the baby.
(Not all of the Jews, mind you, as many of them, I’m sure, have no problems living in peace with their Arab neighbors). But the government of Israel is exterminating the Palestinians, and taking their land.

That is the problem.
BS!
Please document that Israel is exterminating the Arabs. It’s just plain propaganda, and you have to think that we’re morons if you believe we’re stupid enough to fall for it.

IF Israel wanted to exterminate the Arabs

1: There would not be about a million Arabs with Israeli citizenship and full rights.
2: There would be no effort made to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
3: THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SO A LONG TIME AGO.

All in all, a two-letter abbreviation can sum up your entire post: BS!
 
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