Papal exhortation avoids clear statement on Communion

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Hoosier_Daddy said:
Our church is fractured. And this type of ambiguity does not help us be unified.
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The point of the document was not for the pope to provide clear, ambiguous prescriptions on divorce and remarriage, contraception, abortion, gay marriage, etc. Rather, it was to guide local pastors – bishops in each region and diocese – in the general pastoral approach they were to take and to put the authority in their hands to guide their flock. Pope Francis favors a greater decentralization of authority – or, stated differently, a focus on the authority of the bishops – as was mapped out by Vatican II.
 
adowcday said:
The point of the document was not for the pope to provide clear, ambiguous prescriptions on divorce and remarriage, contraception, abortion, gay marriage, etc. Rather, it was to guide local pastors – bishops in each region and diocese – in the general pastoral approach they were to take and to put the authority in their hands to guide their flock. Pope Francis favors a greater decentralization of authority – or, stated differently, a focus on the authority of the bishops – as was mapped out by Vatican II.
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Odd then that a two year synod and its fruit are given so much publicity given that it is "just for “pastors”:rolleyes:
 
deaconjohnO said:
Ok here is the question. Can a divorced Catholic who has entered into an “irregular” secular marriage be admitted to the Eucharist without obtaining an annulment first?

Please direct me to the document section that addresses this with clarity.

If the document does not address this question then it is not clear that it doesn’t address this.
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I haven’t read the Exhortation, but I’m also wondering if it addresses this question.

If a first marriage remains valid, then a second marriage is not valid, without regard to culpability. So can a person in an invalid second marriage receive communion?
 
Little_Sheep said:
The truth is that even though he doesn’t say much at all about homosexuality in this lengthy, lengthy Exhortation, what he does say is the kindest thing that an official Catholic Church document has ever had to say about homosexuality. I’ve only read about 2/3 of it but he does say that same sex unions have value - the one he names is “stability.”

It might not seem like much but it’s a far cry from “sodomy” and “intrinsically disordered” and “lifestyle choice.”

I mean did you honestly ever think you would live to see the day when a Pope recognized a same sex union in a positive way?
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I just started reading on Chapter 1 but there us no way he means same sex unions provide stability. They provide promiscuity. That is a documented fact in Church documents and in public research.
 
LittleFlower378 said:
I just started reading on Chapter 1 but there us no way he means same sex unions provide stability. They provide promiscuity. That is a documented fact in Church documents and in public research.
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Can you quote from some Church documents that say that same sex unions cause promiscuity?
 
Pug said:
First kyrie03 quotes the Pope (bolding was Kyrie’s, I think):306. In every situation, when dealing with those who have difficulties in living God’s law to the full, the invitation to pursue the via caritatis must be clearly heard. Fraternal charity is the first law of Christians (cf. Jn 15:12; Gal 5:14).
Then Kyrie03 notes:

Note that the Pope says first law of “Christians”. The greatest commandment in the Law and the second that is like it are from the Old Testament. Of course Christians use them and they appear in the NT, but they first appear in the OT. So I think by using words “first law of Christians” that probably intends to refer to something new, a new law from the New Testament, something that is called by Jesus to be “my commandment”, and a “new commandment” the commandment to “love one another as I (Jesus) have loved you”.
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You may be correct in the analysis that His Holiness wants to draw attention to John 15:34-35
“I give you a new commandment: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.”
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Footnote in Haydock Bible says: *This commandment was already in the old law, where it is written, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; how then does our Savior call it a new command? It is new , not because we simply love another, but because we love one another as he has loved us; not as men love one another, as being fellow creatures, but united in love, as being children of the Most High; that so we may be brethren to his only-begotten Son, bearing to all the same love, that he has borne to us. St Augustine tract 64 -By this shall I more-over know that you truly love me. *

But Pope Francis references John 15:12
“Then after he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, having sat down again, he said to therm, Know you what I have done to you?”
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and Galatians 5:14 (I also include verse 13)
“But you, brethren, have been called unto liberty: only give not out liberty on occasion to the flesh, but by charity of the spirit, serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”
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Footnote in Haydock Bible explaining verse 13 says: *An occasion to the flesh; i.e. that you abuse not, by a vicious life, that Christian liberty which Christ hath purchased for you, but be united in the spirit of charity. *

To claim that** fraternal charity is the first law of Christians** is misleading. The first law is love of God. Period. The second law merits nothing if it is not based on the first.
And one of them, a doctor of the law, asked him, tempting him, "Master, which is the greatest commandment of the law? Jesus said to him: “Thous shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.” (Matt 22:35-40)
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Footnote in Haydock Bible explains: The commandment of mutual love had been previously given, but evidently misconstrued and abridged by the Jews to friends only, to this life only, and for earthly respects: but Jesus Christ reneweth it and enlargeth it after the form of his own love towards us, and giveth grace to observe it.

This papal exhortation is easily misconstrued and abridged……especially when the love of God is absent.
 
I think that if you can’t (or won’t) understand that nuance and ambiguity are two different things, there’s not much point in anyone attempting to “simplify” their language enough so that you feel like everything’s “clear.”
 
JosieN said:
What about leaving important things out?

Here’s what the Guardian has to say about the “greater acceptance of gay men, lesbians…”

Quote:
The church’s traditional definition of same-sex relationships as “intrinsically disordered” is notably absent from the exhortation, however.

Martin Pendergast, a Catholic LGBT activist in London, said the tone marked a new approach. The pope “clearly recognises the existence and experience of people in same-sex unions, although it’s still not willing to equate such unions with marriage. But the door is still open. Conservatives won’t like this document,” he said.

theguardian.com/world/201…atholic-church
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Why do you care about Guardian and those self-proclaimed “Catholic” gays?
 
This thread:
There’s mud in the puddle in my yard. This is Bob’s fault because he called it a mud puddle.
 
JimG said:
I haven’t read the Exhortation, but I’m also wondering if it addresses this question.

If a first marriage remains valid, then a second marriage is not valid, without regard to culpability. So can a person in an invalid second marriage receive communion?
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Read Jummy Akin’s article.
 
JurisPrudens said:
Why do you care about Guardian and those self-proclaimed “Catholic” gays?
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You seem to be taking to heart the pope’s exhortation that “every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration.” There’s no better way to show respect than to call some Catholics only “self-proclaimed ‘Catholics’.” 😉
 
christofirst said:
I can’t find a full version of the document in English online yet, but based initial reviews from various news sources, there seems to be just enough conformity to doctrine, and wiggle room, to let traditionalists and progressives find something they can claim as a victory.
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It is called “truth”.
 
alwayswill said:
CNN breaking news headline

“In a highly anticipated paper, Pope Francis urges greater acceptance of gay men, lesbians, divorced Catholics and other people living in what the Catholic Church calls “irregular” situations.”

Maybe he is being misquoted , maybe he is not:
That’s what happens when you are not clear
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No - that is what happens when you read the secular media, which has a completely different agenda than the Church, and a historically abysmal understanding of what the Church teaches.
 
ARSpade said:
From the CNN article:

“suggests that priests should use their own discretion on whether divorced Catholics in new marriages can take Communion.”

It doesn’t actually say that, but, as you say, that’s what happens when you’re not clear. And that’s how it will be applied.
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A) he is clear - try reading the document itself; and B) you are not qualified to make such statements concerning priests.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
It’s what I expected. Ambiguity that will breed disobedience and confusion. Instead of helping families it is further damaging us. In my opinion, saying this is about the family is like calling birth control family planning or abortion a “choice”.

I’m sad.
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Did you actually read the document? It seems a bit early to be sad; try reading Jimmie Akins analysis.
 
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