Papal Infallibility

[christmary4ever]

What are the boundaries of Papal Infallibility?

If Faith and morals cover every aspect of human life
then is it right to Belive that Infallibility has no
known limit?

Does Pronouncement of Excommunication an
infallible act?

 

[LilyM]

What are the boundaries of Papal Infallibility?

If Faith and morals cover every aspect of human life
then is it right to Belive that Infallibility has no
known limit?

Does Pronouncement of Excommunication an
infallible act?

Fath and Morals certainly don’t cover ‘every aspect of human life’.

The Pope, in telling us which football team he supports, his favourite breakfast, or what a great guy his brother was, is NOT discussing a matter of faith and morals, clearly. So he cannot pronounce infallibly on those matters.

Neither is he usually discussing faith and morals when he instructs on what are called disciplinary matters - things like priests being married, or some of the arrangements about the form of the Mass. For example that the priest should face the congregation (in the ordinary form of mass) or liturgical east (in the extraordinary form) or that he can used vernacular language (ordinary form) or must use Latin (extraordinary form).

Besides which, infallibility has other limits. An infallible pronouncement must be intended to apply permanently, which is one reason why many disciplines regarding the form of the Mass wouldn’t be infallible pronouncments either - it can be and is regularly changed in large or small ways.

As for excommunications - depends. You know St Joan of Arc died excommunicate and yet is still a saint? Mind you she was excommunicated by a corrupt politically-motivated Bishop. So hers certainly wasn’t infallible.

On the other hand if the Pope personally pronounced an excommunication, since Papal infallibility is somewhat different to the infallibility church leaders generally enjoy, it could fall in the definition of Papal infallibility.

 

[Ron_Conte]

No, a sentence of excommunication from the Pope does not fall under papal infallibility. Vatican I infallibly taught that papal infallibility only applies under certain conditions:

1. “the Roman Pontiff”
2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….”)
3. “he defines”
4. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
5. “must be held by the whole Church”
   Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4.

An excommunication is not a definition, nor is it a doctrine of faith or morals. Excommunications are a judgment of the prudential order, which fall under the fallible temporal authority of the Church.

 

[Ignatius]

Does Pronouncement of Excommunication an infallible act?

Well, if the pope declared someone excommunicated, that would make them excommunicated. It’s kind of like if the state department declared someone persona non Grata, then that makes them persona non Grata.
I don’t think the concept of infallibility enters into it.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Infallibility only applies to teachings.

 

[christmary4ever]

Infallibility only applies to teachings.

a Person I Know left the seminary due to condemnation of
Liberation Theology. Because of this He now believes that Infallibility is not true. What is the main thing about this
so called Liberation Theology?

 

[Seraphim25]

If one is excommunicated out of the church it doesn’t mean it isn’t saved. For God says NONE can pluck my children out of my hand. Even if the pope deems somebody to be excommunicated God is still the final judge NOT the Pope. Infallible I think is flawed because anybody can make an Infallible statement.

For example God says you must love me with all your heart soul and mind. IF I say that to someone that statement is infallible.

Even you must love your neighbor as yourself is infallible. All other things can flow under love your neighbor. are you showing the love to your neighbor if you murder? if you have an abortion? greedy? lusting after women/men? euthanasia? no of course not so by these statements are all infalible because all these meet the love your neighbhor as yourself. The pope’s main focus is to lead and to keep Gods people into one fold. That is it. God is the judge NOT the pope. Therefore even the pope himself will be judged to his life here on Earth.

Just as the famous argument that Peter had with Paul about who to go to with the gospel. Peter only wanted the apostles to go to the Jews and Paul said No way this is for all. God died for all so that all shall have life. Peter could have said NOPE for what comes out of my mouth comes out of Gods and so therefore we are all going to go to the Jews and that’s final. No course not for we all need each other even the Pope needs the rest of the members of the body,

A lot of the way of life in the middle ages were all about control and power. Which I know the church isn’t like that anymore but come on back then you HAD to believe that the Earth was in the center of the universe for crying out loud. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that is not correct. Moreover, it is a very ARROGANT thing to say not even King David said this but said "how vast is the work of your hands and unmeasurable are your ways. For as I look up into the heavens I see how insignificant we are and yet you have crowned us with glory and honor! So clearly that is just plain ignorant and egotistical. Not saying that was an “infallible teaching” but a teaching none the less.

 

[mardukm]

Liberation theology

1. Places more focus on the material kingdom of God than the spiritual, future promised kindgom.
2. Has an “ends justify the means” undercurrent of thought that does not mind using violence.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Ron_Conte]

a Person I Know left the seminary due to condemnation of
Liberation Theology. Because of this He now believes that Infallibility is not true. What is the main thing about this
so called Liberation Theology?

Liberation theology is not condemned by the Magisterium. Some particular expressions of liberation theology have been condemned. The Magisterium cannot condemn anything other than ideas that contradict teachings of faith and morals. The term liberation theology means different things to different people, and may well have expressions that are entirely faithful to Church teaching. For example, one could write a book of theology that focuses on the message of the Gospel to the poor and how it sets them free spiritually, and also calls society to free the poor from various types of oppression that are contrary to the Gospel. Such an approach would not be condemned. It is only when this approach is exaggerated, so that the needs of the poor determine doctrine, or so that the worldly needs of the poor take precidence over their spiritual needs, that the approach goes astray.

I don’t know of any use of infallibility to condemn any aspect or example of liberation theology.

 

[jcrichton]

If one is excommunicated out of the church it doesn’t mean it isn’t saved. For God says NONE can pluck my children out of my hand. Even if the pope deems somebody to be excommunicated God is still the final judge NOT the Pope. Infallible I think is flawed because anybody can make an Infallible statement.

I think that you are confusing the issue… excommunication means to remove a person/community from the Church; I’ve not heard of a Pope pronouncing damnation on anyone excommunicated; even with the issue of Judas–can you quote a Pope that has determined that he knows that Judas is in Hell?

For example God says you must love me with all your heart soul and mind. IF I say that to someone that statement is infallible.

…while the statement is infallible, you making the pronouncement does not fall under Papal infallibility because you are not the head of the Church.

Even you must love your neighbor as yourself is infallible. All other things can flow under love your neighbor. are you showing the love to your neighbor if you murder? if you have an abortion? greedy? lusting after women/men? euthanasia? no of course not so by these statements are all infalible because all these meet the love your neighbhor as yourself.

…you’ve lost me… what point are you attempting to make?

The pope’s main focus is to lead and to keep Gods people into one fold. That is it. God is the judge NOT the pope. Therefore even the pope himself will be judged to his life here on Earth.

I don’t follow… which Pope claimed to be the Judge of mankind?

Just as the famous argument that Peter had with Paul about who to go to with the gospel. Peter only wanted the apostles to go to the Jews and Paul said No way this is for all. God died for all so that all shall have life. Peter could have said NOPE for what comes out of my mouth comes out of Gods and so therefore we are all going to go to the Jews and that’s final. No course not for we all need each other even the Pope needs the rest of the members of the body,

…huh? …are you sure you are reading this in the Bible? Which passage tells us that Peter refused to preach to the Gentiles?

A lot of the way of life in the middle ages were all about control and power. Which I know the church isn’t like that anymore but come on back then you HAD to believe that the Earth was in the center of the universe for crying out loud. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that is not correct.

You must be getting these facts from the rotten vine, aren’t you?

Here’s a little history lesson: the Church was made up of men (still is) errors arose (still do) political and financial interests held clerical offices (Priests, Bishops…); communication was way slow (no computers, no cell phones, no next day delivery…); blood has always been thicker than water (unless there’s something to gain by betrayal–of course, there have always been those who served God and not their families or lust for power and wealth); history (other than Church history) is controlled by secular entities (some which are hostile to the Church and Christ); anti-Catholic fervor continues to paint the Church in the worst possible light–even when the facts must be invented, circumvented or expunged.

Moreover, it is a very ARROGANT thing to say not even King David said this but said "how vast is the work of your hands and unmeasurable are your ways. For as I look up into the heavens I see how insignificant we are and yet you have crowned us with glory and honor! So clearly that is just plain ignorant and egotistical. Not saying that was an “infallible teaching” but a teaching none the less.

…other than “he said,” “she said” or “they said,” please quote the source (name of Pope, pronouncement, date) which demonstrates that the Church taught “this” or “that.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[christmary4ever]

If one is excommunicated out of the church it doesn’t mean it isn’t saved. For God says NONE can pluck my children out of my hand. Even if the pope deems somebody to be excommunicated God is still the final judge NOT the Pope. Infallible I think is flawed because anybody can make an Infallible statement.

For example God says you must love me with all your heart soul and mind. IF I say that to someone that statement is infallible.

Even you must love your neighbor as yourself is infallible. All other things can flow under love your neighbor. are you showing the love to your neighbor if you murder? if you have an abortion? greedy? lusting after women/men? euthanasia? no of course not so by these statements are all infalible because all these meet the love your neighbhor as yourself. The pope’s main focus is to lead and to keep Gods people into one fold. That is it. God is the judge NOT the pope. Therefore even the pope himself will be judged to his life here on Earth.

Just as the famous argument that Peter had with Paul about who to go to with the gospel. Peter only wanted the apostles to go to the Jews and Paul said No way this is for all. God died for all so that all shall have life. Peter could have said NOPE for what comes out of my mouth comes out of Gods and so therefore we are all going to go to the Jews and that’s final. No course not for we all need each other even the Pope needs the rest of the members of the body,

A lot of the way of life in the middle ages were all about control and power. Which I know the church isn’t like that anymore but come on back then you HAD to believe that the Earth was in the center of the universe for crying out loud. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that is not correct. Moreover, it is a very ARROGANT thing to say not even King David said this but said "how vast is the work of your hands and unmeasurable are your ways. For as I look up into the heavens I see how insignificant we are and yet you have crowned us with glory and honor! So clearly that is just plain ignorant and egotistical. Not saying that was an “infallible teaching” but a teaching none the less.

Actually not even a genius can prove that the Earth is not the
center of the universe in the middle ages. Without powerful
telescopes it is impossible. Contrary to Protestant Propaganda
The church is not powerful during the early middle ages
(500-1000 A.D.). They are at the mercy of Barbarians and semi-
christian Kings in this period of Christian conversion.

It was the catholic church that preserve,teach and built upon
classical Greek and Roman civilization that brought about
our Western Civilization. The University system was one of
their greatest contribution.

 

[mardukm]

Just as the famous argument that Peter had with Paul about who to go to with the gospel. Peter only wanted the apostles to go to the Jews and Paul said No way this is for all. God died for all so that all shall have life.

You gotta be kidding! Was it not St. Peter who God singularly charged to reveal to the Church that the Gentiles should be let into the Church? Did not St. Peter himself declare at the local Council of Jerusalem that God wanted the Church to know this fact by HIS mouth?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Seraphim25]

You gotta be kidding! Was it not St. Peter who God singularly charged to reveal to the Church that the Gentiles should be let into the Church? Did not St. Peter himself declare at the local Council of Jerusalem that God wanted the Church to know this fact by HIS mouth?

Blessings,
Marduk

actually it is not, please re-read acts in the bible!

 

[Seraphim25]

Actually not even a genius can prove that the Earth is not the
center of the universe in the middle ages. Without powerful
telescopes it is impossible. Contrary to Protestant Propaganda
The church is not powerful during the early middle ages
(500-1000 A.D.). They are at the mercy of Barbarians and semi-
christian Kings in this period of Christian conversion.

It was the catholic church that preserve,teach and built upon
classical Greek and Roman civilization that brought about
our Western Civilization. The University system was one of
their greatest contribution.

Actually, I think you maybe mistaken, Pope John Paul the second declared that all the things that happened back then was a mistake against humanity and that he apologized for the things that the early church did. To deny that the chuch made errors is to deny history as you we know them. As I said earlier I am not bashing at the mistakes that the chuch made but I am bashing at the infallibility that ONLY the pope can make. The pope is NOT head of the church Jesus is. I do believe we need a leader to guide it through times such as we are in so that the faithful don’t leave the flock in droves. Which they are leaving the faith at alarming rates today but that was prophesied by Paul/timothy.

One of the major points I was making is that the ancients (may that be Maya, Babylonians,Persians, ect.) all knew that the earth was NOT flat but round. Also, That the Earth moved around and was not the center of the universe. In fact Scientists have found many findings that suggest very sophisticated astronomy in the middle east. I don’t have the time to quote everything on here but if you have the time research it and you will be amazed at what is out there!

the very fact that they thought that the Earth was in the center of the universe again is a very arrogant and self-centered thing to say.David knew that the earth was insignificant and that he didn’t necessarily understand why God would choose an insignificant place but only that God did and called us special.

How were they not powerful? Everything that the common folk did was centered at the church?? How did the church of England form if the church was not powerful. Granted that church was based on lust I am merely making a point. Everything was centered in and around the church up until the separation between church and state did the church loose its power.

 

[christmary4ever]

Actually, I think you maybe mistaken, Pope John Paul the second declared that all the things that happened back then was a mistake against humanity and that he apologized for the things that the early church did. To deny that the chuch made errors is to deny history as you we know them. As I said earlier I am not bashing at the mistakes that the chuch made but I am bashing at the infallibility that ONLY the pope can make. The pope is NOT head of the church Jesus is. I do believe we need a leader to guide it through times such as we are in so that the faithful don’t leave the flock in droves. Which they are leaving the faith at alarming rates today but that was prophesied by Paul/timothy.

One of the major points I was making is that the ancients (may that be Maya, Babylonians,Persians, ect.) all knew that the earth was NOT flat but round. Also, That the Earth moved around and was not the center of the universe. In fact Scientists have found many findings that suggest very sophisticated astronomy in the middle east. I don’t have the time to quote everything on here but if you have the time research it and you will be amazed at what is out there!

the very fact that they thought that the Earth was in the center of the universe again is a very arrogant and self-centered thing to say.David knew that the earth was insignificant and that he didn’t necessarily understand why God would choose an insignificant place but only that God did and called us special.

How were they not powerful? Everything that the common folk did was centered at the church?? How did the church of England form if the church was not powerful. Granted that church was based on lust I am merely making a point. Everything was centered in and around the church up until the separation between church and state did the church loose its power.

Let me answer your charges in Reverse. The
church of England was insignificant during the early 16th Century,Without Henry Viii self
serving patronage, It would never have taken off.
and you are really overboard when you say that
the church foundation is Lust.

No not everything centered on the Church during the middle ages (400 to 1000 A.d.) Kings and
Princes are busy fighting wars, for territories.
The common folk are under the control of their
Barbarian kings who are slowly being converted to
Christianity.

on the matter of John Paul II apology, His Holiness
apologize for only the abuse of authority that the
church commit , nothing more and nothing less.
at this point you completely misunderstood
Infallibility. Infallibility is not impeccability. it
does not teach that the Pope cannot commit a
sin or error in judgement,But rather The charism
that through the power of the HOLY SPIRIT HE
CANNOT TEACH ERRORS IN MATTERS OF
FAITH AND MORALS IF DECLARED SOLEMNLY.

Peter was a sinner yet He was infallible when he wrote his portion of the Scriptures so is Paul,James
and John. unless you Believe that Scripture is not
inspired. Of course catholics believe that Jesus is
the head of the church. That is why we take his
word seriously in MATT 16;18-19. ESTABLISHING
THE OFFICE OF THE POPE. You can also refer
to ISAIAH 22:21-22.

tHE CHURCH Preserve and taught Greek arts and
Sciences and translate them into Latin. The ancient
Greeks believe that the Earth is round (300 B.C.)
ERATHOTHENES EVEN MEASURED THE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE EARTH. and this knowledge was pass on to future generation by the
Catholic Church.

We do not deny history. What we expose is
bigotry sustantiated by malice and amazing
ignorance. By the way Protestants also believe
that the Earth was the center of the Universe in
the middle ages especially during reformation.
When Galileo declared that earth is not the center
of the Universe and want to publish it as a law, The
Church overreacted and Excommunicated him. This does not fall under the doctrine of infallibility.
It is a disciplinary matter. That is precisely why
JOHN PAUL 2 CAN OVERULE THIS JUDEMENT.

So Stop doing your research on Cable channels.

Now a lot of people are leaving the church (true)
we humans wants the easy way out. We use as
lame excuses the mistakes of our leaders as an
instrument to pardon ourselves for our sins.
As St. Francis de Sales declared, They are committing spiritual suicide and those Priests,Bishops etc are guilty of spiritual murder.
In both situations Everyone is accountable to God.

I dont knowe about you but I believe Christ when
he said that He had establish his church (CATHOLIC CHURCH) AND THE GATES OF HELL
WILL NOT PREVAIL UPON IT.

 

[Seraphim25]

Let me answer your charges in Reverse. The
church of England was insignificant during the early 16th Century,Without Henry Viii self
serving patronage, It would never have taken off.
and you are really overboard when you say that
the church foundation is Lust.

No not everything centered on the Church during the middle ages (400 to 1000 A.d.) Kings and
Princes are busy fighting wars, for territories.
The common folk are under the control of their
Barbarian kings who are slowly being converted to
Christianity.

on the matter of John Paul II apology, His Holiness
apologize for only the abuse of authority that the
church commit , nothing more and nothing less.
at this point you completely misunderstood
Infallibility. Infallibility is not impeccability. it
does not teach that the Pope cannot commit a
sin or error in judgement,But rather The charism
that through the power of the HOLY SPIRIT HE
CANNOT TEACH ERRORS IN MATTERS OF
FAITH AND MORALS IF DECLARED SOLEMNLY.

Peter was a sinner yet He was infallible when he wrote his portion of the Scriptures so is Paul,James
and John. unless you Believe that Scripture is not
inspired. Of course catholics believe that Jesus is
the head of the church. That is why we take his
word seriously in MATT 16;18-19. ESTABLISHING
THE OFFICE OF THE POPE. You can also refer
to ISAIAH 22:21-22.

tHE CHURCH Preserve and taught Greek arts and
Sciences and translate them into Latin. The ancient
Greeks believe that the Earth is round (300 B.C.)
ERATHOTHENES EVEN MEASURED THE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE EARTH. and this knowledge was pass on to future generation by the
Catholic Church.

We do not deny history. What we expose is
bigotry sustantiated by malice and amazing
ignorance. By the way Protestants also believe
that the Earth was the center of the Universe in
the middle ages especially during reformation.
When Galileo declared that earth is not the center
of the Universe and want to publish it as a law, The
Church overreacted and Excommunicated him. This does not fall under the doctrine of infallibility.
It is a disciplinary matter. That is precisely why
JOHN PAUL 2 CAN OVERULE THIS JUDEMENT.

So Stop doing your research on Cable channels.

Now a lot of people are leaving the church (true)
we humans wants the easy way out. We use as
lame excuses the mistakes of our leaders as an
instrument to pardon ourselves for our sins.
As St. Francis de Sales declared, They are committing spiritual suicide and those Priests,Bishops etc are guilty of spiritual murder.
In both situations Everyone is accountable to God.

I dont knowe about you but I believe Christ when
he said that He had establish his church (CATHOLIC CHURCH) AND THE GATES OF HELL
WILL NOT PREVAIL UPON IT.

For the church of England I think you misunderstood what I said. I said that the king broke away from the church to establish his own church out of lust for another women. The church wouldn’t get his marriage annulled and created his own church. However now we see the result in the split because there is another schism taking place from the gay pride movement in the hierarchy.

I do agree that God established one church but that church is everybody and not just the magistrate. I think that we all agree on that level but I just see so many people taking it to the next level and placing the magistrate and the pope to divinely status and that just isn’t true.For I do however, believe that that position has been established by God and for God. Just as all the presidents and so on are by God and for God. For God declared through his Son Jesus that all who believe on him we are now called sons/daughters through adaption in Christ. There isn’t 1 person who is better or worse than anybody. Even though a lot of us say well I didn’t murder anybody or I don’t commit adultery. We all fall short to Gods glory but by grace we have been given a free gift if we choose to and to choose to live it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I just don’t think that ONLY the pope is infallible. Like I said before if it comes out of Gods mouth he wants us to preach it faithfully and trustworthy for to him it is pleasing! We all can say infallible things as long as God himself has said them. Just in the example I had used by preaching that Jesus is Lord and Son of God and our redeemer that is infallible because that is the fundamental belief that God himself established/accomplished. The Holy Spirit works through ALL men/women and NOT just 1 person alone. I know you will agree For we ALL need every member in the body!! But again I just feel that a lot of people rely very heavily at what the pope has to say only. We need to speak to God as our father and best friend. Some folks have to know where the church is at every stance and then they make thier decision based on what the church says and it just blows me away sometimes. IT is like jeeze we have our own intellect and we can think and determine things without somebody else saying this is so or that is so.

I don’t get my education from a cereal box! I base my ideology off of what I see and read. I try not to be biased at all when I conclude my final ideas and opinions.From what I have seen and read/heard is where I get a lot of my own opinions.

Lastly, I don’t want anybody to think that I hate Catholicism. Being Catholic myself I love the church and I enjoy sharing my faith and Christianity to others for the sake of the Lords name! I recognize that I believe where I am at is the church that God established I just to subscribe to everything that the Vatican has to say but when it comes to morality and the liking I have never heard something that contradicts the christian faith.

 

[christmary4ever]

For the church of England I think you misunderstood what I said. I said that the king broke away from the church to establish his own church out of lust for another women. The church wouldn’t get his marriage annulled and created his own church. However now we see the result in the split because there is another schism taking place from the gay pride movement in the hierarchy.

I do agree that God established one church but that church is everybody and not just the magistrate. I think that we all agree on that level but I just see so many people taking it to the next level and placing the magistrate and the pope to divinely status and that just isn’t true.For I do however, believe that that position has been established by God and for God. Just as all the presidents and so on are by God and for God. For God declared through his Son Jesus that all who believe on him we are now called sons/daughters through adaption in Christ. There isn’t 1 person who is better or worse than anybody. Even though a lot of us say well I didn’t murder anybody or I don’t commit adultery. We all fall short to Gods glory but by grace we have been given a free gift if we choose to and to choose to live it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I just don’t think that ONLY the pope is infallible. Like I said before if it comes out of Gods mouth he wants us to preach it faithfully and trustworthy for to him it is pleasing! We all can say infallible things as long as God himself has said them. Just in the example I had used by preaching that Jesus is Lord and Son of God and our redeemer that is infallible because that is the fundamental belief that God himself established/accomplished. The Holy Spirit works through ALL men/women and NOT just 1 person alone. I know you will agree For we ALL need every member in the body!! But again I just feel that a lot of people rely very heavily at what the pope has to say only. We need to speak to God as our father and best friend. Some folks have to know where the church is at every stance and then they make thier decision based on what the church says and it just blows me away sometimes. IT is like jeeze we have our own intellect and we can think and determine things without somebody else saying this is so or that is so.

I don’t get my education from a cereal box! I base my ideology off of what I see and read. I try not to be biased at all when I conclude my final ideas and opinions.From what I have seen and read/heard is where I get a lot of my own opinions.

Lastly, I don’t want anybody to think that I hate Catholicism. Being Catholic myself I love the church and I enjoy sharing my faith and Christianity to others for the sake of the Lords name! I recognize that I believe where I am at is the church that God established I just to subscribe to everything that the Vatican has to say but when it comes to morality and the liking I have never heard something that contradicts the christian faith.

henry viii did not found the Anglican Church. It
was already existing before his time, But He just
proclaim it the State Religion. The catholic faith
was outlawed and the clergy was ordered to Swear
that Henry viii is the head of church, Refusal or
defiance is considered treason,and hundreds of
Clergy and their followers lost their lives.

Of course we all belong to the church. We are the
body and Christ is the head. But each part has its own function. The Pope being the Visible head
does not make him superior to anyone else.
Infallability is a gift that prevents him from
teaching error. It is not inspiration like what the Bible writers experienced. The Pope has to Pray
and study hard to teach a Doctrine.

Naturally The Holy Spirit can talk to anyone and
inspire them,but this does not exclude the fact
that God place some people to have religious
authority over us. That is why there is APOSTOLIC
SUCCESSION. Failure to recognize the truth of
infallibility will easily lead to subjectivism and
relativism. Anyone can easily claim to be inspired,
and if challenge will simply adopt your Formula.
I AM GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND CANNOT BE WRONG. That is why we have
thousands of Protestant denominations.
No amount of sincerity can replace truth.

You are confusing infallibility with knowledge of some doctrinal truth. Even with a trmendous
amount of knowledge Someone can still teach
an error in faith and morals because He does
not possess the gift of infallibility. Infallibility has
nothing to do with knowledge or wisdom,but rather
through the Grace of The Holy Spirit A pope even
if he wants to cannot teach error in EX CATHEDRA
TEACHINGS.

a TRUE catholic follows his church teachings.
our intellect and will are meant to serve the church
the body of Christ. We cannot pick and choose
as our darkened intellect dictates.
People who use their intellect outside the influence
of Catholic teachings will most likely leave the
church and go to another one that verifies or confirms his belief. and if that church change its position, such person will leave again and on and on.

 

[Seraphim25]

henry viii did not found the Anglican Church. It
was already existing before his time, But He just
proclaim it the State Religion. The catholic faith
was outlawed and the clergy was ordered to Swear
that Henry viii is the head of church, Refusal or
defiance is considered treason,and hundreds of
Clergy and their followers lost their lives.

Of course we all belong to the church. We are the
body and Christ is the head. But each part has its own function. The Pope being the Visible head
does not make him superior to anyone else.
Infallability is a gift that prevents him from
teaching error. It is not inspiration like what the Bible writers experienced. The Pope has to Pray
and study hard to teach a Doctrine.

Naturally The Holy Spirit can talk to anyone and
inspire them,but this does not exclude the fact
that God place some people to have religious
authority over us. That is why there is APOSTOLIC
SUCCESSION. Failure to recognize the truth of
infallibility will easily lead to subjectivism and
relativism. Anyone can easily claim to be inspired,
and if challenge will simply adopt your Formula.
I AM GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND CANNOT BE WRONG. That is why we have
thousands of Protestant denominations.
No amount of sincerity can replace truth.

You are confusing infallibility with knowledge of some doctrinal truth. Even with a trmendous
amount of knowledge Someone can still teach
an error in faith and morals because He does
not possess the gift of infallibility. Infallibility has
nothing to do with knowledge or wisdom,but rather
through the Grace of The Holy Spirit A pope even
if he wants to cannot teach error in EX CATHEDRA
TEACHINGS.

a TRUE catholic follows his church teachings.
our intellect and will are meant to serve the church
the body of Christ. We cannot pick and choose
as our darkened intellect dictates.
People who use their intellect outside the influence
of Catholic teachings will most likely leave the
church and go to another one that verifies or confirms his belief. and if that church change its position, such person will leave again and on and on.

No, I am sorry but I just can not accept that a TRUE Catholic has to subsrcibe to EVERY thing it says. Not even Methodists subscribe to the all the teachings that they teach. Nowadays it is comfortability is the reason why many go here and there. Agian, wisdom and knowledge do go hand and hand and as we see in the OT it can be the very source that can lead to misguiding. For example you had a few sects of Judaism. The most prevalent back then was the Pharases and the Sadducee. Both of them Jewish but divided greatly about spiritual things. One side believed in Angels and the liking but the other did not. IS the mere fact that believing or not believing going to condemn a person if they choose the latter?

Just because somebody doesn’t believe in a certian thing doesn’t mean that they will go here to there and back again. The only thing that matters is where is your relationship with God and not where your belief is what a certian church doctrine you confess. Many folks have a great distrust in the church! it maybe due to misguided information or lack thereof but mistrust nonetheless.
A lot of protestants denominations actually hold Martin Luther in great esteem because he stood up to certian practices/doctrines in his days. One of them was purchasing souls out of purgatory or time out of there if you were to put more money in the basket. this is just but a few of the errors that the church faced back then. Where they exaggerated or misinterpreted that is for the birds, it is what it is and we all can think what we want to think but he stood up all the same. Did ge need to leave the catholic faith for it? No, I don’t think so but he felt that the church was going in the very wrong direction and thus left because of what was going on. Therefore, I think it is foolish to just go around and believe this or that and just because the Vatican says this or that. God doesn’t even want you to believe this way. This is called brainwashing/mind control. God wants you to test all things out of love and devotion to God so that you will KNOW it is from God.

Tentatively, God wants us to think and use reason. A TRUE christian does the will of the father. What is the will of the father? To love your neighbor as yourself and God with all your heart, mind, and soul! So as long as you remain in Gods love then you have nothing to fear for NOTHING can pluck his children out of his hands.

 

[christmary4ever]

No, I am sorry but I just can not accept that a TRUE Catholic has to subsrcibe to EVERY thing it says. Not even Methodists subscribe to the all the teachings that they teach. Nowadays it is comfortability is the reason why many go here and there. Agian, wisdom and knowledge do go hand and hand and as we see in the OT it can be the very source that can lead to misguiding. For example you had a few sects of Judaism. The most prevalent back then was the Pharases and the Sadducee. Both of them Jewish but divided greatly about spiritual things. One side believed in Angels and the liking but the other did not. IS the mere fact that believing or not believing going to condemn a person if they choose the latter?

Just because somebody doesn’t believe in a certian thing doesn’t mean that they will go here to there and back again. The only thing that matters is where is your relationship with God and not where your belief is what a certian church doctrine you confess. Many folks have a great distrust in the church! it maybe due to misguided information or lack thereof but mistrust nonetheless.
A lot of protestants denominations actually hold Martin Luther in great esteem because he stood up to certian practices/doctrines in his days. One of them was purchasing souls out of purgatory or time out of there if you were to put more money in the basket. this is just but a few of the errors that the church faced back then. Where they exaggerated or misinterpreted that is for the birds, it is what it is and we all can think what we want to think but he stood up all the same. Did ge need to leave the catholic faith for it? No, I don’t think so but he felt that the church was going in the very wrong direction and thus left because of what was going on. Therefore, I think it is foolish to just go around and believe this or that and just because the Vatican says this or that. God doesn’t even want you to believe this way. This is called brainwashing/mind control. God wants you to test all things out of love and devotion to God so that you will KNOW it is from God.

Tentatively, God wants us to think and use reason. A TRUE christian does the will of the father. What is the will of the father? To love your neighbor as yourself and God with all your heart, mind, and soul! So as long as you remain in Gods love then you have nothing to fear for NOTHING can pluck his children out of his hands.

You are right we do not have to believe every thing
the Vatican says. As I said only solemn infallible
teaching like (abortion,contraception,euthanasia etc.even private theological opinion is out.
That is precisely my point.

Can you remain in God’s Love w/o following
the church authority that christ has established.?

consider Luke 10:16 and Matt 16:18 and matt !8:18

Furnish me with the Scriptures that say so.

Does the personal abuses of the clergy during Luthers time shows that infallibility is false?

If you answer yes then define infallibility as taught
by the church not your own opinion.

If you are in GODS HAND DO YOU LOSE YOUR
free will to walk away from him yes or no?

In Matthew 23 did Christ told the people to abandon
all the teachings of the Pharisees because they
are a group of hipocrites? yes or no.

Can you have a good relationship with God regardless of your belief? yes or no

If yes then we can believe that stealing is right
and still be on his good side.

if no then our belief determines the quality
of our relationship with him.

Can you disregard the church doctrine about
abortion and still Please God because you
are using your God given intellect?

Why would a catholic like you follow a methodist
standard whether to accept all teachings or not?

Are we guilty of blind obedience because we BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE AS TAUGHT
BY THE CHURCH.? dO YOU THINK THIS IS JUST
MIND CONTROL TACTICS BY THE CHURCH ?

Do we have to test every dogmas (incarnation,trinity etc. out of love and trust to the
Lord.?

is it possible for the church to have the fullness of
truth and be wrong in fundamental infallible
doctrines?

and finally does wisdom and knowledge really
the culprit for divisions in religion?

Why even be catholic if you believe that the church
is no better than other denominations? What makes
the catholic church special?

 

[Seraphim25]

You are right we do not have to believe every thing
the Vatican says. As I said only solemn infallible
teaching like (abortion,contraception,euthanasia etc.even private theological opinion is out.
That is precisely my point.

Can you remain in God’s Love w/o following
the church authority that christ has established.?

consider Luke 10:16 and Matt 16:18 and matt !8:18

Furnish me with the Scriptures that say so.

Does the personal abuses of the clergy during Luthers time shows that infallibility is false?

If you answer yes then define infallibility as taught
by the church not your own opinion.

If you are in GODS HAND DO YOU LOSE YOUR
free will to walk away from him yes or no?

In Matthew 23 did Christ told the people to abandon
all the teachings of the Pharisees because they
are a group of hipocrites? yes or no.

Can you have a good relationship with God regardless of your belief? yes or no

If yes then we can believe that stealing is right
and still be on his good side.

if no then our belief determines the quality
of our relationship with him.

Can you disregard the church doctrine about
abortion and still Please God because you
are using your God given intellect?

Why would a catholic like you follow a methodist
standard whether to accept all teachings or not?

Are we guilty of blind obedience because we BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE AS TAUGHT
BY THE CHURCH.? dO YOU THINK THIS IS JUST
MIND CONTROL TACTICS BY THE CHURCH ?

Do we have to test every dogmas (incarnation,trinity etc. out of love and trust to the
Lord.?

is it possible for the church to have the fullness of
truth and be wrong in fundamental infallible
doctrines?

and finally does wisdom and knowledge really
the culprit for divisions in religion?

Why even be catholic if you believe that the church
is no better than other denominations? What makes
the catholic church special?

Yes, because the church is based on GODS word and not the church. Therefore it is logical that doctrines/teachings could be man made and not of God. Consider the old testament laws and regulations that Judaism burdened the people. Jesus frequently attacked those laws. For behold you have kept my people away from me by your laws. It is in the gospels. Also, it is in one of the old testament stories of one of the prophets that went against 400 “prophets” and Jerusalem disobeyed God. Jesus also told the people to listen to the high priests but do not do what they do.

No, it shows that they are human and just like the high priests of Jesus’s time were arrogant and cared nothing for the people except of themselves.

No, If you were in Gods hand then you would remain in Gods hand. Just has Paul states about the false followers that they were once among us but are not anymore.Therefore, they must of have never been with us!

No, he was correcting them and attacking them because they failed to recognize him as the Messiah. Remember these people were very well versed in the Torah. They thought they knew God and just as Christ revealed to us they did not.

Ones belief needs to be centered on God the son. For God the father sent his son for us. Not because we did something for him but God loved us and yet we were sinners. If we truly understand God then we listen to what he says. If you say that stealing is correct then you truly do not understand nor know God. In your other example if I were to say no. our quality is nothing. For I am a sinner therefore it is by the quality that God has called me to be his Son. Not because of anything that I merited. For if I did something correct then their is a wage due. But if not then I owe what is due. Therefore Christ came to pay what I owed it is by grace and the will by the Holy Spirit to act it out!

I have said nothing of the Eucharist in this fashion. I do believe in transubstantiation!

How can I say abortion is legal if I say love thy neighbor? Babies are human and when abortion is committed it is murder.

I am not following a Methodist standard. I was making a point from one sect of Christianity to other. Which is; even Methodists don’t all believe in all what they teach. Just as in baptist, or Lutheran, or any other denomination.

Incarnation, trinity, are all found in the bible. Though the word “trinity” is not there but the innuendo is paramount. Jesus called himself the I AM several times in the NT that is why the Jewish scribes and people wanted to stone him for blasphemy. They knew quite well what I AM meant.

If the “infallible” doctrine contradicts scriputure then it could.

Yes, were great power comes great responsibility. If one has great wisdom and knowledge then you still have the possibility to use that knowledge against God. Arrogance and pride and easily creep in when you are well versed. Just as the scribes and kings of old did in the OT canon. Some churches split over whether it is right to say Holy Spirit over Holy Ghost. These schisms occur all the time.

I never said that the Catholic church was on par with other churches. I believe in my heart that God directed the true church to me. I agree with most of what the church confesses I feel that the church is on par with scripture.temple. Therefore, as long as we are in Gods love God remains in us!