Papal exhortation avoids clear statement on Communion

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And it would appear that disciplinary change has the effect of changing doctrine. It’s just never adverted to. If we keep saying doctrine has not changed, but do things opposed to doctrine, then doctrine has changed.
Some people will believe this, but one thing the synod revealed is that the majority of bishops do not believe reception of communion by those who have been divorced is a doctrine of the Church. It is not something you will ever find defined as such. It is a conclusion drawn in a syllogism. (In my own estimation a syllogism in which definitions are not properly defined). But again, most of the bishops (at the synod) did not agree that this was a defined doctrine of the Church.
 
Could you tell me which discipline has been changed. What was the discipline, where was it stated, and what is it now? Just one will do.

Dan
There have been numerous quotations here about how this “internal forum” is something made up and its use dissent. Now we have the Holy Father referring to its role. No, discipline has not changed, if by that you mean canon law. What has changed is that the Holy Father is saying some times the right thing will transcend discipline, again, as codified in canon law.
 
Can you show me in Canon law where it explicitly says the D & R cannot receive the sacraments?
You were the one who first raised the issue of Canon Law, you said that it was an issue of discipline, of Canon Law, that priests could effectively over-rule this. Why did you raise Canon Law if you now claim it has no bearing on the issue?
 
Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich’s prophecy is interesting:

“It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps”
 
You were the one who first raised the issue of Canon Law, you said that it was an issue of discipline, of Canon Law, that priests could effectively over-rule this. Why did you raise Canon Law if you now claim it has no bearing on the issue?
Maybe this is all done to create confusion. Someone must have known this whole thing would be a problem. I feel badly for the priests in the parishes, they may have the greatest responsibility and burden to carry, as the people will come to them for advice.
 
The problem is not the entering into the (legally) second marriage that bars one from receiving; it is the *ongoing *sexual relationship. Each time they engage in sexual activity, they are committing a sin (objectively speaking).
This objective judgement of sexual sins would not seem certain if we cannot be sure of the couples previous bond before God. It may be fornication, but it may not even be that if a Rad San is one day granted.

All authority can be sure of is an objective contradiction of Indissolubility by reason of the public civil marriage. That public state, not presumed sexual acts alone, is primarily what bars from Communion. Ambiguous sexual acts in this state exacerbate the gravity of the contradiction but do not seem to be the cause of this barring from Communion.

It seems the gravity of the contradiction has degrees (eg divorce) and can be lessened to the extent that private Communion is possible.
 
You were the one who first raised the issue of Canon Law, you said that it was an issue of discipline, of Canon Law, that priests could effectively over-rule this. Why did you raise Canon Law if you now claim it has no bearing on the issue?
Simple. Because I thought it was in Canon law until your question made me look it up this morning. My bad for not researching it first. It is not explicitly defined in Canon Law.
 
Maybe this is all done to create confusion. Someone must have known this whole thing would be a problem. I feel badly for the priests in the parishes, they may have the greatest responsibility and burden to carry, as the people will come to them for advice.
Yes indeed, priests in parishes are going to be put in difficult position. The confusion and spin put on this document will result in people coming forward under the notion that they are now entitled to receive Communion.The different interpretations and misunderstandings that exist are going to put priests in an unenviable position. Do they stand firm with their convictions at the risk of very upset and angry parishioners. What will the results of situations where one parish priest won’t give Communion, but the priest in the next parish gives Communion and maybe even peaches this from the pulpit?

It is also interested that apparently the Pope has said that he does not remember including the controversial footnote 351.

lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-i-dont-remember-controversial-footnote-in-exhortation
 
Simple. Because I thought it was in Canon law until your question made me look it up this morning. My bad for not researching it first. It is not explicitly defined in Canon Law.
But it is in the Catechism through the relationship between several teachings. Can a person not in a state of grace receive Communion? Is adultery grave matter? Is divorce and remarriage (while the first marriage is valid) adultery? Is marriage indissoluble?

Your post was interesting however in that it seemed to imply that an individual priest could over-rule Canon Law. That would raise the authority of priests to a whole new level.
 
And it would appear that disciplinary change has the effect of changing doctrine. It’s just never adverted to. If we keep saying doctrine has not changed, but do things opposed to doctrine, then doctrine has changed.
Agreed.
 
But it is in the Catechism through the relationship between several teachings. Can a person not in a state of grace receive Communion?
Unless the priest knows the person and the state of their soul, there’s nothing really to stop the person from receiving communion. It then becomes a matter between the person and God, and their confessor if they elect to repent of their sins including the one of sacrilege.
Is adultery grave matter?
Yes.
Is divorce and remarriage (while the first marriage is valid) adultery?
Technically, yes. Practically-speaking, it makes no sense to equate the second union of someone who was abandoned, or left because of abuse, with the adultery of someone philandering while still married and living with their spouse. That’s neither just more merciful and the Holy Father has made this distinction.
Is marriage indissoluble?
Technically, a valid sacramental marriage is. But when one looks at the annulment rate in the US and probably here in Canada as well… one wonders if the cynics aren’t right by calling it “divorce, Catholic-style”.
Your post was interesting however in that it seemed to imply that an individual priest could over-rule Canon Law. That would raise the authority of priests to a whole new level.
Not so much overrule as finding someone in grey areas that Canon Law can’t neatly categorize. The matters of excommunication in Canon Law apply for instance, to procuring an abortion. We all agree that it is grave matter and grounds for excommunication. Would you not agree however, that a pregnant teen forced to have an abortion by a violent boyfriend, or by parents worried about the family’s reputation, or because the child was the product of incest and is simply revolted by having to carry it, does not bear the same culpability as a woman having an abortion because it simply “isn’t convenient” to have a baby at this time? If you can nuance this, how can you then not nuance “adultery” in a long-term stable second union, with children, following abandonment or abuse by the first spouse? Thankfully the Holy Father can see the difference.

It’s interesting that the statement in the CCC on masturbation, for instance, is every bit as vague as to what mitigating circumstances may be in that case as it is in the case of adultery for the D & R. I haven’t seen too many people slagging Saint John Paul II over it (as he is the signatory of the CCC). Yet it seems Pope Francis is fair game. Frankly, it disgusts, me, and I see conservatives on this issue every bit as rebellious against the Holy Father as they accuse liberals of being.

I like the middle way: orthodox and obedient. I come from a part of the world that had a highly clericalist and borderline Jansenist local Church. Vatican II finally shook that off. I would not want to go back to it and most Catholics I think share that view. Perhaps that colours my thinking, but so too does my Benedictine background which makes me 100% obedient to the Holy Father. Do I wish he were clearer in his document? Yes. But at the same time I take what was written at face value, and at face value he is expecting a change on how we deal with this issue. Whether that involves communion for the D & R is, I think to me, clear it does in very limited and exceptional cases as demanded by charity and common sense and also for other irregular marriages as well.

People today are broken and need healing, and many want to come back to the Church. They need a path that brings them in, not that scolds them and turns them away.
 
People today are broken and need healing, and many want to come back to the Church. They need a path that brings them in, not that scolds them and turns them away.
From my understanding they can come back, they just can’t receive Holy Communion because their soul is not in a pure state. If a priest cannot be certain of what the state of their soul is, I think they should not give Holy Communion. Only God knows for certain the state of their soul and if there are doubts it would be wrong.
 
From my understanding they can come back, they just can’t receive Holy Communion because their soul is not in a pure state. If a priest cannot be certain of what the state of their soul is, I think they should not give Holy Communion. Only God knows for certain the state of their soul and if there are doubts it would be wrong.
If a priest can only give communion to those he knows to be in a “pure state,” he could not give communion to anyone.
 
If a priest can only give communion to those he knows to be in a “pure state,” he could not give communion to anyone.
But if he is aware that they have been married twice that is different.
 
But if he is aware that they have been married twice that is different.
So, does he have to be sure that communicants are “pure” or not? No priest can be sure any of his parishioners are “pure”.
 
There have been numerous quotations here about how this “internal forum” is something made up and its use dissent. Now we have the Holy Father referring to its role. No, discipline has not changed, if by that you mean canon law. What has changed is that the Holy Father is saying some times the right thing will transcend discipline, again, as codified in canon law.
For the purposes of the discussion I’m trying to have with “OraLabora”, I will accept whatever definition for “discipline” that he wants to use.

Dan
 
People today are broken and need healing, and many want to come back to the Church. They need a path that brings them in, not that scolds them and turns them away.
And circumventing confession and going directly to communion will do that?
 
So, does he have to be sure that communicants are “pure” or not? No priest can be sure any of his parishioners are “pure”.
That is why I said when in doubt, but there would have to be a cause for the doubt. like if a priest saw someone murder another person, there would be doubt to the state of that person’s soul.
 
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