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deaconjohnO
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Now that is Clarity. and you did it in less than 200+ pages.
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shockerfan
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What does the Catechism say? The Pope didn’t change the CCC.Ok here is the question. Can a divorced Catholic who has entered into an “irregular” secular marriage be admitted to the Eucharist without obtaining an annulment first?
Please direct me to the document section that addresses this with clarity.
If the document does not address this question then it is not clear that it doesn’t address this.
Also, Archbishop Chaput clearly stated that the exhortation does not change Church teaching or discipline.
To answer your question: Any Catholic not in a state of grace cannot receive the Eucharist
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deaconjohnO
Guest
As a cleric I agree 100% and when I am approached I will always be on the alert to make that pastoral expression in regards to the eternal consequences of the individuals involved. Which means Loving by delicately sharing the truth regarding the reception of the Eucharist and the the Church’s teaching on Adultery.I respectfully disagree with the ambiguity and use I guess. Honestly I think the charge for clerics to take head of situations and make individually sensitive pastoral expressions is a positive.
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ARSpade
Guest
The bold part is what people have trouble mentioning to other people these days, for some reason.Think about one of Pope Francis’ favorite passages from the Bible: the story of the adulteress (John 8:3-11).
Did Jesus quote to the adulteress all of the scriptural teachings about the sinfulness of adultery? Did Jesus submit to carrying out the law and let her be stoned? Did Jesus say that the Pharisees were wrong in their assessment of the situation?
No
Also, Did Jesus tell the woman that she didn’t sin? Did he change the 6th commandment?
No
What Jesus did was show mercy and tell her to sin no more.
Now…think about what Pope Francis is trying to do. He is trying to offer people mercy, without changing any teaching on what is or is not sin, and bring as many people into God’s grace. Everybody’s situation with sin is different, and requires more than just quoting scripture if we want to follow the lead of Jesus.
I’ve got to hit confession over my own personal habitual sin that I’m working on not doing anymore. Should I just talk with my priest and get a “pastoral solution” in an internal forum that, well, I’ll probably screw up do it again so don’t worry about it and then show up to communion?
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
True, but the thrust of the exhortation seems aimed not at the “adultress” but at everyone else, for the most part. If it is aimed at the former, or at least both, the “go and sin no more” portion seems a bit muted. The “go and sin no more” would entail the Church showering each other with Christ’s mercy, and in this case, telling those in question “go and stop sleeping with your spouse/obtain an annulment/take steps to regulate your marriage/etc.” That to me is lacking here, but I could be wrong.Think about one of Pope Francis’ favorite passages from the Bible: the story of the adulteress (John 8:3-11).
Did Jesus quote to the adulteress all of the scriptural teachings about the sinfulness of adultery? Did Jesus submit to carrying out the law and let her be stoned? Did Jesus say that the Pharisees were wrong in their assessment of the situation?
No
Also, Did Jesus tell the woman that she didn’t sin? Did he change the 6th commandment?
No
What Jesus did was show mercy and tell her to sin no more.
Now…think about what Pope Francis is trying to do. He is trying to offer people mercy, without changing any teaching on what is or is not sin, and bring as many people into God’s grace. Everybody’s situation with sin is different, and requires more than just quoting scripture if we want to follow the lead of Jesus.
The focus seems to be on how to handle the sin in the context of people within our community versus how to correct sin.
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sps49
Guest
Your reading comprehension of what you yourself wrote is apparently dismal. Merely quoting another part of the document that you believe gives weight to your own biased interpretations is a weak to non existent response to what you actually said:Uh It is pretty directly stated inside the document, what do you think I misinterpreted about this:
It is true that general rules set forth a good which
can never be disregarded or neglected, but in their
formulation they cannot provide absolutely for all
particular situations. At the same time, it must be
said that, precisely for that reason, what is part of
a practical discernment in particular circumstances
cannot be elevated to the level of a rule. That
would not only lead to an intolerable casuistry, but
would endanger the very values which must be
preserved with special care
“This is a theme he repeats again and again. He understands 100% that there are people who want hard fast rules and is explicitly stating that they are not in the spirit of or to the benefit of the Church.”
You made an absolute statement, based on your interpretation of what was said, that there are people within the Church that are of no benefit. It is an absurd and manifestly unsound statement.
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shockerfan
Guest
I was referencing his book “The Name of God is Mercy”…which should also be considered for context of this exhortationIf that is Francis’ Favorite quote why did he use Matt 18:17 in paragraph 297. Which I think is alluding to the requirement of annulment.
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deaconjohnO
Guest
In light of your answer I will point out that you are incorrect. Your answer alludes to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics are not in a state of Grace. CCC1650 implies otherwise by using the word continence.What does the Catechism say? The Pope didn’t change the CCC.
Also, Archbishop Chaput clearly stated that the exhortation does not change Church teaching or discipline.
To answer your question: Any Catholic not in a state of grace cannot receive the Eucharist
Based on this I am wondering if you can conclude whether a divorced and remarried Catholic who remains in sexual relation with their second partner can be admitted to Eucharist while insisting without purpose of amendment to their marriage situation and sexual relations?
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deaconjohnO
Guest
Ok but since we are allowed to use contexts I think we need to throw in the contexts of the two previous popes and their writings as well. Which at least to me have a bit more clarity.I was referencing his book “The Name of God is Mercy”…which should also be considered for context of this exhortation
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shockerfan
Guest
I was reading Evangelii Gaudium…in that Francis talks about HOW to share the Gospel. A few key quotesAs a cleric I agree 100% and when I am approached I will always be on the alert to make that pastoral expression in regards to the eternal consequences of the individuals involved. Which means Loving by delicately sharing the truth regarding the reception of the Eucharist and the the Church’s teaching on Adultery.
“Nor do I believe that the papal magisterium should be expected to offer a definitive or complete word on every question what affects the Church and the world. It is not advisable for the Pope to take the place of local Bishops in the discernment of every issue which arises in their territory. In this sense, I am conscious of the need to promote a sound ‘decentralization’” (EG 16)
“Pastoral Ministry in a missionary style is not obsessed with the disjointed transmission of a multitude of doctrines to be insistently imposed.” (EG 35)
“The message is simplified, while losing none of its depth and truth” (EG 35)
In EG 37, he quotes St. Thomas Aquinas, “In itself mercy is the greatest of all virtues, since all others revolve around it and, more than this, it makes up for their deficiencies”
In EG 38 he stresses the need for a fitting sense of proportion to be maintained when preaching the Gospel. using the example of a parish priest preaching temperance 10 times and only preaching charity or justice 2 or 3 times.
Lastly in EG 39 he says “Just as the organic unity existing among the virtues means that no one of them can be excluded from the Christian ideal, so no truth may be denied.”
My point in citing EG is this: Nowhere does Pope Francis ever deny or change the truths taught by the Church over the last 2000 years. What Francis does is to emphasize the teaching of mercy and stressing the need to reach out to those on the margins who only hear a rules based view of the Gospel and never have that balanced with the message of mercy. (“Nor do I condemn you. You may go. But from now on, avoid this sin” Jn 8:11)
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shockerfan
Guest
I’m not sure why you say I’m incorrect. The Church teaches, based on the writings of Paul (1 Cor 11:23-29) that one must be in a state of grace to receive communion. Period. Your point would be in addition to what I wrote…stating that in order to receive communion the divorced and remarried must go to confession (get back into a state of grace), and “go and sin no more” (practice continence)In light of your answer I will point out that you are incorrect. Your answer alludes to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics are not in a state of Grace. CCC1650 implies otherwise by using the word continence.
Based on this I am wondering if you can conclude whether a divorced and remarried Catholic who remains in sexual relation with their second partner can be admitted to Eucharist while insisting without purpose of amendment to their marriage situation and sexual relations?
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shockerfan
Guest
I agree that Pope Francis can be more ambiguous that past Popes. However, I have seen him quote from past Popes (like when he cited St. Pope JP2 as to why he can’t consider women for ordination).Ok but since we are allowed to use contexts I think we need to throw in the contexts of the two previous popes and their writings as well. Which at least to me have a bit more clarity.
Again, Pope Francis is not changing anything, and statements from previous popes that are part of magisterial teaching should absolutely be considered for a more complete context
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deaconjohnO
Guest
Aeterni Patris was promulgated to combat directly the above underlined.I
“Nor do I believe that the papal magisterium should be expected to offer a definitive or complete word on every question what affects the Church and the world. It is not advisable for the Pope to take the place of local Bishops in the discernment of every issue which arises in their territory. In this sense, I am conscious of the need to promote a sound ‘decentralization’” (EG 16)
It is not advisable for the Pope to discern every issue? I suppose, but methinks verbiage and actions supporting two pinnacle sacraments and doctrines might be best handled by the buy who was given the authority and not a local Bishop…could you imagine the multitude of beliefs and practices if those German Bishops were given free range.
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OraLabora
Guest
Two quotes from the document worth pondering, in the section discussion irregular marriage situations:
Because of forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end.351/QUOTE]
And footnote 351:
. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039).351 In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments
My bold.
So while it’s not “anything goes”, it is also not a completely sealed door
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deaconjohnO
Guest
Ok we completely agree then. I’m guessing both of us managed to get this agreement in under 200+ pages.I’m not sure why you say I’m incorrect. The Church teaches, based on the writings of Paul (1 Cor 11:23-29) that one must be in a state of grace to receive communion. Period. Your point would be in addition to what I wrote…stating that in order to receive communion the divorced and remarried must go to confession (get back into a state of grace), and “go and sin no more” (practice continence)
As someone who has a Masters in Theology I must point out that I find your comments are extremely Clear and I found no ambiguity.
We must agree then that there is only really one way for the divorced and remarried to be admitted to communion. There might be different paths but certain steps MUST occur first. And for me at least in my limited intelligence (and apparently dozens of others across the blogosphere) I failed to see Francis even faintly allude to those required steps. The penitential path back to the Eucharist has always been available.
Jesus likely loves those words, “pastoral practice”. I’m thinking Satan loves them too.
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PatrickSebast
Guest
The answer is “In certain cases…” I suppose it is fair to say that the document doesn’t come right out and say this as clearly as humanly possible, since it is a footnote. But there isn’t much arguing that admission to the sacraments is explicitly permitted ‘in certain cases’ by that footnote.Ok here is the question. Can a divorced Catholic who has entered into an “irregular” secular marriage be admitted to the Eucharist without obtaining an annulment first?
Please direct me to the document section that addresses this with clarity.
If the document does not address this question then it is not clear that it doesn’t address this.
And if you ask “What cases” then the answer in the document is that looking to apply rigorous rules isn’t a proper pastoral approach to dealing with the individual.
From Paragraph 305:
For this reason, a pastor cannot feel that
it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those
living in “irregular” situations, as if they were
stones to throw at people’s lives…
…it is possible that in an objective situation of sin –
which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully
such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can
love and can also grow in the life of grace and
charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this
end. *351
Then reference 351 states: In certain cases, this can include the help of the
sacraments…I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize
for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for
the weak”
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rose_kelly
Guest
I heard something briefly relating to this on the BBC earlier. bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35994408’http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/i...dit_LOsservatore_Romano_CNA_4_2_16.jpgVatican City, Apr 8, 2016 / 04:00 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Catholics who have divorced-and-remarried need the fullness of Church teaching. They also need a wise pastoral and community response to their difficulties that can help them grow in the Christian life, Pope Francis said on Friday in his new document on love in the family.
“The Church’s pastors, in proposing to the faithful the full ideal of the Gospel and the Church’s teaching, must also help them to treat the weak with compassion, avoiding aggravation or unduly harsh or hasty judgements,” the Pope said in Amoris Laetitia.
Pope Francis’ highly anticipated post-synodal apostolic exhortation on the gifts and challenges of family life was published April 8.
Titled Amoris Laetitia, or The Joy of Love, the document was presented to journalists in Italian, French, English, German, Spanish and Portuguese. Signed March 19, the Feast of St. Joseph, the release of the document was delayed in order to allow time for its translation into other languages.
The apostolic exhortation is the conclusion of a two-year synod process discussing both the beauty and challenges of family life today. Hosted at the Vatican in 2014 and 2015, these synods gathered hundreds of bishops from around the world.
While much of the Western secular media focused its coverage on homosexuality and the question of communion for the divorced-and-civilly remarried, actual topics discussed in the meetings were much broader, with synod fathers touching on themes such as domestic violence, incest and abuse within families, and marriage preparation.
Pope Francis acknowledged the attention generated by the synods, saying, “The debates carried on in the media, in certain publications and even among the Church’s ministers, range from an immoderate desire for total change without suf¬ficient reflection or grounding, to an attitude that would solve everything by applying general rules or deriving undue conclusions from particular theological considerations.”
The wide-ranging document included Biblical reflections on family, as well as discussion of the family as a place of faith and labor, celebration and tears. The Pope spoke about sexuality within marriage and on the sometimes devastating effects of poverty and migration on families. He also touched on the importance of communication within the family, the challenges of raising children in a technology-saturated world, and the witness of virginity.
Pope Francis devoted a substantial section of the document to the topic of educating children, observing, “The family is thus the place where parents become their children’s first teachers in the faith.” He also offered suggestions for improving marriage preparation programs, inviting engaged couples to consider a simple wedding and to set aside technological distractions.
In a world where many have lost respect for marriage and are delaying the union or choosing cohabitation instead, the Church must speak up, Pope Francis said.
“As Christians, we can hardly stop advocating marriage simply to avoid countering contemporary sensibilities, or out of a desire to be fashionable or a sense of helplessness in the face of human and moral failings,” he reflected. “We would be depriving the world of values that we can and must offer.”
At the same time, he said, “there is no sense in simply decrying present-day evils, as if this could change things. Nor it is helpful to try to impose rules by sheer authority. What we need is a more responsible and generous effort to present the reasons and motivations for choosing marriage and the family, and in this way to help men and women better to respond to the grace that God offers them.”
Full article…
I welcome the Pope’s comments in the document. And I’m glad you posted with the full article link at the end of the page, because with regard to details on these matters we cant always be sure how accurate reports from media news channels are.
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PatrickSebast
Guest
The problem is ambiguity of my grammatical structure sorry. The ‘they’ was referring to the subject of ‘Hard Fast Rules’ not the people.Your reading comprehension of what you yourself wrote is apparently dismal. Merely quoting another part of the document that you believe gives weight to your own biased interpretations is a weak to non existent response to what you actually said:
“This is a theme he repeats again and again. He understands 100% that there are people who want hard fast rules and is explicitly stating that they are not in the spirit of or to the benefit of the Church.”
You made an absolute statement, based on your interpretation of what was said, that there are people within the Church that are of no benefit. It is an absurd and manifestly unsound statement.
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shockerfan
Guest
My friend, you and I have the very same tasks:Ok we completely agree then. I’m guessing both of us managed to get this agreement in under 200+ pages.
As someone who has a Masters in Theology I must point out that I find your comments are extremely Clear and I found no ambiguity.
We must agree then that there is only really one way for the divorced and remarried to be admitted to communion. There might be different paths but certain steps MUST occur first. And for me at least in my limited intelligence (and apparently dozens of others across the blogosphere) I failed to see Francis even faintly allude to those required steps. The penitential path back to the Eucharist has always been available.
Jesus likely loves those words, “pastoral practice”. I’m thinking Satan loves them too.
- Understand the Pope’s teaching in this latest Exhortation, in its proper context (which is a HUGE challenge). This back and forth between you and I is an important part of that process. I have to go an check out Aeterni Patris…thanks for the reference!
- Talk people “off the ledge” who have a gross misunderstanding of what the Pope said. You know as well as I do that people are not going to read what Francis wrote, rather they are going to read a biased summary of it. One headline from an article “Pope to church: Accept gays, divorced Catholics” (my stomach is starting to reject my breakfast). Unfortunately, I would guess more Catholics get their catechesis from the liberal media and not from authentic Catholic sources.
Blessings to you, and thank you for being a Deacon!
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Padres1969
Guest
So after months of hand wringing, worries that Pope Francis was some “evil liberal” who was going to overthrow centuries of church doctrine, etc… nothing really changed at all. :doh2:Canon lawyer Ed Condon:
Francis has left Church teaching on Communion for the divorced and remarried absolutely intact
catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/04/08/francis-has-left-church-teaching-on-communion-for-the-divorced-and-remarried-absolutely-intact/
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