Papal infallibility in documents

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. “The Church” is the People that God gathers in the whole world. in Acts 2 ,Mary was present ,she is also the Mother of the Church Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”
 
You proved my thread with your snippets.
 
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Let’s go into this using something I got together earlier, maybe making a different point, but has useful documents cited:

The Catechism states that when Our Lady gave birth to Jesus, she gave birth to all the members of the Church.

The Vatican II documents state that at Pentecost, the Church is ‘sanctified’; that Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit, that He might remain with us; that ‘…the “Acts of the Apostles” began with Pentecost, just as Christ was conceived in the Virgin Mary’.

The Part One ‘The Professional of Faith’ (Section Two) of the Catechism, we read: 'In her, the “wonders of God” that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested…722

The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily"102 should herself be “full of grace.”’

In Ineffabilis Deus, we are told: ‘…the Roman Pontiffs…denounced as false and absolutely foreign to the mind of the Church the opinion of those who held and affirmed that it was not the conception of the Virgin but her sanctification that was honored by the Church. They never thought that greater leniency should be extended toward those who, attempting to disprove the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin, devised a distinction between the first and second instance of conception and inferred that the conception which the Church celebrates was not that of the first instance of conception but the second. In fact, they held it was their duty not only to uphold and defend with all their power the Feast of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin but also to assert that the true object of this veneration was her conception considered in its first instant.’

'In such allusions the Fathers taught that the exalted dignity of the Mother of God, her spotless innocence and her sanctity unstained by any fault, had been prophesied in a wonderful manner.

In like manner did they use the words of the prophets to describe this wondrous abundance of divine gifts and the original innocence of the Virgin of whom Jesus was born. They celebrated the august Virgin as the spotless dove, as the holy Jerusalem, as the exalted throne of God, as the ark and house of holiness which Eternal Wisdom built, and as that Queen who, abounding in delights and leaning on her Beloved, came forth from the mouth of the Most High, entirely perfect, beautiful, most dear to God and never stained with the least blemish.’

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In Marialis Cultis, we are told: '‘For example, in the celebration of the Immaculate Conception which texts recognise the beginning of the Church, the spotless Bride of Christ. In the Assumption they recognise the beginning that has already been, and the image of what, for the whole Church, must still come to pass. In the Mystery of Mary’s motherhood they confess that she is the Mother of the Head and of the members – the holy Mother of God and therefore the provident Mother of the Church. When the liturgy turns its gaze either to the primitive Church or to the Church of our own days it always finds Mary. In the primitive Church she is seen praying with the apostles.’

From this, we can see:

The Immaculate Conception and Our Lady’s sanctification are not to be celebrated as two different events - we are to celebrate the Immaculate Conception; this Feast celebrates the prophesied gift from all eternity, of grace in its fullness, in which Our Lady was sanctified at Conception, saved by the ‘future’ merits of her Son’s glorious death on the Cross.

The Church was born in the Immaculate Conception - in her, is ‘the beginning of the Church’.

Our Lady gives birth to all the members of the Church, when giving birth to her Son.
 
Our Lady was prepared by grace. She is the Immaculate Conception. She is the City of God:

‘They celebrated the august Virgin as the spotless dove, as the holy Jerusalem, as the exalted throne of God, as the ark and house of holiness which Eternal Wisdom built.’

Pray your litanies.
 
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Learn your deposit of faith. It is a gift. Read the mystics of the Catholic Church. Pray the Rosary.
 
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friardchips said:
So those who translated did not do it properly? 🤨
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You do realize that you are using the exact same argument that others use to claim the brothers of the Lord are Mary’s other children?

They claim if they were cousins then why didn’t the translators just translate it as cousins.
 
friardchips said:
Priests are not infallible. Church teaching is.
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But aren’t you claiming here that your interpretation of this document is infallible?

Everyone here would be more than willing to accept your interpretation of this document when you post the official Church teaching that shows your interpretation is the correct interpretation.

Just be honest here. Without giving us more information to backup your interpretation we have no reason to believe that you are correct and Fr. George is wrong.

God Bless
 
Our Lady is the Mystical Spouse of the Holy Spirit who was praying with the Apostles two days before Pentecost.

Our Lady’s sanctified conception in which she is The Immaculate Conception was prophesied in Hebrew Scriptures.

The moment she is conceived, the Church has begun, saved by her Son in advance by means of special gift, i.e:- in the Magnificat, Our Lady uses the term: “…my saviour”. She is already saved.

Therefore, when we speak of the Church, we ought to be reverent, because the Church herself cannot err - she is holy. The Church is made manifest in the person of Our Lady who is to eventually conceive and bear the Christ-Child. This is why when people sin, they are cut off on some level. The Church is the “spotless bride”. Always pure.

If the Immaculate Conception was not the beginning of the Church then Our Lady would only be Mother to it from a certain point onward and therefore not conceived immaculately, because the very reason for the Immaculate Conception was that she could give birth to Christ and His Church IN THE FULLNESS OF GRACE but then if that was the case she would not have been Mother at all, which she is.

Our Lady is both a part and Mother to the Church. If she is Mother to it, then she is also part, as a Mother is joined to its offspring. And to be both part and Mother, the Church must begin in her.

IN GRACE.

Through the hierarchy of grace the Church is fed.
 
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friardchips said:
Learn your deposit of faith. It is a gift. Read the mystics of the Catholic Church. Pray the Rosary.
yes
Our Lady is the Mystical Spouse of the Holy Spirit who was praying with the Apostles two before Pentecost.
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yes
friardchips said:
Our Lady’s sanctified conception in which she is The Immaculate Conception was prophesied in Hebrew Scriptures.
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Really? nice to know,well Jesus also sanctified himself written in the Christian Bible, though being God and sinless. John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth.
 
I think we should just forget about the thread and move on.
 
I believe you have a misunderstanding about when a papal document is considered infallible. The pope is only protected by infallibility when he “proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals”. (Papal Infallibility). You have to be careful when reading documents to determine when they are intending to define something as infallible vs. just normal teaching. Jimmy Akin talks about this all the time on calls to the radio show.

For example, from Munificentissimus Deus sections 44-45, “…by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.”

The above contains clear language that Pope Pius is declaring the Assumption of Mary as an infallible dogma of the faith. There is no language like that anywhere in Marialis Cultus. That document even says its purpose is “to restore and enhance the liturgy and to make more fruitful the participation of the faithful in the sacred mysteries” not to define a dogma.
 
You have maybe misunderstood. I am not writing well at present.

Basically, what I am saying, is that an Apostolic Exhortation is not necessarily infallible except in certain circumstances. One being that it is pointing to already established and dogmatically defined truths.

This one stands out as being a case-in-point because the saint writes that the texts used in the celebration of the Immaculate Conception recognise the beginning of the Church - texts which prove truths existing within the infallible teaching and therefore understood as being the faith of the Church.
 
Our Lady was given a special gift IN THE FULLNESS OF GRACE. Saved at conception in the future merits of her Son’s life, death and Resurrection. as Willed by God from the Beginning. All prophesied.
 
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friardchips said:
This one stands out as being a case-in-point because the saint writes that the texts used in the celebration of the Immaculate Conception recognise the beginning of the Church - texts which prove truths existing within the infallible teaching and therefore understood as being the faith of the Church.
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But why does this one stand out is the question?

Marialis Cultus appears to be an exhortaion on…

FOR THE RIGHT ORDERING AND DEVELOPMENT
OF DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

The entire document is about proper devotion to Mary. Not about “the BEGGINNING” of the Church. You pulled one line out of a document about Devotion to Mary and are trying to claim that the Pope was trying to teach us infallible about when the Church began. This is not the subject of this encyclical, so why are you trying to make it seem like this is the what is being taught to us here?

God Bless
 
Because it sums up beautifully without extrapolation what it is that the Church believes in ‘right ordering and development of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary’.
 
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