Papal candidates - Short List?

[Brendan_64]

You know setting up a strawman is really an ineffective way to make your point. No one is saying IGNORE the issues regarding the environment. Per your other questions I don’t think you understand or have read the actual material on the USCCB site regarding the specific focus of Catholic Social teaching. I don’t think the Church weighs in on the risk of investments by bankers.

Please do a little research before making such vast claims.

Lisa

Perhaps you could do with reading Caritas in veritate. Here’s just a few quotes from it.

“Corruption and illegality are unfortunately evident in the conduct of the economic and political class in rich countries”

“Among those who sometimes fail to respect the human rights of workers are large multinational companies”

“These processes have led to a downsizing of social security systems as the price to be paid for seeking greater competitive advantage in the global market, with consequent grave danger for the rights of workers”

“Both the regulation of the financial sector, so as to safeguard weaker parties and discourage scandalous speculation, and experimentation with new forms of finance, designed to support development projects, are positive experiences that should be further explored and encouraged.”

Buy go ahead and ignore it if you wish, that’s your choice to make.

 

[Vouthon]

Tagle was mentioned by a priest on CNN two days ago as a possible pope.

Here is the link: cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/02/28/exp-point-edward-beck-1.cnn.html

Interesting to say the least.

 

[LisaA]

Perhaps you could do with reading Caritas in veritate. Here’s just a few quotes from it.

“Corruption and illegality are unfortunately evident in the conduct of the economic and political class in rich countries”

“Among those who sometimes fail to respect the human rights of workers are large multinational companies”

“These processes have led to a downsizing of social security systems as the price to be paid for seeking greater competitive advantage in the global market, with consequent grave danger for the rights of workers”

“Both the regulation of the financial sector, so as to safeguard weaker parties and discourage scandalous speculation, and experimentation with new forms of finance, designed to support development projects, are positive experiences that should be further explored and encouraged.”

Buy go ahead and ignore it if you wish, that’s your choice to make.

I didn’t ignore these comments nor do I disagree obviously. The Church is not an economic advisor weighing in on the risk of investments, only in the consequences of the results. Those on the Left focus on the supposed inherent evil of profit as if engaging in commerce were a bad thing. Some of the comments by the Cardinal while probably hyperbole, sounded much like a condemnation of profit in itself. Profit is neither good nor bad. It can be put to good use or for evil. That’s where the Church has authority.

Further the comment was with respect to the USCCB’s outline on CST. Take a look at the emphasis on the inherent dignity of the human person and life issues are the priority. I don’t see much focus or discussion on investment risk.

Lisa

 

[Brendan_64]

I didn’t ignore these comments nor do I disagree obviously. The Church is not an economic advisor weighing in on the risk of investments, only in the consequences of the results. Those on the Left focus on the supposed inherent evil of profit as if engaging in commerce were a bad thing. Some of the comments by the Cardinal while probably hyperbole, sounded much like a condemnation of profit in itself. Profit is neither good nor bad. It can be put to good use or for evil. That’s where the Church has authority.

Further the comment was with respect to the USCCB’s outline on CST. Take a look at the emphasis on the inherent dignity of the human person and life issues are the priority. I don’t see much focus or discussion on investment risk.

Lisa

It’s not about being on the Right or being on the Left. I couldn’t care less about politics. It’s about the teachings of our Church.

As for focus on investment risk there is quite a bit on our financial markets and banking system in Caritas in veritate.

All I did was point out what Pope Benedict XVI wrote in Caritas in veritate. As for the priority of emphasis on the dignity of the human person, yes indeed, but this is not a separate issue from was Pope Benedict was addressing in Caritas in veritate. Our economic system, lack of respect for human rights of workers (major multinational corporations mentioned here), hardship caused by reckless banking investments, lack of entitlement to form Trade Unions etc. etc. does have a direct impact on the dignity of the human person. It is certainly not a separate issue.

Cardinal Tagle was not criticising profit, but he was very strongly making the point that in today’s global economic system people are being sacrificed for the sake of profit. People’s lives are being blighted, and people are being exploited in order to provide ‘cheap’ goods for consumers, and big profits for the minority at the expense of the lives of the many.

youtube.com/watch?v=c49Zz5jh_zk

I cannot find anything whatsoever at fault in Cardinal Tagle’s speech. He is not out on a limb in what he says, all of what he said is in line with mainstream Catholicism. I’ve heard many sermons from individual priests and bishops recorded sermons that pretty much mirror what the cardinal said at Quebec. His message is in line with the message from Pope Benedict and simply focuses on particular aspects of Catholic teaching.

Profit is neither good nor bad. It can be put to good use or for evil. That’s where the Church has authority.

It’s not just how profit is used that, it is also how profit is made. If profit is made through the exploitation of other people (paying people poor wages, denying them their human rights, having them work in unsafe conditions and excessively long hours, denying them the right to form Trade Unions etc.) in order to maximise profit and provide ‘cheap’ goods, is also the business of the Church.

We can pretend that these aspects of Church teaching are not really that important and try to kid ourselves that they are somehow ‘fringe’ views unrepresentative of the mainstream, but to do that would be to be voluntarily blind to what our Church teaches on issues that we find personally challenging or uncomfortable.

 

[LisaA]

It’s not about being on the Right or being on the Left. I couldn’t care less about politics. It’s about the teachings of our Church.

As for focus on investment risk there is quite a bit on our financial markets and banking system in Caritas in veritate.

All I did was point out what Pope Benedict XVI wrote in Caritas in veritate. As for the priority of emphasis on the dignity of the human person, yes indeed, but this is not a separate issue from was Pope Benedict was addressing in Caritas in veritate. Our economic system, lack of respect for human rights of workers (major multinational corporations mentioned here), hardship caused by reckless banking investments, lack of entitlement to form Trade Unions etc. etc. does have a direct impact on the dignity of the human person. It is certainly not a separate issue.

Cardinal Tagle was not criticising profit, but he was very strongly making the point that in today’s global economic system people are being sacrificed for the sake of profit. People’s lives are being blighted, and people are being exploited in order to provide ‘cheap’ goods for consumers, and big profits for the minority at the expense of the lives of the many.

youtube.com/watch?v=c49Zz5jh_zk

I cannot find anything whatsoever at fault in Cardinal Tagle’s speech. He is not out on a limb in what he says, all of what he said is in line with mainstream Catholicism. I’ve heard many sermons from individual priests and bishops recorded sermons that pretty much mirror what the cardinal said at Quebec. His message is in line with the message from Pope Benedict and simply focuses on particular aspects of Catholic teaching.

It’s not just how profit is used that, it is also how profit is made. If profit is made through the exploitation of other people (paying people poor wages, denying them their human rights, having them work in unsafe conditions and excessively long hours, denying them the right to form Trade Unions etc.) in order to maximise profit and provide ‘cheap’ goods, is also the business of the Church.

We can pretend that these aspects of Church teaching are not really that important and try to kid ourselves that they are somehow ‘fringe’ views unrepresentative of the mainstream, but to do that would be to be voluntarily blind to what our Church teaches on issues that we find personally challenging or uncomfortable.

Again you read more into the statement that was there. However with respect to our economic system, be aware that free markets and capitalism have brought more people out of poverty than any alternative. World poverty has in fact decreased in the last couple of decades as formerly communist countries have adopted more free market concepts. Of course it’s not optimal but I would rather see poverty decrease than increase or remain static, wouldn’t you?

Further the demonization of business when GOVERNMENTS are far more guilty of restricting human freedom and dignity than any business neglecting a major factor in human misery. African poverty for example, in a continent teeming with incredible natural resources, industrious and hardworking people, is more reflective of the corrupt and tyrannical governments than corporations exploiting employees. Again look at the “side by side” comparisons. In countries where the free market prevails, the populace is far better off than where the government is in control of the economy…again North vs South Korea. The latter has a vibrant free market based economy. The former is under the control of the government and the people starve. When you speak of “our” economic system exploiting workers, creating unsafe working conditions or restricting worker rights, I wonder what country you are talking about and why you focus on business as the instrument of evil when it is far more likely to be a government.

As to profits, I also think that “profit” made in the furtherence of evil is also to be questioned by the Church. Planned Parenthood for example makes profits by killing babies and promoting non-marital sexual activity. But don’t forget the government’s role in supporting this evil organization. It is not a free market business but is heavily subsidized by government. Our tax dollars at work!

Similarly government interference in risk is also potentially destructive…the Community Reinvestment Act for example. By taking risk OUT of the market with government subsidies, the market was no longer rational. Mortgages with little or no chance of being repaid were sold, backed by you and me. Do you truly think had the banks and investors been on the hook for those mortgages they would have made the loans? Again, there are no angels in this play but I dislike the focus on “evil” of business when the devil is at work in more than a few governments including our own.

I think Cardinal Tagle’s speech and his delivery was based on his perspective with respect to the Third World and thus the focus on elements of evil that just are not part of the majority of the American experience nor reflective of America’s (partially) free enterprise economic system.

Lisa

 

[Brendan_64]

Similarly government interference in risk is also potentially destructive…the Community Reinvestment Act for example. By taking risk OUT of the market with government subsidies, the market was no longer rational. Mortgages with little or no chance of being repaid were sold, backed by you and me. Do you truly think had the banks and investors been on the hook for those mortgages they would have made the loans? Again, there are no angels in this play but I dislike the focus on “evil” of business when the devil is at work in more than a few governments including our own.

I think Cardinal Tagle’s speech and his delivery was based on his perspective with respect to the Third World and thus the focus on elements of evil that just are not part of the majority of the American experience nor reflective of America’s (partially) free enterprise economic system.

Lisa

With regard to mortgages, I think the issues caused there were quite uniquely an American issue and wasn’t the cause of the major international recession we are currently facing. Reckless investment by bankers, a culture of reckless risk-taking with the reward of huge personal bonuses, fraudulent manipulation of the LIBOR, short-selling, etc. has resulted in the near collapse of financial system, certainly across Europe, resulting in the wiping out of people’s hard-earned savings and pension funds. We even had a UK bank turning a blind eye (allegedly) to large scale Mexican drug money-laundering.

With regard to Cardinal Tagle’s perspective, why shouldn’t he focus on the 3rd World? That is after all where most Catholics are from. The USA represents only a small part of the constituency of the Universal Church. If the benefits we in the West see from global capitalism come, at least in part, as a result of the exploitation of our neighbours in third world countries, then surely that is wrong and something the Church should speak out against? How many of us in the West wear branded goods that come as a result of exploitative sweatshop labour in the Third World? Does that not also make us, as individuals, complicit in the exploitation of our neighbour for our own personal convenience.

 

[LisaA]

With regard to mortgages, I think the issues caused there were quite uniquely an American issue and wasn’t the cause of the major international recession we are currently facing. Reckless investment by bankers, a culture of reckless risk-taking with the reward of huge personal bonuses, fraudulent manipulation of the LIBOR, short-selling, etc. has resulted in the near collapse of financial system, certainly across Europe, resulting in the wiping out of people’s hard-earned savings and pension funds. We even had a UK bank turning a blind eye (allegedly) to large scale Mexican drug money-laundering.

As I said, no angels in this play. However could you also consider a major reason for the international recession as being the bloated nanny state governments? At least with respect to Europe, the countries with high levels of government employees, benefits, and a disincentive to be a productive citizen, cheap borrowed money from countries like China have finally caught up with them. If you look at which economies are thriving in the world you will find a lot less government interference and involvement in daily life. Would you please consider that business is NOT always the reason for human misery? There are not enough Wall Street fat cats to blame for the world wide ecnonomic slowdown. Government makes nothing, it only takes what others produce and then redistributes it as its leaders see fit. Economic growth, not more benefits and higher taxes is the way out for Europe and the US.

With regard to Cardinal Tagle’s perspective, why shouldn’t he focus on the 3rd World? That is after all where most Catholics are from. The USA represents only a small part of the constituency of the Universal Church. If the benefits we in the West see from global capitalism come, at least in part, as a result of the exploitation of our neighbours in third world countries, then surely that is wrong and something the Church should speak out against? How many of us in the West wear branded goods that come as a result of exploitative sweatshop labour in the Third World? Does that not also make us, as individuals, complicit in the exploitation of our neighbour for our own personal convenience.

As I said, Cardinal Tagle’s perspective is understandable given his heritage. What I disagree with is the focus on business as the evil doer and cause of human misery. I did not hear anything in his speech (although he may have addressed it in other speeches) regarding corrupt governments in Africa, Islamism, communism and tyranny by governments and government officials. JPII was a complete foe of communism and the power elite exploiting the people. He saw this in the Soviet dominated countries such as his own Poland. The demise of the USSR and its tentacles reaching throughout the world is a major reason for improved standards of living and greater freedom in the world. It was not the dismantling or restricting of corporations that freed Poland.

As to exploitive sweatshop labor, of course speak out. We as individuals can try to avoid products from these countries. But frankly good luck with that. I belong to a buying club and try to check the source of products before purchasing. If I can avoid certain countries I do but it’s quite difficult. Further thoughts of protectionism or restricting trade will only serve to increase prices for those who can least afford it. It’s not the Tiffany’s shopper who willl be hurt if we restrict goods from China, it’s the mom who’s at Walmart trying to get food and clothes for her kids.

Again I didn’t find Cardinal Tagle’s delivery or the “enemies list” very appealing. It was more hyperbole than charity. I realize this is but one glimpse of him as a potential Holy Father and if he is elected then he is the man the Holy Spirit advanced for this time.

Lisa

 

[petronus]

Cardinal Tagle on social justice.

vimeo.com/52444566

Well said , Cardinal Tagle . You speak the truth .

 

[_Abyssinia]

Cardinal Sandri: “Women must have a more important role in the life of the Church”

reuters.com/article/2013/03/03/us-pope-succession-sandri-idUSBRE92208N20130303

 

[_Abyssinia]

George Weigel on MSNBC discussing possibilities for Pope

video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc/51020353/#51020353

 

[unafraid]

The more I think about it , the more I believe that the last thing the Church needs in a pontif at this time is some worldly politico who mirrors a corporate global manager. Surely , public relations savvy appears to be the quality du jour in this age of excessive media storm and stress , however , taking that bait could mean playing right into the hands of the Church’s enemies.

I am praying for a man who is more inclined to advise that we “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s , and give to God what is God’s .” In other words someone who is more inclined to edify the world on matters of the soul , rather than operating as a geopolitical consultant. I want someone who knows that his métier is spirituality , and performs on the global stage accordingly.

 

[Brendan_64]

It’s not the Tiffany’s shopper who willl be hurt if we restrict goods from China, it’s the mom who’s at Walmart trying to get food and clothes for her kids.

But they won’t be hurting anywhere near as much as the poor individuals who are being exploited in order to provide cheap goods.

You’re in effect arguing that we need sweatshops and human exploitation so that lower income families in the West can have cheap goods. So that’s the justification for human exploitation and misery then? That’s the price of it?

As Christians we need to look beyond our own borders and stop judging the rightness or wrongness of something by the beneficial or negative effects it has on the people of our own country. The poor worker being exploited in some far-eastern sweatshop is just as much our neighbour as people in our own country. We should care for him just as much. We are called to love him as ourselves. Would we accept a member of our own family working in a sweatshop in order to provide the people of our country with cheap goods? If the answer is, “No,” then we cannot accept that other human beings should be allowed to do so.

What I took out of Cardinal Tagle’s speech was that human misery of others is never acceptable in order to provide profit, cheap goods, or for the benefit of one’s own national security. I cannot find a single thing in what the cardinal said that I did not whole-heartedly agree with. And despite, his more exhuberant style, his message is pretty much in line with that of Pope Benedict XVI on such matters.

vimeo.com/52444566

 

[BroomWagon]

But they won’t be hurting anywhere near as much as the poor individuals who are being exploited in order to provide cheap goods.

You’re in effect arguing that we need sweatshops and human exploitation so that lower income families in the West can have cheap goods. So that’s the justification for human exploitation and misery then? That’s the price of it?

As Christians we need to look beyond our own borders and stop judging the rightness or wrongness of something by the beneficial or negative effects it has on the people of our own country. The poor worker being exploited in some far-eastern sweatshop is just as much our neighbour as people in our own country. We should care for him just as much. We are called to love him as ourselves. Would we accept a member of our own family working in a sweatshop in order to provide the people of our country with cheap goods? If the answer is, “No,” then we cannot accept that other human beings should be allowed to do so.

What I took out of Cardinal Tagle’s speech was that human misery of others is never acceptable in order to provide profit, cheap goods, or for the benefit of one’s own national security. I cannot find a single thing in what the cardinal said that I did not whole-heartedly agree with. And despite, his more exhuberant style, his message is pretty much in line with that of Pope Benedict XVI on such matters.

vimeo.com/52444566

washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/02/22/chinese-state-media-releases-a-map-showing-the-spread-of-cancer-villages/
Also, this with China.

An outlet with Chinese state media has taken the unusual step of indirectly acknowledging the link between cancer and pollution in China. In the process, it’s also shown just how wide this problem is becoming.

As David Wertime writes over at Tea Leaf Nation, the Weibo account of Global Times, a Communist Party-owned newspaper, recently shared a map of so-called “cancer villages,” the colloquial term for towns where cancer rates have spiked in recent years.

“Global Times‘ recent sharing of this powerful image, accompanied by a weeping emoticon, perhaps signals that higher authorities have decided … to open reportage of the existence of so-called ‘cancer villages,’ ” Wertime writes.

I don’t know if I shop for much merchandise from Walmart, food can be inexpensive but a lot of that is American.

I guess a lot of the merchandise may be made in China, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India.

 

[LisaA]

But they won’t be hurting anywhere near as much as the poor individuals who are being exploited in order to provide cheap goods.

You’re in effect arguing that we need sweatshops and human exploitation so that lower income families in the West can have cheap goods. So that’s the justification for human exploitation and misery then? That’s the price of it?]

It’s very tiresome the way you twist the words around, ignoring the salient point in some attempt to make me the bad guy. I did NOT argue that we need sweatshops for cheap goods. I said if we restrict or put tariffs on trade with countries that produce most of our clothes, electronics, and other household products, it is not going to make the sweatshops disappear and it will negatively impact lower income people in the countries where these goods are sold. Tarriffs and trade embargos do not result in better wages for people in these countries. Should we pressure these governments in every way possible? Yes. We can make decisions regarding our own purchases and our government can apply pressure as well. Should the Church speak out against such human exploitation? Yes. But my point was with respect to responding with trade restrictions and additional charges which do nothing for the people being exploited.

Why don’t you respond to my many points about how much GOVERNMENT is the problem rather than “evil corporations” the easy whipping boy for the Left? They don’t want the focus on the governments’ complicity in human misery because it would not comport with their desire for government control over our lives.

As Christians we need to look beyond our own borders and stop judging the rightness or wrongness of something by the beneficial or negative effects it has on the people of our own country. The poor worker being exploited in some far-eastern sweatshop is just as much our neighbour as people in our own country. We should care for him just as much. We are called to love him as ourselves. Would we accept a member of our own family working in a sweatshop in order to provide the people of our country with cheap goods? If the answer is, “No,” then we cannot accept that other human beings should be allowed to do so.

vimeo.com/52444566

Maybe we should, maybe this is the ideal but the reality is that we don’t. So Brendan, you of the the youthful idealism, pray tell what we do to prevent presumed exploitation of human beings in far off countries? Look around your house, apartment, look at the clothes on your back and the shoes on your feet. Look at your car, where are the tires made? Look at the labels on food. You have a computer obviously and probably a cell phone. Were they all made in the USA by well paid union employees? I didn’t think so. It’s all very nice to say such lofty things but a lot harder to live them.

Lisa

 

[BroomWagon]

I wouldn’t all the Pope a figurehead but I think the changes he can effect are probably limited. That seems to be the conscensus of many. At least on Theological types of issues. That’s why I said at one point in this thread that an Administrator might be helpful.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The more I think about it , the more I believe that the last thing the Church needs in a pontif at this time is some worldly politico who mirrors a corporate global manager. Surely , public relations savvy appears to be the quality du jour in this age of excessive media storm and stress , however , taking that bait could mean playing right into the hands of the Church’s enemies.

I am praying for a man who is more inclined to advise that we “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s , and give to God what is God’s .” In other words someone who is more inclined to edify the world on matters of the soul , rather than operating as a geopolitical consultant. I want someone who knows that his métier is spirituality , and performs on the global stage accordingly.

…particularly since the Church itself needs huge spiritual repair and clarification, requiring enormous attention on that alone.

 

[Brendan_64]

So Brendan, you of the the youthful idealism, pray tell what we do to prevent presumed exploitation of human beings in far off countries? Look around your house, apartment, look at the clothes on your back and the shoes on your feet. Look at your car, where are the tires made? Look at the labels on food. You have a computer obviously and probably a cell phone. Were they all made in the USA by well paid union employees? I didn’t think so. It’s all very nice to say such lofty things but a lot harder to live them.

Just because something is hard to live by is no reason to throw in the towel and say, “That’s just the way it is, we may as well benefit from the cheap goods, after all we can’t change things”. Wherever possible we should not buy goods from countries known to exploit others in sweatshops. There are alternatives for many things (more expensive granted) and you very easily buy food that is local (UK based for me) or at least European. To have a Pope to spell out the message that human exploitation isn’t acceptable and that we all have a duty to do what we can on this would make an impact and relieve at least some of the human misery involved.

Youthful idealism? I wish. The number after my name is the year I was born in.

Should we really not bother trying to live up to something that is difficult to live up to, and say “Oh well it’s going to happen anyway, I might as well benefit from it”. Many things about our Christian living are hard to live up to, does that mean we should just give up?

 

[LisaA]

Just because something is hard to live by is no reason to throw in the towel and say, “That’s just the way it is, we may as well benefit from the cheap goods, after all we can’t change things”. Wherever possible we should not buy goods from countries known to exploit others in sweatshops. There are alternatives for many things (more expensive granted) and you very easily buy food that is local (UK based for me) or at least European. To have a Pope to spell out the message that human exploitation isn’t acceptable and that we all have a duty to do what we can on this would make an impact and relieve at least some of the human misery involved.

Youthful idealism? I wish. The number after my name is the year I was born in.

Should we really not bother trying to live up to something that is difficult to live up to, and say “Oh well it’s going to happen anyway, I might as well benefit from it”. Many things about our Christian living are hard to live up to, does that mean we should just give up?

I didn’t say anything of the kind but enjoy your life in dreamland. Oh and please think about where your clothing, car, electronics, and many other household goods came from before casting stones regarding others’ behavior.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

…particularly since the Church itself needs huge spiritual repair and clarification, requiring enormous attention on that alone.

Yes that is where the Church is in great need. I just saw that Cardinal O’Brian admitted sexual indiscretions. I keep thinking there is an end to this nightmare.

This morning I heard Joan Lewis during her regular Vatican Insider show. Apparently Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI spent Friday afternoons reading about the issues of scandal within the Church. He said it was an earthly purgatory to learn about the “filth” as he described it. The next Pope will have many issues to address, both internally and in the world.

Lisa

 

[BroomWagon]

Though the share of Catholics may not be as great as South America, when you look at the world, North Korea and China, perhaps it would be good for that part of the world meaning Asia as the election of Pope John Paul II was very good for Eastern Europe.

You can’t believe how huge Shang Hai is among cities of the world.

I guess I’m saying we are at a pivotal time of history and a lot of power seems to be over there right now.

tejiendoelmundo.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/shanghai-skyline.jpg

The skyline is probably slightly bigger than New York City in it’s hey day.

But that said, the Church will need to consider all of these parts of the world. The choice for the next Pope seems very difficult. Difficult to please everyone.

I like Cardinal Turkson but there was one article that said the Cardinal saying something like “I could do the work of the Pope” or however that was said may not have been the best thing to say.