Papal Infallibility only happened twice?

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I’m not looking to get around any teachings. This just seems needlessly obscure though.
The fretting over infallibility is a modern obsession of lay Catholics. This is a good article to give some history.

https://www.arcaneknowledge.org/catholic/infall.htm

With the controversies surrounding the definition of papal infallibility in the nineteenth century, Catholics became ever more obsessed with distinguishing mutable and non-mutable teachings, now under the rubric of infallible versus non-infallible. This was no longer merely an answer to Protestants, but also became a basis for disputes among Catholics, as though teachings of the supreme authority could be prioritized, with non-infallible teachings taken less seriously. This emphasis on infallibility as the basis of authority (rather than the authority of the pope, council or bishop as such) had some ruinous consequences. First, the decrees of the popes became subject to a sort of judicial review by canonists, theologians and other scholars who sought to determine whether a given teaching met the requirements of infallibility, based on language or document type. Yet, as the Fathers of the Vatican Council noted in their discussions, it was impossible to identify any special formula or document type by which past popes exercised infallible teaching authority. It sufficed that the Pope expressed his will, and taught as Pope (which is all ex cathedra means). That is to say, the papal office as such is the basis of authority, and infallibility is just a property of this authority.
 
The fretting over infallibility is a modern obsession of lay Catholics.
I’m not “obsessed” by it. I had a question about it, and I thought it would make for a good discussion as I did not see a previous thread on the forum.

And it’s a “modern” issue because the doctrine of papal infallibility was only recently defined. Which begs the question of why it was needed if the Church had gotten along for about 1870 years without it.
 
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I didn’t mean you personally were obsessed. I was referring generally to the article title in the link.
 
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I guess there is misconception where people think most what the Pope says is infallible. Then they try to use that to invalidate the Catholic Church.

However, I’ve also heard Bishop Barron speaking with Ben Shapiro said this has happened only twice as you mention.
 
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Which begs the question of why it was needed if the Church had gotten along for about 1870 years without it.
I guess it was a response to the new phenomena within the Church of Catholics questioning submission to papal teaching. I have always made a point of teaching my kids that they can be completely unafraid of submitting unquestioningly because the Magisteriums authority to teach is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit. To that end we have changed out perspective on our obligation to address climate change and our obligation to refugees to be in line with papal teaching. We have done that as a family to keep in the current of the Catholic Church.
 
That’s fine, but I don’t think climate change is an issue on which the Pope would ever claim to be infallible, as it’s got too many scientific overtones.
 
The thing you don’t understand is tha papal infallibility was not invented when it was defined. Papal infallibility was always there since the beginning, otherwise it coud not have been defined as part of the faith at Vatican I. In the same way, the Virgin Mary didn’t became immaculate when Immaculate conception was defined. The definition of dogma simply makes clear and confirms that something is, indeed, part of the faith. It doesn’t create an new part of the faith. Many people already believed in papal infallibilty before it was defined. In fact, a council doesn’t become infallible until it is aproved by that pope, and the teaching of Vatican I would not be infallible if the pope wasn’t infallible to begin with.
Also, in order to understand which teachings in general are infallible and which not, you may want to look at this document (Doctrinal Commentary, middle of the page):
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...c_con_cfaith_doc_1998_professio-fidei_en.html
 
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So, I read the article posted by Emeraldlady above. And it says,
Even though only two doctrines have been declared ex cathedra, there are many others that the church professes must be believed. Some of these are laid out in the 1998 “Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio fidei” issued by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

According to this document, many teachings are “irreformable” and “definitive” and as such can be seen as possessing the binding quality of an infallible doctrine, although not necessarily proclaimed ex cathedra. That is, they aren’t promulgated by the pope himself but by the larger magisterium of the church. The lineup of “irreformable” teachings—ones divinely revealed—include those regarding Jesus, Mary, sin and grace, the sacraments, the primacy of the pope, and the doctrinal formulations of the ancient creeds.

The lineup of “definitive” teachings on faith and morals—ones the church holds to be logically derived from divine revelation—include teachings such as the doctrine of papal infallibility, the immorality of abortion and euthanasia, the communion of saints, and others. Assent of “intellect and will” to both categories of teachings are required for full communion with the Catholic Church.
So, now we don’t even need the Pope declaring something (much less declaring it ex cathedra) if it just falls in some category that Pope Benedict defined while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger?
And if these are essential for someone to be in communion with the Church, why are we not all being made to recite the whole list of teachings and say “We believe” in them like we do with the Profession of Faith?

It seems to me this is a very broad expansion of infallibility, and it was drafted and signed by someone other than a Pope. Although Cardinal Ratzinger did become a Pope later, but he wasn’t when he wrote and signed this.
 
That’s fine, but I don’t think climate change is an issue on which the Pope would ever claim to be infallible, as it’s got too many scientific overtones.
But that’s the thing. Popes don’t give that sort of indication or make the claim. He is teaching us how to be and respond to the world as a real Christian. There is no reason not to submit to that teaching as if it is just his opinion. They are teachings to be accepted and that is the end of the story as far as my faith is concerned.
 
I’m not following what the reason is.
As I understand it, the difference is that in the two Marian dogmas the popes were defining those doctrines de fide and changing their status to be infallible, when they were not previous to the promulgation (theologians could have taught differently without heterodoxy prior to their declaration). Pope John Paul II was removing all doubt about the dogmatic theology of Holy Orders, and not dogmatically defining it. It was infallible according to the teaching of the church both before and after his statement.

Doctrines are on a kind of ladder of certainty. There are many rungs, from barely acceptable opinions to a dogmatic definition of faith as divinely revealed (de fide). There are also infallible teachings of the church (fides ecclesiastica) that have no explicit dogmatic definition but are held to be dogma from tradition and the ordinary magisterium. I did a Google search and found the text for the March 24, 1993 general audience [through Wikipedia] by JP2 that describes these infallible church teachings. It’s archived in English: The Holy Spirit Assists the Roman Pontiff The infallible teaching on Holy Orders would be in this second category of dogma.
 
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This limited view is relatively novel. At the First Vatican Council, when some bishops wanted to condition papal infallibility on the Pope following some procedure or using some verbal formula, the relator for the Commissio de fide (charged with providing official doctrinal explanations of Council documents to the Council Fathers) said this was impossible, because there were already so many instances with various procedures or even none at all:
But, most eminent and reverend fathers, this proposal simply cannot be accepted because we are not dealing with something new here. Already thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have gone forth from the Apostolic See; where is the law which prescribed the form to be observed in such judgments?

“Thousands and thousands” might be a bit hyperbolic, but the point remains–it has been more than two! I assume where a document contains a long list of definitively judged propositions, each one is considered a single judgment (e.g. e.g. Coelestis Pastor of Bl. Innocent XI, Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus of St. Pius V, Unigenitus of Clement VI, etc.). Also included would be definitive judgments the Pope makes in his own name in the context of a partial or even ecumenical synod.

The First Vatican Council itself notes the variety of ways such definitions have come about:
The Roman pontiffs, too, as the circumstances of the time or the state of affairs suggested, sometimes by summoning ecumenical councils or consulting the opinion of the Churches scattered throughout the world, sometimes by special synods, sometimes by taking advantage of other useful means afforded by divine providence, defined as doctrines to be held those things which, by God’s help, they knew to be in keeping with Sacred Scripture and the apostolic traditions.
Unfortunately, likely due to a false irenicism (condemned by Vatican II), the dogma of papal infallibility has been unduly minimized. The unusual ceremonial attached to the two famous instances involving Marian dogmas (and their unusual circumstances, where rather than settling a controversy, they were a kind of capstone on a settled point) have also minimized the other instances. The fact is, Popes have intervened to provide definitive/irreformable judgments binding the whole Church many, many, many times.

This dogma is best thought of in its relation to the indefectibility of the whole Church, the indefectibility of the Church of Rome in particular (a consequence of the primacy being fixed there) and the Bishop of Rome’s relationship to each. He is infallible where, if he were to err, profession of such an error would become a necessary condition for the whole Church to have full communion with the Apostolic See.

It should also be noted, the infallibility of the Church (and Pope) is not limited to dogma (truths to be believed with divine faith), but also those necessarily connected truths “to be definitively held” (which is why Vatican I used “held” specifically).
 
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So what’s up with people claiming all kinds of other things are infallible statements of a Pope, when they apparently aren’t? Unless another event of infallibility has happened since 2011 that I missed?
The Extraordinary Magisterium exercises solemn definitions from a pope or an ecumenical council. The dogma of ex cathedra was defined formally in 1870. Read a comment from Jimmy Akin:
Papal infallibility has been exercised far more than two times. In fact, it had been used many times prior to 1870, when it was defined by the First Vatican Council. This was the clear understanding of the council, as shown–for example–by reading the later Archbishop Gasser’s relatio to the council fathers. This was a briefing given to the bishops at Vatican I to ensure a common understanding of the proposals regarding papal infallibility they were voting on. It is reprinted in the excellent book The Gift of Infallibility (which is the best book on the subject), and in the course of the relatio , Gasser alludes to the numerous times papal infallibility had been used before the Council.

Papal infallibility continues to be widely used. In fact, the current pontiff has used it more than any of his predecessors. The reason is that papal canonizations of saints are infallible. …
http://jimmyakin.com/2004/06/two_instances_o.html
 
As someone said earlier in the thread, there is a debate about this, including debate over whether the canonization of saints is infallible, and particularly concerning the post-1870 stuff, so Jimmy Akin does not seem to lay the issue to rest in this case.

Apart from the two Marian dogmas, it really seems like infallibility post-1870 means whatever the person claiming it applies wants it to mean. Time will tell I guess.
 
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As someone said earlier in the thread, there is a debate about this, including debate over whether the canonization of saints is infallible, and particularly concerning the post-1870 stuff, so Jimmy Akin does not seem to lay the issue to rest in this case.

Apart from the two Marian dogmas, it really seems like infallibility post-1870 means whatever the person claiming it applies wants it to me. Time will tell I guess.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott has a good summary of dogmas of faith, with sources from the Councils. Also the Catholic Church uses in the Catechism Enchiridion symbolorum of Denzinger-Schönmetzer.

An older version of Enchiridion symbolorum is here: Denzinger - English translation, older numbering

Catechism
828 By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.303 "The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church’s history."304 Indeed, "holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal."305

303 Cf. LG 40; 48-51.
304 John Paul II, CL 16,3.
305 CL 17, 3.
LG = Lumen gentium
CL
= Christifideles laici
 
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Most doctrines are “defined” only when there is a need, due to challenge or confusion. This includes papal infallibility, in use long before 1870.

Papal infallibility is related to the Magisterium as a whole. There is the Extraordinary and Ordinary Magisterium. The modern error is to omit the ordinary magisterium, in a " “what’s the bare minimum I have to believe?” sense.

Arguably the most commonly accepted, (by Catholics and almost all Protestants), infallible definition would be the canon of the New Testament.
 
The New Testament is not a pronouncement of a Pope or Magisterium, except for the part written by Peter.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t believe in it, but we don’t need an infallibility doctrine for it.
 
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