Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

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dzheremi said:
Wait a minute, wait a minute…why exactly does the effect of this war not matter just because its roots are political rather than religious? :confused:

People being killed in war always matters, unless you’re trying to make the point that this war is being fought for nothing.
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Political justifications of killing in war may be justified when the actions in killing is not deliberate to kill without reasons, like attacking militants without knowing that civilians are around. I was responding to a claim that politics are to blame for Israelis to attack Gaza, and religion has nothing to do with it.

One of my post stated that it can not only mean political because the whole story in the Middles east has something to do with our religious backgrounds also. In Christianity, I know that killing is killing and no matter how you justify it it is still contrary to the doctrine of the Church. Which is why we Christians are opposed to any form of killings. If a Muslim then say that it is a political move then it meant that the Israelis have the right to defend itself in order to suppressed further incursion of the rockets fired by Hamas who openly declared not to accept Israel’s Statehood. This statement is not conducive to peace and not right mind will trust those who said it.

We have been in Peace negotiations as far as our recollections can think of but it seemed no two people are alike. PLO made it, while Hamas and its sponsors seemed not in agreement with their peaceful loving West Bank compatriots. Did Israel attacked Gaza without reason? I don’t think so!
 
rikkk1958 said:
Political justifications of killing in war may be justified when the actions in killing is not deliberate to kill without reasons, like attacking militants without knowing that civilians are around. I was responding to a claim that politics are to blame for Israelis to attack Gaza, and religion has nothing to do with it.

One of my post stated that it can not only mean political because the whole story in the Middles east has something to do with our religious backgrounds also. In Christianity, I know that killing is killing and no matter how you justify it it is still contrary to the doctrine of the Church. Which is why we Christians are opposed to any form of killings. If a Muslim then say that it is a political move then it meant that the Israelis have the right to defend itself in order to suppressed further incursion of the rockets fired by Hamas who openly declared not to accept Israel’s Statehood. This statement is not conducive to peace and not right mind will trust those who said it.

We have been in Peace negotiations as far as our recollections can think of but it seemed no two people are alike. PLO made it, while Hamas and its sponsors seemed not in agreement with their peaceful loving West Bank compatriots. Did Israel attacked Gaza without reason? I don’t think so!
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What if they say it is religious? (in islam it is both, but just say - what if they admit to it being religious - and they do whenever they say ‘allahu akbar’) What do you think Israel has a right to do then?

Now, here is the reason why they have the right to protect themselves no matter what the reasons for the attackers are - they are being attacked and their citizens are being killed. They have a right to defend themselves. And if that means taking extraordinary methods to stop future attacks then they have that right because if it is indeed religious (which it is) then no matter what they do to stop it temporarily - it will start up again. And in islam it will indeed start up again because the base teaching is to never let a cease fire/truce go longer than 10 years and it can be broken whenever the muslims are rearmed/regrouped - a hudna.

And personnally, I think they should be taking the lot of them and dropping them into saudi arabia.
 
If I think Islam is a religion of peace am I wrong?

If my Muslim friends are considerate, tolerating and generous are they not Muslims?

Edit: Oh and it’s weird nobody posted this yet:
The Palestinian militant group Hamas has announced an immediate ceasefire with Israel in Gaza.
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A statement read by a Hamas spokesman said the group would hold fire for a week to give Israel time to withdraw its forces from the Gaza Strip.
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The move came hours after a unilateral Israeli ceasefire came into effect.
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Some Israeli troops have begun pulling out of the Gaza Strip. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel wanted to leave Gaza “as soon as possible”.
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Earlier, there was more rocket fire from Gaza into Israel.
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‘Ceasefire’
 
Parabol said:
If I think Islam is a religion of peace am I wrong?

If my Muslim friends are considerate, tolerating and generous are they not Muslims?
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The difference, as has been consistantly pointed out by many people here, is that individual Muslims do not decide what Islamic scripture says regarding treatment of non-Muslims, women, or any other aspect of Islam that is controversial when approaching inter-faith relations. So while individual Muslims may be entirely peace loving and reject violence or violent interpretations of their scripture, there is not yet in the Muslim world the sort of culture that would allow for the open debate on the role of Islam in civil society.

To suggest that Islam does not necessitate the type of mass slaughter of innocents undertaken by Al-Qaeda is not controversial. To suggest that Islam can not be used to justify any violent act against anyone regardless of their faith, political affiliation, gender, or anything else is seen as anti-Islamic, because in fact Islam itself preserves such distinctions. There is nothing such as “there is neither Jew nor Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus” in the Islamic scriptures, at least not that has been presented to me here (I would welcome any such verse from the Qur’an in response to this, by the way; I really WANT to be wrong here), so whether or not you can say Islam itself is peaceful (rather than that individual Muslims are peaceful) is not so clear. As Sister Amy has pointed out in the past (and I am paraphasing based on what I can remember), any Muslim who would deny the necessity of jihad is effectively not a Muslim.

Islam requires violence, but to Muslims the contexts under which legitimate violence can be undertaken are self-evident (one need only concievably reasonably feel oneself “oppressed” or “insulted” in one way or another, as the example of Muhammad showed violence spurred from both contexts). So when you ask them, they will probably say “no”, because Islamic violence is always contextually justified.
 
Hamas security forces opened fire Monday during a mass memorial service for the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, and at least six people were killed in the ensuing violence.

If there aren’t any Jews to kill they kill their own. But remember, Islam is peaceful and non-violent as our forum Muslims remind us.
 
Parabol said:
If I think Islam is a religion of peace am I wrong?

If my Muslim friends are considerate, tolerating and generous are they not Muslims?

Edit: Oh and it’s weird nobody posted this yet:

‘Ceasefire’
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Tension eased in southern Israel, the target of Palestinian rocket fire, even though Hamas launched nearly 20 rockets in a final salvo before announcing a cease-fire. Three Israelis were lightly wounded, while two Palestinians were killed in last-minute fighting, medics said.
 
^ Indeed, Hamas wanted to execute their short-term plans before submitting to a ceasefire.
dzheremi said:
The difference, as has been consistantly pointed out by many people here, is that individual Muslims do not decide what Islamic scripture says regarding treatment of non-Muslims, women, or any other aspect of Islam that is controversial when approaching inter-faith relations. So while individual Muslims may be entirely peace loving and reject violence or violent interpretations of their scripture, there is not yet in the Muslim world the sort of culture that would allow for the open debate on the role of Islam in civil society.

To suggest that Islam does not necessitate the type of mass slaughter of innocents undertaken by Al-Qaeda is not controversial. To suggest that Islam can not be used to justify any violent act against anyone regardless of their faith, political affiliation, gender, or anything else is seen as anti-Islamic, because in fact Islam itself preserves such distinctions. There is nothing such as “there is neither Jew nor Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus” in the Islamic scriptures, at least not that has been presented to me here (I would welcome any such verse from the Qur’an in response to this, by the way; I really WANT to be wrong here), so whether or not you can say Islam itself is peaceful (rather than that individual Muslims are peaceful) is not so clear. As Sister Amy has pointed out in the past (and I am paraphasing based on what I can remember), any Muslim who would deny the necessity of jihad is effectively not a Muslim.

Islam requires violence, but to Muslims the contexts under which legitimate violence can be undertaken are self-evident (one need only concievably reasonably feel oneself “oppressed” or “insulted” in one way or another, as the example of Muhammad showed violence spurred from both contexts). So when you ask them, they will probably say “no”, because Islamic violence is always contextually justified.
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There’s the answer…
 
Violence and jihad are not equivalent terms.

Jihad can be and frequently is non-violent.

And violence can only very seldom qualify as jihad–only if it is meeting a specific number of conditions.

Violent jihad, or military jihad, is not something that can legitimately exist in the world today.

I’m not denying the importance of jihad, or the necessity of it… but as things stand today in the world, Muslims are not ready for jihad.
 
You guys are all biased, to hell with your peaceful “alternatives.” If any country invades yours you have every right to defend it! Hamas is just doing what it has every right to do!

Eg. The western offensive of “War on Terror,” where yes, many Middle Easterners are resorting to terrorism, eg 9/11

however:

Declining Palestine the most basic of human rights, not to mention countless infringements of the Geneva Convention, is itself terrorism!

In a desperate circumstance Palestine is, its only option is violence.

(please, please, please do not consider me a radical, but it is an inconvenient truth) i will be blunt.

it was only when the dead troops come back in coffins did the people finally realise! I shall give America for an example; war in: Afganistan, Iraq- Vietnam. The truth is in bearable but true. America is leaving/ planning on leaving.

Those who follow the peaceful alternative are left standing by the road- eg. Tibet: who even cares for Tibet now? …China doesn’t look like its going to be leaving soon :dts:
 
aldgh said:
FREE FREE PALESTINE!!!

Hello everyone, i am a proud supporter of Palestine. What Israel and America have done to them are just Atrocious!!! SHAME!

“Israel, USA, how many kids have you killed today?!!!” To Israel: Dear murderers, how much more land do you wish to take over today? Would you care to kill some more civilians?

I write with passion, and as a Catholic, i urge you seek who is the victim here.

Hamas is doing what it has every right to do: resisit an occupying army. But when you face F16’s, Apache Helicopters what else do you expect Hamas to do? Throw rocks? Them firing rockets is nothing compared to the utter humiliation the Palestinian people face.

This is a matter of Western Hypocrisy, weren’t the U.S “permitted” to drop 2 (two) NUCLEAR BOMBS IN HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI? ! … the utter destruction of Dresden?

Israel does not want to seek peace, they refuse to negotiate with Hamas.

I live in Australia, but am completely ashamed of my Country for also supporting this murderous, racist state: Israel.

FREE PALESTINE~!
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Seems you’re upset why some posters here support the cause of the state of Israel. Maybe you should watch and listen to this Jewish Rabbi who gave a valuable insight why most Christians (Well people, its about time) support this tiny state that offends you and your beliefs.
 
R_not said:
You compare the Palestinians to us?!?! If you do that then you should be bringing in the Hamas, and the other Arabs from Saudi Arabia, as comparable to the Japanese then.
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Don’t insult the Japanese. 😦 They attacked a military target, although there were civilian casualties also. The pigs and dogs in Hamas ONLY target civilians, and hides behind their own civilians, because they are too cowardly to fight the IDF like men.
 
Sam_777 said:
:mad:
They are “deceived people”.
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:rolleyes:
Were Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler, etc also just “decieved people”?
The only reason Hamas hasn’t finished what those three started is because they’re unable to…
 
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Salaam/peace
aldgh said:
… If any country invades yours you have every right to defend it!
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“If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms-never-never-never” -

William Pitt, Earl of Chatham (1708&78) On Affairs in America 1777

informationclearinghouse.info/
 
Salaam/peace
dzheremi said:
… There is nothing such as “there is neither Jew nor Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus” in the Islamic scriptures, .
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…if someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind… (Qur’an, 5:32)

Why Do You Kill Zaid?

The West is much more violent than the Muslim world. Millions of Arab civilians have been killed since colonialism began…The West must treat the Muslim world just as fairly as it treats Israel. Muslims are worth as much as Jews and Christians

By Jürgen Todenhöfer

informationclearinghouse.info/article21217.htm
 
Most of the west doesn’t have corporal punishment the ‘Muslim world’ on the other hand encourages it. Of course Muslims are worth as much as any other person, but Hamas and other Radical Islam groups do not believe Christians and Jews and non-believers are worthy of being called human. Yes there are Jews who believe one Israeli life is worth 1000 Palestinians, but not all.

Hamas’ children’s TV show

Also, about saying Hamas is justified for fighting back, if I entertain that idea, can I not then say Israel is justified for retaliating also?
 
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