You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Papal Envoy Talks Challenge of Medjugorje, Praises Pilgrims’ Expressions of Faith
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
C
coco2
Guest
This is a complex case.
U
unafraid
Guest
It is more than complex: it is mystifying. I cannot rationalize so much good deriving itself from what must now be viewed as evil origins.This is a complex case.
Z
zab
Guest
“People perceive there things that they don’t have at home,” Archbishop Hoser said of Medjugorje. “In many old Christian countries, individual confessions do not exist anymore. In many countries, there is no Adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. In many countries, there is no Way of the Cross anymore. There’s no rosary anymore. In Britain, in France, they told me the last time they prayed the Way of the Cross was 30 years ago. And such dryness of sacred space obviously leads towards a crisis of the faith.” Archbishop Hoser, papal envoy
If the Church eventually comes out with a negative response regarding the “apparitions” in Medjugorje, hopefully people will realize that any miracles of grace that they may have received while in Medjugorje were the result of the sacraments of the church and devotions like- perpetual adoration and the rosary that they participated in rather than being disappointed and perhaps disillusioned by the result of a negative decision. What should be understood and appealing to all of us Catholics is that we do not have to go to Medjugorje to participate in the Mass, the sacrament of reconciliation and other sacraments and devotions, even though it is true that in some parishes these are not as readily available.
If the Church eventually comes out with a negative response regarding the “apparitions” in Medjugorje, hopefully people will realize that any miracles of grace that they may have received while in Medjugorje were the result of the sacraments of the church and devotions like- perpetual adoration and the rosary that they participated in rather than being disappointed and perhaps disillusioned by the result of a negative decision. What should be understood and appealing to all of us Catholics is that we do not have to go to Medjugorje to participate in the Mass, the sacrament of reconciliation and other sacraments and devotions, even though it is true that in some parishes these are not as readily available.
C
commenter
Guest
Aside from discernment of the status of Medjugorje itself, this should be a wake-up call to papal envoys to Britain, to France, and other countries in the West. Why aren’t THEY addressing the identified spiritual deserts in Britain, France (and my American diocese)?“People perceive there things that they don’t have at home,” Archbishop Hoser said of Medjugorje. “In many old Christian countries, individual confessions do not exist anymore. In many countries, there is no Adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. In many countries, there is no Way of the Cross anymore. There’s no rosary anymore. In Britain, in France, they told me the last time they prayed the Way of the Cross was 30 years ago. And such dryness of sacred space obviously leads towards a crisis of the faith.” Archbishop Hoser, papal envoy
If the Church eventually comes out with a negative response regarding the “apparitions” in Medjugorje, hopefully people will realize that any miracles of grace that they may have received while in Medjugorje were the result of the sacraments of the church and devotions like- perpetual adoration and the rosary that they participated in rather than being disappointed and perhaps disillusioned by the result of a negative decision. What should be understood and appealing to all of us Catholics is that we do not have to go to Medjugorje to participate in the Mass, the sacrament of reconciliation and other sacraments and devotions, even though it is true that in some parishes these are not as readily available.
I am not so concerned about the 1% who travel to Medjugorje, but about the 99% back home.
Regardless of what you think about this private revelation, it points to the need for significant changes in North America and Western Europe. Older Catholics may lament the deemphasis on what the envoy mentioned, but younger Catholics have been raised on “Peace and Justice, Self Esteem, and Tolerance” and don’t know what they are missing. Renewal requires major changes in religious education, for starters.
Z
zab
Guest
There is definitely a hunger for the truth, a hunger for the teachings of the Catholic Church that needs to be fulfilled. And this hunger is apparent not only among older Catholics but among the youth as well. I have witnessed that hunger and I have witnessed it being fulfilled in our wonderful parish. Some of us are able to satisfy that hunger by participating in the life of our own parish. Some travel miles and miles to places where the sacraments are more readily available and practiced. With fondness I remember Mother Angelica, who died a year ago, who evangelized the rich and the poor, the good and the bad, the happy and the heartbroken through her satellite dish. Watch some of the old programs on YouTube and see the hunger in the eyes of her audience as they listen to Mother. At a time when there was such confusion as to what was happening in our Church at the time, Mother fed us.Aside from discernment of the status of Medjugorje itself, this should be a wake-up call to papal envoys to Britain, to France, and other countries in the West. Why aren’t THEY addressing the identified spiritual deserts in Britain, France (and my American diocese)?
I am not so concerned about the 1% who travel to Medjugorje, but about the 99% back home.
Regardless of what you think about this private revelation, it points to the need for significant changes in North America and Western Europe. Older Catholics may lament the deemphasis on what the envoy mentioned, but younger Catholics have been raised on “Peace and Justice, Self Esteem, and Tolerance” and don’t know what they are missing. Renewal requires major changes in religious education, for starters.
We are so blessed in our parish and have come a long way over the decades. We have a good faithful pastor, many opportunities for the sacraments and devotions, opportunity to attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form, a wonderful Catholic school, good Catholic programs for our youth and adults, a beautiful renovated Church and ongoing building project for future growth. It could be easy to take it all for granted. I’m sure that some do. But “the devil is prowling like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” even in holy places, sewing seeds of jealousy, envy, hatred, distrust, lack of trust in God etc, We must always be on our guard and keep up with our inner spiritual growth. If not, the Word of God falls on deaf ears. It breaks my heart to not only experience the falling away of some of my own adult children from God but I’ve also been heartbroken to witness the collapse of what appeared to be good Catholic families even today. And we have a wonderful parish!
I agree with you that the identified spiritual needs in Britain, France, many of our American diocese etc. needs to be addressed. But there is an attack on the family that even those in the most wonderful parishes who seem to have it all must still be on their guard.
C
commenter
Guest
“From the religious perspective, Medjugorje is very fertile grounds for religious vocations,” he said. About 610 priests have cited Medjugorje as a motivating force in their vocation, with the greatest number of these vocations coming from Italy, the U.S. and Germany."
(end quote from envoy)
- I have known many Americans who made a pilgrimage there, though I have not. All of them seem to be mature Christians, who regard this as authentic. I have not met or heard about anyone going there, who raised doubts about the whole thing.
- The people I heard about were, AFAIK, mature Christians before they went there. I am just wondering about what kind of person undertakes the expense, and I would think a fair amount of discomfort, to travel from North America to a fairly remote corner of Europe, not close to other places North Americans usually travel to. ****This ****population could quite validly hear the authentic guidance of God in ****any ****place.
If this is authentic, the movement of the Spirit would be spreading outward among the people who ****live ****in the next town, the next province, impacted by friends, neighbors, coworkers, extended family in Medjugorje itself.
J
J_Peterson
Guest
Is it just me or do these apparitions seem like Gnosticism through the back door? We have the Church and we have our Tradition including scripture. God is all around us, why do we need magic tricks?
P
ProdigalSun
Guest
Why must it be viewed as evil origins?It is more than complex: it is mystifying. I cannot rationalize so much good deriving itself from what must now be viewed as evil origins.
P
ProdigalSun
Guest
Who says that this isn’t happening?“From the religious perspective, Medjugorje is very fertile grounds for religious vocations,” he said. About 610 priests have cited Medjugorje as a motivating force in their vocation, with the greatest number of these vocations coming from Italy, the U.S. and Germany."
(end quote from envoy)
None of this tends to prove, or disprove, the authenticity of Medjugorje, as such. I think attributing vocations from the USA is shaky. I am more interested in vocations among those who live a short train ride away. What about the nearby parishes and dioceses - say 20 - 200 miles away? Are there more vocations, and more frequent confessions, in the church down the road that visitors never see?
- I have known many Americans who made a pilgrimage there, though I have not. All of them seem to be mature Christians, who regard this as authentic. I have not met or heard about anyone going there, who raised doubts about the whole thing.
- The people I heard about were, AFAIK, mature Christians before they went there. I am just wondering about what kind of person undertakes the expense, and I would think a fair amount of discomfort, to travel from North America to a fairly remote corner of Europe, not close to other places North Americans usually travel to. ****This ****population could quite validly hear the authentic guidance of God in ****any ****place.
If this is authentic, **the movement of the Spirit would be spreading outward among the people who ****live ******in the next town, the next province, impacted by friends, neighbors, coworkers, extended family in Medjugorje itself.
Who says that this must happen?
P
ProdigalSun
Guest
What magic tricks? Fatima; Lourdes; Guadalupe… Magic tricks???Is it just me or do these apparitions seem like Gnosticism through the back door? We have the Church and we have our Tradition including scripture. God is all around us, why do we need magic tricks?
What about these apparitions smack of Gnosticism?
P
ProdigalSun
Guest
I personally believe that the fact that the Vatican sent an emissary to the region bodes very well for the area and a positive review from the Vatican. That is not to say that a the Church will come out with a declaration on the Medugorje question any time soon. Certainly they will wait until after the supposed phenomenon stops. Along with this emissary, two other positives would be the Church has not come out and declared this site unworthy and jurisdiction of speaking on the phenomenon was taken out of the hands of the local Bishop a few years ago.
NOt sure how many people are aware of this but many of the seers have been shown 10 secrets. THey have been wrtten down and will be revealed by a Preist that was chosen by Mirjanna (a seer)
The third secret apparently will be a great sign of divine origin that cannot be destroyed by man and will remove doubt of the apparitions authenticity.
For me I believe the proper course of action is to allow the fruits of Medjugorje to grow and not stand in its way. If it is not from God it will pass away like all things made by man. If it is from God then I do not wish to stand against him. Time will tell and apparently it will be before the Priest who has been charged with revealling the secrets will die!
NOt sure how many people are aware of this but many of the seers have been shown 10 secrets. THey have been wrtten down and will be revealed by a Preist that was chosen by Mirjanna (a seer)
The third secret apparently will be a great sign of divine origin that cannot be destroyed by man and will remove doubt of the apparitions authenticity.
For me I believe the proper course of action is to allow the fruits of Medjugorje to grow and not stand in its way. If it is not from God it will pass away like all things made by man. If it is from God then I do not wish to stand against him. Time will tell and apparently it will be before the Priest who has been charged with revealling the secrets will die!
Z
zab
Guest
The bold that I emphasized in your post is incorrect or at least misleading. The Church never removed any authority of the local bishop over discerning events at Medjugorje and to this day respects and stands by their decision that it cannot be confirmed that apparitions and revelations are coming from the Mother of God. Archbishop Bertone wrote, "As for the credibility of the “apparitions” in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: “On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.”I personally believe that the fact that the Vatican sent an emissary to the region bodes very well for the area and a positive review from the Vatican. That is not to say that a the Church will come out with a declaration on the Medugorje question any time soon. Certainly they will wait until after the supposed phenomenon stops. Along with this emissary, two other positives would be the Church has not come out and declared this site unworthy and** jurisdiction of speaking on the phenomenon was taken out of the hands of the local Bishop a few years ago.
**NOt sure how many people are aware of this but many of the seers have been shown 10 secrets. THey have been wrtten down and will be revealed by a Preist that was chosen by Mirjanna (a seer)
The third secret apparently will be a great sign of divine origin that cannot be destroyed by man and will remove doubt of the apparitions authenticity.
For me I believe the proper course of action is to allow the fruits of Medjugorje to grow and not stand in its way. If it is not from God it will pass away like all things made by man. If it is from God then I do not wish to stand against him. Time will tell and apparently it will be before the Priest who has been charged with revealling the secrets will die!
The words of the bishop should not be ignored md-tm.ba/clanci/medugorje-secrets-messages-vocations-prayers-confessions-commissions
M
mikekle
Guest
Im not trying to offend anyone, but that statement reminds me of when our local weather man gives the forecast of ‘partly cloudy with a chance of rain’…well, no matter what happens, he is right, bases are covered…see what Im saying?April 10, 1991: “On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.”
C
commenter
Guest
The emissary is not evaluating if Mary is appearing at Medjugorje, but evaluating the provision of pastoral care, given the massive crowds.I personally believe that the fact that the Vatican sent an emissary to the region bodes very well for the area and a positive review from the Vatican. That is not to say that a the Church will come out with a declaration on the Medugorje question any time soon. Certainly they will wait until after the supposed phenomenon stops. Along with this emissary, two other positives would be the Church has not come out and declared this site unworthy and jurisdiction of speaking on the phenomenon was taken out of the hands of the local Bishop a few years ago.
NOt sure how many people are aware of this but many of the seers have been shown 10 secrets. THey have been wrtten down and will be revealed by a Preist that was chosen by Mirjanna (a seer)
The third secret apparently will be a great sign of divine origin that cannot be destroyed by man and will remove doubt of the apparitions authenticity.
For me I believe the proper course of action is to allow the fruits of Medjugorje to grow and not stand in its way. If it is not from God it will pass away like all things made by man. If it is from God then I do not wish to stand against him. Time will tell and apparently it will be before the Priest who has been charged with revealling the secrets will die!
The local bishop has not been supplanted in evaluating the marian aspect. His predecessor made his decision. The current bishop agrees with it. That is still the Church’s position. A final decision is not “pending”.
It is misleading to keep ignoring the decision by the appropriate church authority, and to pretend the “final” decision has not been made yet. For the next 100 years, there will always be some pending announcement, some new development, to justify continuing imprudent actions in defiance of the local Catholic bishop. In my diocese, every time someone disagrees with their pastor or bishop, the response is, “Well, the Church has not made its final decision. The pope has not spoken, therefore I will continue doing what I was doing.”
The Church often has to reach out pastorally to situations caused by Catholics acting imprudently: people who divorced and remarried; people who go to the SSPX; people who keep pushing unapproved private devotions, causing a crush of crowds. The fact that the Church provides extra pastoral care to special situations caused by imprudence does not mean the imprudence was harmless, let alone justified. We live in an anti-religious authority climate, bursting with websites urging Catholics to challenge their own bishop, and all local bishops.
Some Medjugorje supporters say “we’re totally different from the Call to Action types, or National Catholic Reporter, etc”. Are they different?
Z
zab
Guest
My post was in response to someone who stated,* “jurisdiction of speaking on the phenomenon was taken out of the hands of the local Bishop a few years ago.” *This seems to imply that authority was removed from the local bishop. However, Vatican officials have never stated that any such authority was removed from the local bishop. In fact, the Vatican to this day stands by the authority of the local bishop and his discernment in this matter. Do you see what I’m saying?Im not trying to offend anyone, but that statement reminds me of when our local weather man gives the forecast of ‘partly cloudy with a chance of rain’…well, no matter what happens, he is right, bases are covered…see what Im saying?
U
unafraid
Guest
It has been declared “inauthentic” by the church, therefore it must be deduced that it is a deception at its source. Who is “the father of all lies”?Why must it be viewed as evil origins?
P
ProdigalSun
Guest
The question of whether the apparitions are true or not is in the hands of the Vatican commision and the CDF. This jurisdiction was taken from the local Bishop years ago. What Bertone says about this is his Opinion and has the same weight as any other Bishop who believes.The bold that I emphasized in your post is incorrect or at least misleading. The Church never removed any authority of the local bishop over discerning events at Medjugorje and to this day respects and stands by their decision that it cannot be confirmed that apparitions and revelations are coming from the Mother of God. Archbishop Bertone wrote, "As for the credibility of the “apparitions” in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: “On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.”
The words of the bishop should not be ignored md-tm.ba/clanci/medugorje-secrets-messages-vocations-prayers-confessions-commissions
I’m not ignoring anyones point of view but it is not their place to confirm or deny the truth of Medjugorje. I will wait for the CDF to come out with an affirmation either way!
P
ProdigalSun
Guest
It has not been declared inauthentic. This statement is false!It has been declared “inauthentic” by the church, therefore it must be deduced that it is a deception at its source. Who is “the father of all lies”?
If it was declared such why has not the commision released its findings and the CDF explained this?
Your false statement makes no sense
Z
zab
Guest
It was not I who posted that the “apparitions” were declared “inauthentic”. However, the Vatican has not disrespected nor ruled out the opinions of Bishops Zanic and Peric. As I recall it was Bishop Peric who asked the Vatican to form a commission to study it further since people were continuing to come from all over the world. It was not like the matter “was taken from the local Bishop” in the manner in which you say.The question of whether the apparitions are true or not is in the hands of the Vatican commision and the CDF. This jurisdiction was taken from the local Bishop years ago. What Bertone says about this is his Opinion and has the same weight as any other Bishop who believes.
I’m not ignoring anyones point of view but it is not their place to confirm or deny the truth of Medjugorje. I will wait for the CDF to come out with an affirmation either way!
- Status
- Not open for further replies.