Papal candidates - Short List?

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I guess Pope Leo XIII isn’t one of your favorites, then! I believe the word “destructive” was used in one encyclical.
That depends on how one classifies Socialism.

CCC 2425 - The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or "socialism.

So the Church has issue here with totalitarianism and atheism, both very apparent in Communism as seen in the former Soviet Union etc. The Church rejects the ideas of atheism and totalitarianism which have become associated with forms of Socialism. Socialism per se is not at odds with the Church, but rather totalitarianism and atheism.

In the same CCC 2425 it also says “She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.”

And it then goes on to say, “Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice.”

So in essence the Church rejects the ideas associated with some of the more extreme forms of both Socialism and Capitalism.

Those claiming that the Church is aligned with either the right or left in terms of economics are both quite wrong.
 
So on the 13th of March that would be 12pm Pacific time?
Let me clarify, the smoke will appear tomorrow at 4:00am PT, 6:00am CT or 7:00am ET

From March 13, two ballots will be done every day, so the smoke will appear at 4:00am PT, 6:00am CT, or 7:00am ET and 11:00am PT, 1:00pm CT or 2:00pm ET
 
Let me clarify, the smoke will appear tomorrow at 4:00am PT, 6:00am CT or 7:00am ET

From March 13, two ballots will be done every day, so the smoke will appear at 4:00am PT, 6:00am CT, or 7:00am ET and 11:00am PT, 1:00pm CT or 2:00pm ET
Okay, Thanks so much Abyssinia!! I’ll drag myself out of bed at 4:am. Can’t wait to see who our new pope will be!
 
The Church does not have an issue with Socialists. Communists yes (because they deny God) but Socialists no. A great many Socialists are Christians. The Christian Socialist movement played a pivotal part in setting up the Welfare State in the UK in the 40’s and 50’s and have played an important part in the Labour movement since then.

As a matter of fact, in the UK anyway, the Church seems to be far more vocal in condemning actions of the Conservative led government and their attacks on public service and especially their reduction in social security payments to those less well off.

The Catholic Church (and the Anglican Church) in the UK anyway is certainly not a Church that supports the economic and social policies of the Right.
The kind of socialism I am talking about is anti-religious. The kind that Pope Leo was concerned about. It may be marxist or it might be fascist (national socialism).
The secularism of the Obama administration leaves little place for religious institutions. Obama seems to believe that we as individuals are united only by political institutions. He might have worked with the Church to work out a national health care scheme but he chosen instead to use legal force to bring the Church into line. He is now openly opposed to the traditional family. He has made political alliance with the Big Bankers and public employee unions. In short, a corporate state. The best parallel I can think of is Mussolini’s regime during the ‘20s. He finally made a truce with the Church but then by going against Catholic Action, made the Church pay the price of neutrality.
 
The kind of socialism I am talking about is anti-religious. The kind that Pope Leo was concerned about. It may be marxist or it might be fascist (national socialism).
The secularism of the Obama administration leaves little place for religious institutions. Obama seems to believe that we as individuals are united only by political institutions. He might have worked with the Church to work out a national health care scheme but he chosen instead to use legal force to bring the Church into line. He is now openly opposed to the traditional family. He has made political alliance with the Big Bankers and public employee unions. In short, a corporate state. The best parallel I can think of is Mussolini’s regime during the ‘20s. He finally made a truce with the Church but then by going against Catholic Action, made the Church pay the price of neutrality.
My sentiments exactly. When people said Obama was a Socialist, I always thought he was closer to Mussolini than Marx. He clearly believes in the European model of crony capitalism…loans and grants to his favored industries…no questions asked when his buddy CEOs’ companies pay no income tax. Obama is CLEARLY at war with the Church to the point that Timothy Cardinal Dolan basically said Obama lied to him about the HHS Mandate and the the religious accommodation.

BTW your comment that Obama feels we are allied only by poliical institutions…remember that HORRIBLE and frightening commercial at the DNC that “the only thing we all belong to is the government…” Now that is a truly scary scenario. No room for God or our fellow man is there?

Whomever is chosen Pope (triangulating back to the thread) I pray he is a stalwart advocate of religious liberty and speaks out against the advancing secularism taking over in America and already entrenched in Europe.

Lisa
 
That depends on how one classifies Socialism.

CCC 2425 - The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or "socialism.

So the Church has issue here with totalitarianism and atheism, both very apparent in Communism as seen in the former Soviet Union etc. The Church rejects the ideas of atheism and totalitarianism which have become associated with forms of Socialism. Socialism per se is not at odds with the Church, but rather totalitarianism and atheism.

In the same CCC 2425 it also says “She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.”

And it then goes on to say, “Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice.”

So in essence the Church rejects the ideas associated with some of the more extreme forms of both Socialism and Capitalism.

Those claiming that the Church is aligned with either the right or left in terms of economics are both quite wrong.
The most extreme form of capitalism does not exist. No government has ever fully embraced laissez faire capitalism. That’s because capitalism is an economic process rather than an ideology. Socialism, on the other hand, has many exemplars–all bad.
 
My sentiments exactly. When people said Obama was a Socialist, I always thought he was closer to Mussolini than Marx. He clearly believes in the European model of crony capitalism…loans and grants to his favored industries…no questions asked when his buddy CEOs’ companies pay no income tax. Obama is CLEARLY at war with the Church to the point that Timothy Cardinal Dolan basically said Obama lied to him about the HHS Mandate and the the religious accommodation.

BTW your comment that Obama feels we are allied only by poliical institutions…remember that HORRIBLE and frightening commercial at the DNC that “the only thing we all belong to is the government…” Now that is a truly scary scenario. No room for God or our fellow man is there?

Whomever is chosen Pope (triangulating back to the thread) I pray he is a stalwart advocate of religious liberty and speaks out against the advancing secularism taking over in America and already entrenched in Europe.

Lisa
Tagle is too young to be considered, and economically liberal, but he is very aware of the grip that secularism has on the developed countries. His great asset is his preaching ability. He certainly is a better preacher in English than any of our Cardinals.
 
Let me clarify, the smoke will appear tomorrow at 4:00am PT, 6:00am CT or 7:00am ET

From March 13, two ballots will be done every day, so the smoke will appear at 4:00am PT, 6:00am CT, or 7:00am ET and 11:00am PT, 1:00pm CT or 2:00pm ET
That is the timeline for every day besides tomorrow. There is only one evening vote tomorrow.

Things get further complicated, though, if you consider the possibility of a pope getting elected on the first of the two morning or evening ballots. That would speed up the timetable.
 
That depends on how one classifies Socialism.
In 1965, Murray Rothbard wrote the classic article “Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty” (lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard16.html) which deals with the proper definition of Socialism. Here, in part, is what he said:

…In England, the classical liberals began their shift from radicalism to quasi-conservatism in the early nineteenth century; a touchstone of this shift was the general British liberal attitude toward the national liberation struggle in Ireland. This struggle was twofold: against British political imperialism, and against feudal landlordism which had been imposed by that imperialism. By their Tory blindness toward the Irish drive for national independence, and especially for peasant property against feudal oppression, the British liberals (including Spencer) symbolized their effective abandonment of genuine Liberalism, which had been virtually born in a struggle against the feudal land system. Only in the United States, the great home of radical liberalism (where feudalism had never been able to take root outside the South), did natural rights and higher law theory, and consequent radical liberal movements, continue in prominence until the mid-nineteenth century. In their different ways, the Jacksonian and Abolitionist movements were the last powerful radical libertarian movements in American life. [3]

Thus, with Liberalism abandoned from within, there was no longer a party of Hope in the Western world, no longer a “Left” movement to lead a struggle against the State and against the unbreached remainder of the Old Order. Into this gap, into this void created by the drying up of radical liberalism, there stepped a new movement: Socialism. Libertarians of the present day are accustomed to think of socialism as the polar opposite of the libertarian creed. But this is a grave mistake, responsible for a severe ideological disorientation of libertarians in the present world. As we have seen, Conservatism was the polar opposite of liberty; and socialism, while to the “left” of conservatism, was essentially a confused, middle-of-the road movement. It was, and still is, middle-of-the road because it tries to achieve Liberal ends by the use of Conservative means.

In short, Russell Kirk, who claims that Socialism was the heir of classical liberalism, and Ronald Hamowy, who sees Socialism as the heir of Conservatism, are both right; for the question is on what aspect of this confused centrist movement we happen to be focussing. Socialism, like Liberalism and against Conservatism, accepted the industrial system and the liberal goals of freedom, reason, mobility, progress, higher living standards the masses, and an end to theocracy and war; but it tried to achieve these ends by the use of incompatible, Conservative means: statism, central planning, communitarianism, etc. Or rather, to be more precise, there were from the beginning two different strands within Socialism: one was the Right-wing, authoritarian strand, from Saint-Simon down, which glorified statism, hierarchy, and collectivism and which was thus a projection of Conservatism trying to accept and dominate the new industrial civilization. The other was the Left-wing, relatively libertarian strand, exemplified in their different ways by Marx and Bakunin, revolutionary and far more interested in achieving the libertarian goals of liberalism and socialism: but especially the smashing of the State apparatus to achieve the “withering away of the State” and the “end of the exploitation of man by man.” Interestingly enough, the very Marxian phrase, the “replacement of the government of men by the administration of things,” can be traced, by a circuitous route, from the great French radical laissez-faire liberals of the early nineteenth century, Charles Comte (no relation to Auguste Comte) and Charles Dunoyer. And so, too, may the concept of the “class struggle”; except that for Dunoyer and Comte the inherently antithetical classes were not businessmen vs. workers, but the producers in society (including free businessmen, workers, peasants, etc.) versus the exploiting classes constituting, and privileged by, the State apparatus. [4] Saint-Simon, at one time in his confused and chaotic life, was close to Comte and Dunoyer and picked up his class analysis from them, in the process characteristically getting the whole thing balled up and converting businessmen on the market, as well as feudal landlords and others of the State privileged, into “exploiters.” Marx and Bakunin picked this up from the Saint-Simonians, and the result gravely misled the whole Left Socialist movement; for, then, in addition to smashing the repressive State, it became supposedly necessary to smash private capitalist ownership of the means of production. Rejecting private property, especially of capital, the Left Socialists were then trapped in a crucial inner contradiction: if the State is to disappear after the Revolution (immediately for Bakunin, gradually “withering” for Marx), then how is the “collective” to run its property without becoming an enormous State itself in fact even if not in name? This was a contradiction which neither the Marxists nor the Bakuninists were ever able to resolve.

Having replaced radical liberalism as the party of the “Left,” Socialism, by the turn of the twentieth century, fell prey to this inner contradiction. Most Socialists (Fabians, Lassalleans, even Marxists) turned sharply rightward, completely abandoned the old libertarian goals and ideals of revolution and the withering away of the State, and became cozy Conservatives permanently reconciled to the State, the status quo, and the whole apparatus of neo-mercantilism, State monopoly capitalism, imperialism and war that was rapidly being established and riveted on European society at the turn of the twentieth century…
 
I am bumping this again now that Allen has published his final piece in the series.

John Allen has been doing a series on the “Papabile of the Day.” I have found it enjoyable just to learn a bit more about some of our cardinals. It makes me feel better knowing there are such good prelates out there. 🙂

Anyway, here is who he has profiled so far. Keep in mind that this is the National Catholic Reporter, so try to avoid looking at the comments section if you have forgotten your blood pressure medication. 😛

  1. Here are some of John Allen’s interviews with various (mostly American) cardinals leading up towards the conclave:

  1. Here is my frontrunner:

    View attachment 16564

    View attachment 16565

    Dom Louis-Marie, Abbot of Sainte Madeleine du Barroux: youtube.com/watch?v=WXHKvvSfxqkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXHKvvSfxqk
 
One thing is guaranteed:

Given the list of “impossible” combined features/traits, not a single Cardinal in the mix qualifies.

The supposed “must-haves” include:

Lots of pastoral experience
Lots of language fluency
The right age
Charisma
Zeal
Competent administrator
Extrovert
Ability to handle Curia (probably Italian)
(Conversely, a non-Italian because of concern about being a Curia 'insider")
Not personally tainted by scandals, such as handling of sex abuse

and of course, holiness, including humility, prayerfulness, yadayada

Profile the papabile. None of them have all of those together. None. If they have most, then they’re not the right age. And I’m sure I’ve left out a couple of supposedly essential elements of ‘perfection.’

The Cardinals will have to choose based on perceived priority needs. At least that will be the rational part of the decision.
 
The most extreme form of capitalism does not exist. No government has ever fully embraced laissez faire capitalism. That’s because capitalism is an economic process rather than an ideology. Socialism, on the other hand, has many exemplars–all bad.
That is a matter of opinion, your opinion. The fact is that the Church is not opposed to Socialism per se, but rather the atheism and totalitarianism that is associated with certain forms of “socialism”. Whether or not you think that Socialism has many bad exemplars (or even if it has) is not the issue. Democratic Socialism, as seen in the Labour movement in the UK, Europe, and elsewhere (even in the USA) is NOT condemned by the Church. So long as Socialism is not atheistic or totalitarian in nature, the Church has no issue with it.

CCC 2425 also states “A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable”. I don’t know, but I have met some very ‘successful’ capitalists who do in fact appear to regard profit as the exclusive and ultimate end of economic activity. I think that it was this issue that Cardinal Tagle was addressing during his sermon in Quebec.

It is a bit tiresome when people try to imply that somehow the Church is naturally aligned with the Right. The fact is that the Church is aligned with neither the Right or the Left.
 
I am convinced Cardinal Dolan will not be the next Pope because he does not speak several languages, which is a necessity for a Pope
 
An Italian reporter today on CNN said Dolan and O’Malley seem to have support of reformers and Scola of the non reformers. Not sure what he meant by reform. A spokeman for the organization, Catholics United, said however an American pope would not necessarily be the best choice for reform. He said an American would be too influenced by the American value of Wall St and that the Church needs to spend more time on matters such as the poor and climate change. Less time on contraception and SS marriage. No doubt this forum disagrees.
 
An Italian reporter today on CNN said Dolan and O’Malley seem to have support of reformers and Scola of the non reformers. Not sure what he meant by reform.
That would probably be in terms of doctrinal and liturgical reform.

Cardinal Scola is very conservative on doctrine, but progressive on social policy. Which would, in my opinion, make a very good balance for a Pope wanting to stand firm to our core doctrine and liturgy, but at the same time actively promote Catholic teaching on social issues (poverty etc.). Cardinal Scola is also very open to constructive dialogue with Islam, which in today’s climate can only be a good thing.
 
That is a matter of opinion, your opinion. The fact is that the Church is not opposed to Socialism per se, but rather the atheism and totalitarianism that is associated with certain forms of “socialism”. Whether or not you think that Socialism has many bad exemplars (or even if it has) is not the issue. Democratic Socialism, as seen in the Labour movement in the UK, Europe, and elsewhere (even in the USA) is NOT condemned by the Church. So long as Socialism is not atheistic or totalitarian in nature, the Church has no issue with it.

CCC 2425 also states “A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable”. I don’t know, but I have met some very ‘successful’ capitalists who do in fact appear to regard profit as the exclusive and ultimate end of economic activity. I think that it was this issue that Cardinal Tagle was addressing during his sermon in Quebec.

It is a bit tiresome when people try to imply that somehow the Church is naturally aligned with the Right. The fact is that the Church is aligned with neither the Right or the Left.
Thank you for this. It has become more than a bit tiresome to me.
 
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