Pants! ...and my pride

[Katrina5]

I have been interested in the modesty debate for some time, and I can see both sides of the argument. One of the main flaws I’ve noticed in these types of discussions is a glorification of the past. So often people claim that people of the past, be it the 1950’s or the 150’s, were somehow more dignified and less morally degenerate than folks now. This is wrong. People were sinful then, people are sinful now. The only difference, at least that I can see, is that different societies openly struggle with different sins. Currently, our society openly struggles with sins of sexuality. In other times and societies, the struggle may have been with a different sin. I don’t feel it’s necessary or helpful to look to the past for indications of how to behave in the now. Christians should dress modestly, yes, but should also be culturally appropriate. We do not have to take big strides to be “counter-counter-cultural” through our dress or facades. If we are truly living the life of the Church, we will be plenty noticeable. Christ has the power to redeem all parts of a culture, and human cultures are constantly changing and evolving. Saying that pants are “sin-producing” or inherently immodest in this day and age is illogical, given that our culture has changed, and it is now acceptable for women to wear pants. How does Christ redeem this cultural shift? By allowing women the freedom to choose their clothing based upon their conscience, and to allow them to choose clothing that meets the standards of both modesty and culture.
If you, a woman, feel horribly exposed in pants, then don’t wear them. But please don’t impose the dictates of your conscience upon other people and judge them. Instead, pray for them, and perhaps kindly offer suggestions for outfits that are modest but at least reasonably fashionable.
If you, a woman, find skirts impractical, or feel your freedom as a Christian is imposed upon by the “fashion police”, then wear pants. Please use your God-given discernment to choose your clothing wisely.
When I think of the example of the Theotokos, I do not think she would ever tell a woman that she looks like a whore, or is “damned” to hell for wearing pants, or that she is worthy of eternal beatitude for wearing a frumpy dress. I believe that she would love the woman regardless and speak to her “the truth in love”, and strive to live her own life in the Holy Spirit, modelling charity and patience, with the firm conviction that through her prayers and the redemptive work of Christ, the woman would come to the knowledge of the truth.
As for the men out there, please don’t judge the women around you for their fashion choices. You should also be modelling modesty of character and charity. Certainly don’t ogle, and don’t EVER blame the woman for YOUR sin. Strive to look at them as Christ does: as people filled with the soul-sickness of sin, who desperately need the love of God.
Something that helps me in my day to day life is remembering to always strive to see the image of God in people. When I get irritated or impatient, or I begin to judge someone, I try to see God’s image in their soul, and then I find it helps in the battle against sin.
In the end, modesty is like so many things in the Christian life: using discernment to find a middle ground in order to live a peaceful and Christ-centered life.

 

[Katrina5]

I have been interested in the modesty debate for some time, and I can see both sides of the argument. One of the main flaws I’ve noticed in these types of discussions is a glorification of the past. So often people claim that people of the past, be it the 1950’s or the 150’s, were somehow more dignified and less morally degenerate than folks now. This is wrong. People were sinful then, people are sinful now. The only difference, at least that I can see, is that different societies openly struggle with different sins. Currently, our society openly struggles with sins of sexuality. In other times and societies, the struggle may have been with a different sin. I don’t feel it’s necessary or helpful to look to the past for indications of how to behave in the now. Christians should dress modestly, yes, but should also be culturally appropriate. We do not have to take big strides to be “counter-counter-cultural” through our dress or facades. If we are truly living the life of the Church, we will be plenty noticeable. Christ has the power to redeem all parts of a culture, and human cultures are constantly changing and evolving. Saying that pants are “sin-producing” or inherently immodest in this day and age is illogical, given that our culture has changed, and it is now acceptable for women to wear pants. How does Christ redeem this cultural shift? By allowing women the freedom to choose their clothing based upon their conscience, and to allow them to choose clothing that meets the standards of both modesty and culture.
If you, a woman, feel horribly exposed in pants, then don’t wear them. But please don’t impose the dictates of your conscience upon other people and judge them. Instead, pray for them, and perhaps kindly offer suggestions for outfits that are modest but at least reasonably fashionable.
If you, a woman, find skirts impractical, or feel your freedom as a Christian is imposed upon by the “fashion police”, then wear pants. Please use your God-given discernment to choose your clothing wisely.
When I think of the example of the Theotokos, I do not think she would ever tell a woman that she looks like a whore, or is “damned” to hell for wearing pants, or that she is worthy of eternal beatitude for wearing a frumpy dress. I believe that she would love the woman regardless and speak to her “the truth in love”, and strive to live her own life in the Holy Spirit, modelling charity and patience, with the firm conviction that through her prayers and the redemptive work of Christ, the woman would come to the knowledge of the truth.
As for the men out there, please don’t judge the women around you for their fashion choices. You should also be modelling modesty of character and charity. Certainly don’t ogle, and don’t EVER blame the woman for YOUR sin. Strive to look at them as Christ does: as people filled with the soul-sickness of sin, who desperately need the love of God.
Something that helps me in my day to day life is remembering to always strive to see the image of God in people. When I get irritated or impatient, or I begin to judge someone, I try to see God’s image in their soul, and then I find it helps in the battle against sin.
In the end, modesty is like so many things in the Christian life: using discernment to find a middle ground in order to live a peaceful and Christ-centered life.

Thank you for putting this so well. I found myself getting caught up in the irrational, emotional part of this thread, but you didn’t, and you said what I wish I had said.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

I wear both and can’t say dresses make me feel closer to God. Pants don’t make me feel closer to God, either. Perhaps I should wear a skirt over the pants, just to make sure God can tell I’m close to Him. Oh, wait. He’s God. He already knows that…

I think that was my point exactly. I feel close to God at all times…even in my jammies when I say my bedtime prayers.

 

[Lisa44]

… My point to this guy was that my husband doesn’t want me to wear long flowing skirts–he thinks they look frumpy. …

Hi Marfran
My husband is the same way.

Your posts were quit funny I enjoyed reading them.

 

[Resonet]

Sorry to disagree with your beloved book, but it seems everybody here is forgetting clothes have also largely to do with culture; what the author mentions would fit for a certain period of the Western World but certainly might be considered absurd for many others.
Are you saying a Scot in kilt is less malish for not wearing trousers?? Or should a Vietnamese woman refrain from using trousers for that would affect her feminity??
And please remember men during Jesus times (and quite a few centuries after that) didn’t wear trousers at all but tunics…not too different from those of women!

Ok you may say also the topic here is not gender difference but modesty; if so micro-shirts (feminine as they might be) should largely be considered out

Please! Let’s put things in perspective: In my opinion, as long as a piece of clothing respects the dignity of the human body, it should be considered proper:

PD: I recommend those interested, to read Saint Maria Escriva de Ballaguer’s opinions on dressing And no way anyone might consider him to be a liberal!

 

[Shin]

And his servants going forth into the ways, gathered together all that they found, both bad and good: and the marriage was filled with guests.

And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment.

And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having on a wedding garment? But he was silent.

Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 22:10-14

Clothing is like grace. When we see the saints in Heaven, when the favored fewest see the Blessed Virgin and the saints, she and they are clothed in garments of grace.

Modesty is serious business.

This is conversion. Truth over corrupted sentiments, to change them.

Who is the true spouse? Jesus Christ. And what is His standard? How does He feel about what a person wears?

Now there are some exceptions in emergencies and difficult situations about what to wear. We’ve seen them exampled. But to God… there is no fashion. There are absolute standards regardless of your culture and fashion, and some cultures are decadent, pagan, have corrupt standards – they are not all good simply because they are what is accepted in one culture or another. There is a divine, overarching standard of God. It is our job to find it, know it, and live it.

We all know, hopefully, that these times and these cultures are especially corrupt and immodest.

So… I hope people take what they wear a little more seriously than they do in the past from reading this thread… They like to say, “What is on the outside does not matter, it is the inside…” But when what is on the outside shows what is on the inside… what is in our hearts, and that heart holds a lack of care, obtuseness, disdain for something dear to the Lord. . .

There is inculpable ignorance, and culpable ignorance… and all it takes to become culpable is the spirit of God speaking in the conscience and to have it ignored. And God is often a still, quiet voice… not in the storm. . or the fire. . but in the quiet of the heart whom we do not hear because of our jangling passions and strong views, that clamor and drown out the voice of God. And to our fault. To our fault if the world and its fashions block out the dress and standards of God.

And modesty is beautiful it is not something we should be avoiding. It is something to be embraced because it is a part of humility, and a part of honesty.

The people of God are very different from the people in the world. They look different, act different, speak differently. . They are as far from the people as the world as the earth is from the sky. . . and if we have not yet achieved that. . . They we should know we have at best only just begun.

If a person cannot tell you are a Christian by looking, speaking and talking to you only briefly, and see your modesty. . Where is the light you are supposed to have ready and carry? It is a beautiful light and it should be shining for Christ.

As a Christian you are called to be so especially modest that people can clearly see it.

Nothing is more beautiful than modesty, and it’s particular kind of beauty is a beauty that moves towards humility, chastity, peace, reverence for God, respect, virtue, more in fact than can be said. Modesty is a grace. Modesty is a spiritual clothing as well as a physical clothing.

A modest man is a handsome thing to behold, and a modest woman excels in spiritual beauty. Why? Because as little of each is displayed and as much of Christ as He chooses to be is. Each person lives God’s own life and has the outward appearance and interior disposition God desires. No sins in our dress cover up Christ.

In the sermons below there are some explanations about exactly what modesty is. Part of what modesty is, is observing the due mode for who you are. A modest king dresses differently than a modesty beggar, yet both can observe modesty and sobriety, St. Louis and St. Francis both dressed modestly, according to their places in life and the occasions they went to. A king dresses differently for the everyday than he does for his coronation. Men and women dress differently due to the work, whether they go to mass, or to the supermarket. Religious have a modesty garb or habit for all occasions, that shows their ‘set aside’ state.

There is a due mode for each gender, and that mode has differences in clothing. We can see there are global standards that transcend cultures and history, and that the exceptions only prove these are standards because they are clearly aberrations that when they do defy the overall standard, clearly should not.

Perhaps look at some old photographs… look how people dress even in circumstances we would regard as casual.

 

[Shin]

Modesty is beautiful. And when the Lord Himself warns that one of the signs of the end and horrors is men dressing like women and women dressing like men, we have to ask ourselves – Do we take this seriously, or do we not? Do we repair for this and make a good example against this, or are we no witness or a bad witness to this?

If a woman wears something that gives her a masculine look, if sufficiently so it is a problem. If a man wears something that gives him a feminine look, if sufficiently so, it is a problem.

Yes, I find, ‘Hilllary Clinton’ or any woman wearing pants or a pants suit to be more masculine than she should be, generally. It can be mitigated by very feminine pants, and a long coat that acts like a skirt, but this is mitigation only, the masculine tinge is still normally there.

So it should normally be avoided. We have a very clear warning of the danger of it, and also we have a very clear good impetus towards the virtue of its opposite! We should want to dress in ways that are suitable to our genders because of the virtue of it, and the good interior state it places us in to do so – how we dress effects how we view ourselves. It may be difficult to dress counter-culturally but it is also easy and beneficial because we dress as God desires and more fitting to who we are and our states in life.

Let us be good witnesses and so please God.

Let your modesty be known to all men. The Lord is nigh.

Philippians 4:5.

 

[Brenda_V]

I think that was my point exactly. I feel close to God at all times…even in my jammies when I say my bedtime prayers.

Which you have the good sense of modesty to only wear at home (your jammies that is)

Brenda V.

 

[Marfran]

Shin: I think a lot of people will disagree with you that pants are masculine. What about men that were kilts? Feminine garments, those kilts??? A garment that men should avoid because of their femininiity?

 

[Marfran]

Please! Let’s put things in perspective: In my opinion, as long as a piece of clothing respects the dignity of the human body, it should be considered proper:

Amen.

 

[adstrinity]

Alright, to those of you who feel dresses and skirts are more feminine/modest, could you please show me a Church stipulation/pronouncement on this? Is there a Papal Bull or anything that says women should be in skirts? Not vague interpretations of the Bible, but, something concrete from Church Teaching. Thank you.

 

[Marfran]

Hi Marfran
My husband is the same way.

Your posts were quit funny I enjoyed reading them.

Hi Lisa44!!! It’s true, my neighbor does retrieve the paper in his underwear. And I don’t think he goes to church.

 

[Marfran]

As a woman who is in her 60s I feel very close to God when I go to Mass dressed in pants. If one believes that how they are dressed would determine their closeness to God then they might want to stop and thinkl about why they are at church. Now, if there are women who feel superior to me because they are wearing dresses compared to my pants, I again have to wonder about their charity…or lack thereof.

BTW…I could not in any way be construed as a man and I am also pleased to say I have been given the dignity that a woman who conducts herself respectably deserves.

I love ya!!! You are my sister!!!

I think that some of this discussion is happening because people are coming here from different personal preferences and also different age groups and genders. And also different body types and climates!!

In the tundra here, I am not walking to church with bare legs and risking frostbite. That’s not respect for the body that God gave me. When I retire to Hawaii I may give up the pants and go for the grass skirt look, but until then no one is talking me out of my long underwear. Yes, I wear long underwear to church under my pants. How do you pull that off with a skirt??? Is it OK to wear long underwear under your skirt??? Or should you just suffer through the goosebumps during the service, and offer them up???

When a woman reaches a certain age, and the modesty issue is not very relevant (because 20 year olds won’t be looking our way), are we then allowed to wear pants to church???

Yes, everyone MY PERSPECTIVE is from the tundra.

 

[Resonet]

Sorry Shin but with all due respect, I must strongly disagree with you

In this world of “appearances” when seaming is a lot more important than being, no doubt your argument of “how you look outside reflects what you are inside” may be sustained…

But precisely what makes us christians and Catholics (and therefore, ave raris for most) is that we dont stop in “seams”

How many times the Holy Bible quotes Jesus reproaching Phariseas for “looking” but not being holy?

So more than worrying about what Mrs. Doe or Mss. Jeannie wore on Sunday Mass you should attend how the soul is…

A mere suggestion: Instead of preaching girls to wear skirts and boys trousers why dont we try harder to preach on the real sense of chastity, on the Sacraments, etc?

It’s close time we start BEING Catholics and not work so hard in LOOKING like someone’s idea of them

 

[Katrina5]

And his servants going forth into the ways, gathered together all that they found, both bad and good: and the marriage was filled with guests.

And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment.

And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having on a wedding garment? But he was silent.

Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 22:10-14

So, did the king say, “Hey you in the Tshirt and jeans, go home and put on a tux!” What do you think the guy was really wearing? All we know is it wasn’t a wedding garment, not if it was “modest” or a dress, or pants, or a tunic, or a short skirt and top.
Have you ever seen the officials from the Bahamas who wear a skirt with a suit jacket and tie? They’re men. Go figure.

Clothing is like grace. When we see the saints in Heaven, when the favored fewest see the Blessed Virgin and the saints, she and they are clothed in garments of grace.

Modesty is serious business.

This is conversion. Truth over corrupted sentiments, to change them.

Who is the true spouse? Jesus Christ. And what is His standard? How does He feel about what a person wears?

Now there are some exceptions in emergencies and difficult situations about what to wear. We’ve seen them exampled. But to God… there is no fashion. There are absolute standards regardless of your culture and fashion, and some cultures are decadent, pagan, have corrupt standards – they are not all good simply because they are what is accepted in one culture or another. There is a divine, overarching standard of God. It is our job to find it, know it, and live it.

We all know, hopefully, that these times and these cultures are especially corrupt and immodest.

So… I hope people take what they wear a little more seriously than they do in the past from reading this thread… They like to say, “What is on the outside does not matter, it is the inside…” But when what is on the outside shows what is on the inside… what is in our hearts, and that heart holds a lack of care, obtuseness, disdain for something dear to the Lord. . .

There is inculpable ignorance, and culpable ignorance… and all it takes to become culpable is the spirit of God speaking in the conscience and to have it ignored. And God is often a still, quiet voice… not in the storm. . or the fire. . but in the quiet of the heart whom we do not hear because of our jangling passions and strong views, that clamor and drown out the voice of God. And to our fault. To our fault if the world and its fashions block out the dress and standards of God.

And modesty is beautiful it is not something we should be avoiding. It is something to be embraced because it is a part of humility, and a part of honesty.

The people of God are very different from the people in the world. They look different, act different, speak differently. . They are as far from the people as the world as the earth is from the sky. . . and if we have not yet achieved that. . . They we should know we have at best only just begun.

If a person cannot tell you are a Christian by looking, speaking and talking to you only briefly, and see your modesty. . Where is the light you are supposed to have ready and carry? It is a beautiful light and it should be shining for Christ.

As a Christian you are called to be so especially modest that people can clearly see it.

Nothing is more beautiful than modesty, and it’s particular kind of beauty is a beauty that moves towards humility, chastity, peace, reverence for God, respect, virtue, more in fact than can be said. Modesty is a grace. Modesty is a spiritual clothing as well as a physical clothing.

A modest man is a handsome thing to behold, and a modest woman excels in spiritual beauty. Why? Because as little of each is displayed and as much of Christ as He chooses to be is. Each person lives God’s own life and has the outward appearance and interior disposition God desires. No sins in our dress cover up Christ.

In the sermons below there are some explanations about exactly what modesty is. Part of what modesty is, is observing the due mode for who you are. A modest king dresses differently than a modesty beggar, yet both can observe modesty and sobriety, St. Louis and St. Francis both dressed modestly, according to their places in life and the occasions they went to. A king dresses differently for the everyday than he does for his coronation. Men and women dress differently due to the work, whether they go to mass, or to the supermarket. Religious have a modesty garb or habit for all occasions, that shows their ‘set aside’ state.

There is a due mode for each gender, and that mode has differences in clothing. We can see there are global standards that transcend cultures and history, and that the exceptions only prove these are standards because they are clearly aberrations that when they do defy the overall standard, clearly should not.

Perhaps look at some old photographs… look how people dress even in circumstances we would regard as casual.

 

[Marfran]

Sorry Shin but with all due respect, I must strongly disagree with you

In this world of “appearances” when seaming is a lot more important than being, no doubt your argument of “how you look outside reflects what you are inside” may be sustained…

But precisely what makes us christians and Catholics (and therefore, ave raris for most) is that we dont stop in “seams”

How many times the Holy Bible quotes Jesus reproaching Phariseas for “looking” but not being holy?

So more than worrying about what Mrs. Doe or Mss. Jeannie wore on Sunday Mass you should attend how the soul is…

A mere suggestion: Instead of preaching girls to wear skirts and boys trousers why dont we try harder to preach on the real sense of chastity, on the Sacraments, etc?

It’s close time we start BEING Catholics and not work so hard in LOOKING like someone’s idea of them

Amen.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Sorry Shin but with all due respect, I must strongly disagree with you

In this world of “appearances” when seaming is a lot more important than being, no doubt your argument of “how you look outside reflects what you are inside” may be sustained…

But precisely what makes us christians and Catholics (and therefore, ave raris for most) is that we dont stop in “seams”

How many times the Holy Bible quotes Jesus reproaching Phariseas for “looking” but not being holy?

So more than worrying about what Mrs. Doe or Mss. Jeannie wore on Sunday Mass you should attend how the soul is…

A mere suggestion: Instead of preaching girls to wear skirts and boys trousers why dont we try harder to preach on the real sense of chastity, on the Sacraments, etc?

It’s close time we start BEING Catholics and not work so hard in LOOKING like someone’s idea of them

:clapping:

I wish people spent as much time worrying about how they treat others and how they live the teachings of Christ as what they and others are wearing.

 

[Mater]

Marfan, regarding the long underwear:

I wear long underwear under my skirts and pants from Sept. to May. Yes, it shows. It’s black, slightly baggy, very cozy. I walk to Mass and find skirts with long johns underneath actually warmer than pants - all that trapped air. And interestingly, I find all that swishy air around legs in summer to be cooler. I’m not saying what you should do, but this is what works for me.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Boy do I have no idea what that means, nor do I want to know.

Sorry; but I felt I should explain some of this, if you don’t understand what the priest meant. I’m not going to give my opinion on it, just explain. (He said, “Mini skirts are to fornication what pants are to sodomy.”)
Fornication is less of a sin than sodomy; even though both are done in sin, fornication, at least, is a proper use of the sexual facility.
So in comparing miniskirts to fornication and pants to sodomy, the priest means to say that while miniskirts are sinful, they are less so than pants because they are of the proper form.
Does that make sense?

Pax.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

Please check out this photo of a recent saint. St Gianna Molla, patron saint of the pro-life movement.

mtrojnar.rzeszow.opoka.org.pl/gianna_molla/gianna22.htm