Pants! ...and my pride

[mlouise007]

The Priest today was homilying on the Virgin Martyr and modesty. He said it was on women to remain modest… It’s not that mini skirt is good or modest, but, pants are more immodest on a woman and more unnatural…

… I am typically the only female who wears pants at Mass, but, I think he meant, regardless, just in general, it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants. He said that a Minor Prophet mentioned that the end of the world would come when women started dressing like men (and he pointed out that this became common in the 1950s)…

Do I have reason to be concerned?

Has this priest approached you in the past to speak with you about this concern privately? We only have your point of view of course, but given that, if a priest would choose to speak as you describe it here, when only one (yourself), or even two or three women wear pants I personally would find that painfully lacking in an appropriate sense of the pastoral role of priestly vocation.

I’ve learned a lot from the teachings of Father Thomas J Loya. He has done some wonderful work on the Theology of the Body. Here is a short clip that give a taste of the way he approaches modesty. For more see his DVD “The Theology of the Body and Art”. This sermon as you describe it seems to have swung off into the poles of dualism Fr. Loya describes. I’d say go and ask this priest the questions you’ve asked us. You may have misunderstood what he was saying since he clearly “pushed your buttons” and once that happens it can be pretty hard to hear anything clearly. Once you clarify what he intended in this teaching then decide if that’s the kind of teaching you want.

I personally think pants can be perfectly modest and many dresses entirely immodest. It really depends on the outfit and the attitude. I’ve recently been appreciating some very good videos on YouTube by young Muslim women talking about dignity and dress.

He said, “Mini skirts are to fornication what pants are to sodomy.”

Boy do I have no idea what that means, nor do I want to know.

 

[Bluegoat]

Actually one of the reasons priests wear garb like that is because of their special dignity. It is recognized as an unusual wear, not fitting for the average man, and tending towards what is more fitting for the female, towards that type of garment.

So, it is not a contradiction, but a part of the entire understanding of what is worn by who.

This is just not true. The reason vestments and cassocks are dress-like is because those used to be common things for men to wear - not just priests. They reflect clothing trends at the time they began to be used. In many places, especially hot places, men still wear those kinds of things. Pants are also more complicated to make than robes, which is another reason they were at one time less common.

Clothing styles always have socially created aspects - the question is how do the social aspects you need to deal with in your place and time reflect on modesty? Women’s clothing overall in the West tends to try to be “sexy” so that is what you need to look out for. Pants and skirts both reflect this in many cases. But pants on women are not cases, in our present culture, of attempts to cross-dress.

As far as someone saying women wearing pants is a sign of the end-times; take this as seriously as any other claims we are in the end times. If it was a priest, I would report it to the bishop.

In your case, I wouldn’t go to that priest for anything - his theology has serious problems.

 

[mini_me640]

The idea that pants are automatically immodest and skirts are more modest doesn’t make sense to me. Most of the umm… “easy” looking girls I know parade around in little skirts. If pants aren’t form fitting they can certainly be as modest or more so than skirts. It all depends on the individual garment.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

For some women, the wearing of skirts and dresses as opposed to slacks makes them feel closer to God, more modest and more feminine. For others, the wearing of skirts and dresses gives them a sense of superiority over those “mannish” women that wear slacks.

For some men, a woman wearing a skirt or a dress reminds them to treat that woman with dignity and respect. For others, the criticizing of women who wear pants is just another way to label them as “feminists” and inferior beings.

All I would suggest is that people look carefully at their true motivations when they start discussing this issue.

Ideally, I think both women and men should discuss their clothing issues with their confessor if they have concerns. You’re more likely to get information that is not personal choice.

 

[pickguard1]

However, if he is saying that it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants, then that is his personal opinion and is not Church teaching. The Catechism states that we are to dress modestly, but acknowledges that the form taken can vary between cultures.

Additionally, I have attended FSSP parishes in the United States and Europe, and have seen no restrictions on or preaching against pants.

Amen. Clothing (fashion) changes over time in different cultures. The agument can be made that some changes are harmful (girls wearing lingerie as outerwear), but I think that “modesty” has more to do with one’s overall appearance than with a particular type of clothing. The point is clear when referring to dresses/skirts. In general, they are a “feminine” item of clothing in most Western countries (but don’t forget about the Scottish and their kilts - which to western eyes seem to be the same as a skirt). However, what makes one modest is not wearing a skirt, but wearing a skirt that is modest. I think the same thing goes for pants, or shorts, or shirts. The point of modesty is to dress one’s body so that it doesn’t appeal to the purient interests of someone else. From a cultural standpoint this can mean different things (and historically has). For example - at one point in Western cultures (and still in some others) it was immodest to show an ankle. Now I dont’ know about anyone here, but seeing a woman’s ankle doesn’t make me think about fornication.

I don’t think the aim of modesty should be for all people to end up wearing burqas.

As an afterthought, I find myself often wishing women would wear looser fitting clothes, not so that I wouldn’t be attracted to them of have impure thoughts, but rather to keep me from gagging on how UNattractive they look. In this sense, wearing a nice dress and blouse might make some men MORE likely to have impure thoughts since they wouldn’t be immediately repulsed.

Again, I think that pants on women are fine if they are modest. My wife has worn pants to Mass on occasion (we attent and FSSP Mass) and while she was definitely in the minority, I don’t remember anyone saying anything let alone the priest. My wife definitely still looks like a woman when she wears pants, and they’re just as modest as a dress.

 

[RedSoxWife]

The Priest today was homilying on the Virgin Martyr and modesty. He said it was on women to remain modest. He mentioned that some priest said that pants were unnatural and this priest (could have been the one he was quoting) said that mini-skirts were more natural than pants. (A mini skirt is work trying to attract a mate, you see…which is natural). It’s not that mini skirt is good or modest, but, pants are more immodest on a woman and more unnatural. He said, “Mini skirts are to fornication what pants are to sodomy.”

This is severe. I am typically the only female who wears pants at Mass, but, I think he meant, regardless, just in general, it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants. He said that a Minor Prophet mentioned that the end of the world would come when women started dressing like men (and he pointed out that this became common in the 1950s).

The priest is FSSP. I am very upset over this, but, if I’m in the wrong… I don’t want to go to Hell because I love pants/jeans/shorts instead of skirts/dresses, and, if they are immodest, and Our Lady said that more people will go to Hell for immodesty than any other reason…

This concerns me.

Do I have reason to be concerned?

Also, how many of the rest of the female Traditionalists here wear pants ever…or at Mass? OR, are you a male Traditionalist who goes to a TLM and see women who go to the Mass there with you and you are upset and disgusted that they wear pants.

I wouldn’t agree that mini skirts are better than pants, because some pants hardly look like pants (I have a loose pair of pants that look more like a skirt) and mini skirts are pretty bad across the board.

However, I tend to wear skirts and dresses (that are at least knee length) when I go out and pants around the house and in the garden. We live in a very rural area and the chances of running into anyone, even miles away from the house are very slim.

Modesty threads always seem to evoke very passionate feelings on both sides, so I’m sure your going to get lots of advice both ways. I began wearing more dresses because I feel uncomfortable wearing pants in public most of the time. It was something that happened gradually over time and I do still occasionally wear pants. I just find myself less comfortable these days when I do, because I worry, and this causes me to wear skirts.

Prayer for guidance helps (it was a slow process for me and I don’t think it’s complete yet), as would talking to a priest (perhaps a different priest if there’s one available, from the one who gave the homily) about the issue and seeing what he has to say.

 

[adstrinity]

Which part? This one?

Or this one?

I was simply talking about non-Catholic men when I said

And I meant this: if a girl presents herself as nothing but a piece of meat, is it any surprise that non-Catholic men will turn into dogs? On the other hand, if a girl acts like a lady, then the guy will have no choice but to treat her like one, or go find some other girl who he can objectify.

Pretty much the entire post. It reminded me of the, “she was asking for it,” defense. If a girl acts like a lady the guy will have no choice but to treat her like one is a logical fallacy. If I was paying attention, that 12 year old girl the priest was talking about was very modest as were other virgin martyrs; that didn’t stop the attackers from wanting to rape them/attempting to rape them and then kill them.

I’m plus sized myself. Have you checked out www.holyclothing.com ? They carry stuff up to size 7x and have some modest dresses ( not all of their stuff is) along with skirts and tops.

No I haven’t. I didn’t know this site existed! I have it opened in a new tab and will check it out after this post. Thank you so much for this!

If you are unsure you should ask your priest to clarify exactly what he meant, rather than guessing. It’s entirely possible that you missed his overall point.

However, if he is saying that it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants, then that is his personal opinion and is not Church teaching. The Catechism states that we are to dress modestly, but acknowledges that the form taken can vary between cultures.

Additionally, I have attended FSSP parishes in the United States and Europe, and have seen no restrictions on or preaching against pants.

Thank you for this, and thank you all who have said this and contributed to this thread. That’s what I thought. I think at one point he said that it’s not right even if we do it in our own house in front of only our family, but, I’m not entirely sure. I think he said it’s still not okay. He also said that just because the women wear skirts or dresses doesn’t mean they should think themselves better than anybody, not the women of the NO Mass, not the Protestants, not non-Christian women. He did make the statment during the Homily though, at the atrocity of women wearing pants, that, “Not even the Protestants would have done this,” prior to the 1950s. It came about, I think through Hollywood or something…I don’t know…he was talking, I’m not sure how much of it my brain wanted to retain correctly.

Has this priest approached you in the past to speak with you about this concern privately? We only have your point of view of course, but given that, if a priest would choose to speak as you describe it here, when only one (yourself), or even two or three women wear pants I personally would find that painfully lacking in an appropriate sense of the pastoral role of priestly vocation.

I’ve learned a lot from the teachings of Father Thomas J Loya. He has done some wonderful work on the Theology of the Body. Here is a short clip that give a taste of the way he approaches modesty. For more see his DVD “The Theology of the Body and Art”. This sermon as you describe it seems to have swung off into the poles of dualism Fr. Loya describes. I’d say go and ask this priest the questions you’ve asked us. You may have misunderstood what he was saying since he clearly “pushed your buttons” and once that happens it can be pretty hard to hear anything clearly. Once you clarify what he intended in this teaching then decide if that’s the kind of teaching you want.

I personally think pants can be perfectly modest and many dresses entirely immodest. It really depends on the outfit and the attitude. I’ve recently been appreciating some very good videos on YouTube by young Muslim women talking about dignity and dress.

Boy do I have no idea what that means, nor do I want to know.

I think I should talk to this priest. I was so upset (and, maybe it was me just taking things personally) that I couldn’t concentrate much on the Eucharist (I couldn’t take, I haven’t gone to Confession in two weeks because the other priest is away and Fr. has to hear Confession and Celebrate). I was asking God for…I don’t even remember at this time, but, I know it was in regards to the Homily because my reaction, I feel, is like a child throwing a rattle out of his/her pram and turning red. I became defensive, but, at the same time, I thought this was a non-issue that, should I succumb, I’d be doing it for the wrong reasons and not of my own free will. I HATE skirts/dresses. Maybe this could be part of my suffering?

Anyway, the statment he made about mini-skirts was that they are bad BUT pants are worse.

 

[adstrinity]

For some women, the wearing of skirts and dresses as opposed to slacks makes them feel closer to God, more modest and more feminine. For others, the wearing of skirts and dresses gives them a sense of superiority over those “mannish” women that wear slacks.

For some men, a woman wearing a skirt or a dress reminds them to treat that woman with dignity and respect. For others, the criticizing of women who wear pants is just another way to label them as “feminists” and inferior beings.

All I would suggest is that people look carefully at their true motivations when they start discussing this issue.

Ideally, I think both women and men should discuss their clothing issues with their confessor if they have concerns. You’re more likely to get information that is not personal choice.

Thank you for this post.

I wouldn’t agree that mini skirts are better than pants, because some pants hardly look like pants (I have a loose pair of pants that look more like a skirt) and mini skirts are pretty bad across the board.

However, I tend to wear skirts and dresses (that are at least knee length) when I go out and pants around the house and in the garden. We live in a very rural area and the chances of running into anyone, even miles away from the house are very slim.

Modesty threads always seem to evoke very passionate feelings on both sides, so I’m sure your going to get lots of advice both ways. I began wearing more dresses because I feel uncomfortable wearing pants in public most of the time. It was something that happened gradually over time and I do still occasionally wear pants. I just find myself less comfortable these days when I do, because I worry, and this causes me to wear skirts.

Prayer for guidance helps (it was a slow process for me and I don’t think it’s complete yet), as would talking to a priest (perhaps a different priest if there’s one available, from the one who gave the homily) about the issue and seeing what he has to say.

There are two priests at this parish, this guy came in to help as I heard it was only the other one before. Maybe I should ask the priest who gave the homily if I will go to Hell if I continue to wear pants. I just can’t believe it. I suppose I could later talk to the other priest dependant on what this one says.

This priest, the one who gave the homily, is big on praying the Rosary and morning and evening prayers so, I assume he knows what he’s talking about. I’m not claiming he’s perfect or even that he couldn’t be mistaken, but, I…I guess there is a good reason he said what he said… I just can’t believe it’s that much of an issue. Really? – if it wasn’t for the TLM, I’d still be going to the OF Mass in jean shorts. I at least try to dress more Mass like for the TLM.

Anyway, thank you for your post as well. I will pray about it, I guess. I’m just still so very against this. I am upset because, I am taking it personally and well, !@#$%^, let the priest wear a dress and see how it is. It’s not at all comfortable.

…Clearly I’m in no state to talk to him now, which is good because the church is 1h45m away…

 

[adstrinity]

I think it’s a topic worth thinking about. And I would second Colleen Hammond’s book. It’s interesting, particularly the chapters on Freemasonry and the occult and their influence on fashion. Reading about that was more convincing than any other modesty argument I’ve heard, probably because I’m pigheaded and don’t like feeling like others’ are trying to control me or my behavior.

I’m not disgusted by women who wear pants at Mass, but I do wonder at whether they’ve ever considered skirts. I just think skirts are prettier.

If you’re asking about me personally, I’ve shied away from wearing pants in public. I do feel that they are more immodest than skirts. (But I wouldn’t be caught dead in a mini-skirt, because I think those look ridiculous no matter how cute someone’s bod ). I still wear pants in the privacy of my home, to exercise (which I mostly do in my own home) and to walk the dogs, but I make sure I wear a long top or coat that comes down low and covers most of my upper legs. I would never wear pants to Mass.

I’m not saying you have to do this, but this is what I do and the direction I’ve moved in since trying to cultivate the virtue of modesty in myself. I never thought I’d be one of those skirt people two years ago, but here I am.

Oh, I found the link from CH’s website that has the snippet from her book. You can read it and see if it’d interest you, if you like.

Thank you for this link and for saving me the time and the money I would have wasted on purchasing this book.

 

[TMC]

Ah, next we’ll be talking about the Illuminati and the End Times. Goodness.

To the OP, if that particular priest is a regular, hold new auditions.

Best wishes,

John

I second these thoughts. There is nothing wrong with pants. And where do people get the idea that pants are exclusively for men, either now or ever? And women wearing pants are not dressing like men. Any man that thinks they are should put on a pair of his wife’s pants and see if he still thinks they are men’s clothes. Everyone should dress in clean neat and modest clothing for Mass. There are lots of women’s pants that fit into those categories.

On the other hand, if this pastor has addressed all the problems in his parish that rank above criticizing the women’s clothing, he must have a pretty good community going there!

 

[dove51]

Thank you for this link and for saving me the time and the money I would have wasted on purchasing this book.

Yikes. Not a Colleen Hammond fan, then?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Yikes. Not a Colleen Hammond fan, then?

I read the link too-and I wouldn’t buy the book.

Like I said-if wearing dresses and skirts exclusively works for Ms Hammond and her followers-if it makes them feel closer to God then that’s great for them.

However, when the line starts to cross and those folks become more interested in what everyone else is doing and insinuating that others who do not follow their lead are somehow sinful or “less Catholic”-then it becomes about superiority and control.

 

[Shin]

This is about modesty and what is appropriate wear to men and women, with people of devout faith understanding the deeper meanings behind various clothing styles and their effects on our culture.

It is not about ‘superiority and control’ and various other such sad and precipitous accusations maligning the good people supporting these counter culture changes.

Colleen Hammond’s book is a VERY good book, to work with. There are some good sermons on modesty in the links below too.

People who come at this from afar and having tried to understand why this is important or true, but are closed minded to it, need to realize they are saying EXACTLY what worldly people who are not Catholic automatically say, and think twice, that there might be principles behind this that are worth prayer and a further look.

Society was very different not too long ago… and in many positive ways. Now we live in a much more morally degenerate society. Do we truly have the pride to think we have escaped accepting many things we should not, simply because we were raised in them without thinking of their consequences or understanding what they result in? Do we truly think we are morally superior in wearing whatever we want?

The humble will discover many things, and among them I think they will discover the deeper meanings to modesty that have to do with ‘due mode’ and not just matters of not inciting people, but having the appearance proper to our genders, that cannot be mistaken for any other gender, and which contributes to the virtues and special attributes of that gender.

In other words… clothing that makes men more manly, and so is more honest as to who they are… and clothing that makes women, more womanly, and so is more honest as to who they are, created by God. It brings forth their special virtues and gathers special respect because people appear as they are meant to be created by God.

 

[dove51]

In other words… clothing that makes men more manly, and so is more honest as to who they are… and clothing that makes women, more womanly, and so is more honest as to who they are, created by God. It brings forth their special virtues and gathers special respect because people appear as they are meant to be created by God.

You said it so much better than I ever could.

Speaking of, there’s a really awesome gal on the blogosphere whose stuff I read often, and she has some excellent posts on modesty and skirts vs. pants. I think they are so worth reading.

 

[adstrinity]

Yikes. Not a Colleen Hammond fan, then?

Not this book at least. And let me tell you why. It is inappropriately researched, or at least, written. She includes her own opinions in there and not enough facts. She speaks down to the Reader. She was including Greeks and Romans and Europe. Alright, what about Japan, where it was a merchantile culture there? Kimonos were worn for a reason, but, she doesn’t get into that. What about Africa? There are still, to this day, men and women in tribes who pretty much wear nothing (of course, they do not have the Gospel) only because it is sooooooo hot. It’s not at all about immodesty, it’s about not wanting to die from heat exhaustion…and come to think about it, what about the Innuit? Didn’t their women wear pants?

I’m thinking about this more and more. My Great Aunt (the one who took me to Masses when she had to watch me) wore pants. She grew up with the TLM but, I remember her taking me to the OF Mass because it was 2 blocks from where she lived, i.e., that’s where we walked to on Sunday mornings. I would dare say she was a VERY devout Catholic until her brain got wonky with dimentia and Alzheimers. Also is the Dr. (Professor) who took me to my first Latin Mass at St. John Cantius – I don’t think I have EVER seen her in a skirt, and I KNOW she is a good Catholic woman. She is dilligent in the pro-life movement and she wrote a book, “The Authority of Women In The Catholic Church.”

…I will conceed that that Holy Clothing site is VERY pretty (the clothes) and reasonably priced…had I money, I would be tempted.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Honestly, all clothing covers up what inherently separates the sexes. So why don’t we just go to Mass naked? Then we’ll know for certain who’s a man and who’s a woman.

 

[adstrinity]

You said it so much better than I ever could.

Speaking of, there’s a really awesome gal on the blogosphere whose stuff I read often, and she has some excellent posts on modesty and skirts vs. pants. I think they are so worth reading.

mariancastle.blogspot.com/2006/06/st.html

This seems to be less insulting than the Hammond link, but, in response to number 1) – Jesus never was told to be in slacks either. This is a weak argument.

1. – This is her speculation. This is quite the jump in logic. She doesn’t connect the dots well.

I still took to this better, though.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

This is about modesty and what is appropriate wear to men and women, with people of devout faith understanding the deeper meanings behind various clothing styles and their effects on our culture.

It is not about ‘superiority and control’ and various other such sad and precipitous accusations maligning the good people supporting these counter culture changes.

Colleen Hammond’s book is a VERY good book, to work with. There are some good sermons on modesty in the links below too.

People who come at this from afar and having tried to understand why this is important or true, but are closed minded to it, need to realize they are saying EXACTLY what worldly people who are not Catholic automatically say, and think twice, that there might be principles behind this that are worth prayer and a further look.

Society was very different not too long ago… and in many positive ways. Now we live in a much more morally degenerate society. Do we truly have the pride to think we have escaped accepting many things we should not, simply because we were raised in them without thinking of their consequences or understanding what they result in? Do we truly think we are morally superior in wearing whatever we want?

The humble will discover many things, and among them I think they will discover the deeper meanings to modesty that have to do with ‘due mode’ and not just matters of not inciting people, but having the appearance proper to our genders, that cannot be mistaken for any other gender, and which contributes to the virtues and special attributes of that gender.

In other words… clothing that makes men more manly, and so is more honest as to who they are… and clothing that makes women, more womanly, and so is more honest as to who they are, created by God. It brings forth their special virtues and gathers special respect because people appear as they are meant to be created by God.

And this is exactly the attitude I was addressing earlier-you insist on getting judgmental on anyone who hasn’t chosen to agree with what Ms. Hammond says is correct.

If it works for you, that’s wonderful and I’m happy for you. However, that does NOT mean that any woman who does not do as you do is immodest and lacks humility.

 

[Marfran]

I don’t understand why women shouldn’t wear pants.

Blurring of the sexes? Come on. Does anyone really believe that?

It’s not as if women say “I’m going to wear pants so I can pretend to be a man.”

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

My first reaction was *Pant’s immodest??? *How ridiculous is that!!! I am a woman and have all but given away all of my dresses and skirts. They are uncomfortable, you always have to pay attention when you stand up in case somehow your skirt is pushed up or stuck on something (now that’s immodest), or the wind is blowing too strongly or you have panty lines that show… Pants are 100 times MORE modest than skirts. Pants cover EVERYTHING, there is no skin, no potential Marilyn Monroe accident waiting to happen around the corner… And a man is saying that pants are immodest??? A man that has never worn a skirt??? A woman can look very nice and polished in a pair of pants, or she can let her bare legs hang out in a skirt, or she can even look frumpy in a skirt… And now for my second reaction…was this priest who objected to pants referring to the skin tight ones that the young girls wear–the ones that you have to scrape off with a knife??? Well, those are a different story. And I wouldn’t even call those immodest–just in really bad taste. I have never seen a pair on someone with a perfect flawless, figure…because wearing those tends to accentuate the flaws…

I like Sancto Spiritu’s response. And the priest that complained about women wearing skirts at mass–well, I would like to say walk a mile in my skirt–and in fact** I walk **to church–and I am not about to freeze my legs and have my skirt blow up around me showing off what’s underneath, just to please a priest who wears pants under his robe and likes to see the women at mass wearing skirts. Is it OK with this priest that the skirt wearing women in his parish wear snow pants over their skirts in the winter–and will there be a place for them to remove their snow pants before the mass starts so that the priest can view their legs???

Pants immodest??? Now that is twisted–unless, again, you mean the skin tight ones (those are gross and should be banned–not only from church but from every walk of life)…

 

[Marfran]

Honestly, all clothing covers up what inherently separates the sexes. So why don’t we just go to Mass naked? Then we’ll know for certain who’s a man and who’s a woman.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Ain’t that the truth!!!