Papal Infallibility

[christmary4ever]

christmary4ever;4607099:

You are right we do not have to believe every thing
the Vatican says. As I said only solemn infallible
teaching like (abortion,contraception,euthanasia etc.even private theological opinion is out.
That is precisely my point.

Can you remain in God’s Love w/o following
the church authority that christ has established.?

consider Luke 10:16 and Matt 16:18 and matt !8:18

Furnish me with the Scriptures that say so.

Does the personal abuses of the clergy during Luthers time shows that infallibility is false?

If you answer yes then define infallibility as taught
by the church not your own opinion.

If you are in GODS HAND DO YOU LOSE YOUR
free will to walk away from him yes or no?

In Matthew 23 did Christ told the people to abandon
all the teachings of the Pharisees because they
are a group of hipocrites? yes or no.

Can you have a good relationship with God regardless of your belief? yes or no

If yes then we can believe that stealing is right
and still be on his good side.

if no then our belief determines the quality
of our relationship with him.

Can you disregard the church doctrine about
abortion and still Please God because you
are using your God given intellect?

Why would a catholic like you follow a methodist
standard whether to accept all teachings or not?

Are we guilty of blind obedience because we BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE AS TAUGHT
BY THE CHURCH.? dO YOU THINK THIS IS JUST
MIND CONTROL TACTICS BY THE CHURCH ?

Do we have to test every dogmas (incarnation,trinity etc. out of love and trust to the
Lord.?

is it possible for the church to have the fullness of
truth and be wrong in fundamental infallible
doctrines?

and finally does wisdom and knowledge really
the culprit for divisions in religion?

Why even be catholic if you believe that the church
is no better than other denominations? What makes
the catholic church special?

Yes, because the church is based on GODS word and not the church. Therefore it is logical that doctrines/teachings could be man made and not of God. Consider the old testament laws and regulations that Judaism burdened the people. Jesus frequently attacked those laws. For behold you have kept my people away from me by your laws. It is in the gospels. Also, it is in one of the old testament stories of one of the prophets that went against 400 “prophets” and Jerusalem disobeyed God. Jesus also told the people to listen to the high priests but do not do what they do.

No, it shows that they are human and just like the high priests of Jesus’s time were arrogant and cared nothing for the people except of themselves.

No, If you were in Gods hand then you would remain in Gods hand. Just has Paul states about the false followers that they were once among us but are not anymore.Therefore, they must of have never been with us!

No, he was correcting them and attacking them because they failed to recognize him as the Messiah. Remember these people were very well versed in the Torah. They thought they knew God and just as Christ revealed to us they did not.

Ones belief needs to be centered on God the son. For God the father sent his son for us. Not because we did something for him but God loved us and yet we were sinners. If we truly understand God then we listen to what he says. If you say that stealing is correct then you truly do not understand nor know God. In your other example if I were to say no. our quality is nothing. For I am a sinner therefore it is by the quality that God has called me to be his Son. Not because of anything that I merited. For if I did something correct then their is a wage due. But if not then I owe what is due. Therefore Christ came to pay what I owed it is by grace and the will by the Holy Spirit to act it out!

I have said nothing of the Eucharist in this fashion. I do believe in transubstantiation!

How can I say abortion is legal if I say love thy neighbor? Babies are human and when abortion is committed it is murder.

I am not following a Methodist standard. I was making a point from one sect of Christianity to other. Which is; even Methodists don’t all believe in all what they teach. Just as in baptist, or Lutheran, or any other denomination.

Incarnation, trinity, are all found in the bible. Though the word “trinity” is not there but the innuendo is paramount. Jesus called himself the I AM several times in the NT that is why the Jewish scribes and people wanted to stone him for blasphemy. They knew quite well what I AM meant.

If the “infallible” doctrine contradicts scriputure then it could.

Yes, were great power comes great responsibility. If one has great wisdom and knowledge then you still have the possibility to use that knowledge against God. Arrogance and pride and easily creep in when you are well versed. Just as the scribes and kings of old did in the OT canon. Some churches split over whether it is right to say Holy Spirit over Holy Ghost. These schisms occur all the time.

I never said that the Catholic church was on par with other churches. I believe in my heart that God directed the true church to me. I agree with most of what the church confesses I feel that the church is on par with scripture.temple. Therefore, as long as we are in Gods love God remains in us!

Can you really remain in Gods love if you
disobey his commandment to follow the
church infallible teachings?

Did paul ever said that the false followers were never in Gods love so they were not able to keep
their faith? can u cite a scripture?

When Jesus said I AM IS THIS A PRIMA FACIE
EVIDENCE OF TRINITY?

How come the Mormons do not believe this passage? Is it Possible that they are not in
Gods hand because they do not agree with us?

 

[Seraphim25]

Seraphim25;4607643:

Can you really remain in Gods love if you
disobey his commandment to follow the
church infallible teachings?

Did paul ever said that the false followers were never in Gods love so they were not able to keep
their faith? can u cite a scripture?

When Jesus said I AM IS THIS A PRIMA FACIE
EVIDENCE OF TRINITY?

How come the Mormons do not believe this passage? Is it Possible that they are not in
Gods hand because they do not agree with us?

Tell me where that statement is found in the bible!! The only thing that Jesus tells us to obey is to obey is commandments. Like I said before you must love God with all your heart, soul and mind. And just like it you must love your neighbor as yourself. A believer is dependent on these two commandments.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Can a christian call himself a christian if the person clearly doesn’t want to follow Christ? Not, just in areas of struggle but just darn right refuses to obey is commandments. I think not! therefore if a person is NOT willing at ALL to obey is commandments then it is likely that the sin remains and the wrath of God is upon that person. Of course only God knows who they are we need not worry about that. But that is the message that Paul tells us That they were followers of Christ but are found no more because they were really never amongst us. Try looking in Corinthians I believe but if not Google it it is there!

Not soley but one of them. Jesus tells his disciples to be baptized in the name of the father the son and the Holy Spirit! Another one is the prayer of teh faithful. Father let them be as one as I am one with you. So that they maybe one in us. The glory you have given me I have know given to them. So that they maybe one as we are one! The father reveals who the Son is and teh Son the father. And with the father and the Son the Holy Spirit is revealed!!

Normans do recognize Jesus. However, they do NOT confess him Lord! They also do NOT confess him as a redeem or savior of the world. Though they claim to be christian, they are unfortunately not. In either Corinthians or Romans I think the latter, one MUST confess Jesus as Lord to have the spirit of God rest upon him. Just also, one must believe he came down from heaven died upon the cross in flesh (unlike agnostics believe) to take away the sins of the world. Therefore these are crucial elements that one must confess in the person heart and on his lips. Can a person love God and yet hate his brother?

 

[anon5216]

What are the boundaries of Papal Infallibility? …

There’s also the question of: the Bible is just assumed to be the “Word of God” - no one has ever proven that to be true in a manner believable to anyone who didn’t already want to believe that to be true.

Until that is really done, Infallibility is just speculation and/or a baseless claim, and the boundaries … well …

May God bless you (and your circle of family, friends and acquaintances) in His own way with ever transcending spiritual growth, far beyond anything you or I or any religious authority can imagine.

 

[jcrichton]

Tentatively, God wants us to think and use reason. A TRUE christian does the will of the father. What is the will of the father? To love your neighbor as yourself and God with all your heart, mind, and soul! So as long as you remain in Gods love then you have nothing to fear for NOTHING can pluck his children out of his hands.

Your problem is that you chose what passages of the Bible you will accept; this pick-at-whim theology is very liberating, but it is not Christ’s.

Christ did not say that the Will of the Father is that you “love your neighbor.” Christ said that if we Love Him we will Obey Him; the Will of the Father is that we Listen to Him (the Son); the Son tells us that we must abide in Him (believe and obey) so that He may abide in Us (give us Life).

When Jesus founded His Church He did not say “follow what is in your heart.” He expressly ordered that we bring our issues to the Church; He delegated His Authority to the Church as He gave her the power to bind or loosen–even to the point of excommunication!

“Catholics” who follow their own mind/heart are deluding themselves as they reject the Authority of Christ under the guise of following a fundamental/Biblical Christianity; this is verified by the more than 40,000 “Christian” denominations, the Jehovah Witnesses, and the Mormons: they all claim to be “true” Bible-based church of God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

There’s also the question of: the Bible is just assumed to be the “Word of God” - no one has ever proven that to be true in a manner believable to anyone who didn’t already want to believe that to be true.

Until that is really done, Infallibility is just speculation and/or a baseless claim, and the boundaries … well …

May God bless you (and your circle of family, friends and acquaintances) in His own way with ever transcending spiritual growth, far beyond anything you or I or any religious authority can imagine.

Are you Christian?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[anon5216]

Are you Christian?

Maran atha!

Angel

I was raised Catholic, but left.
Christianity didn’t meet my spiritual needs, so I ventured elsewhere.

Not that I believe Catholicism can’t meet the needs of a lot of people.
I have the greatest respect for Padre Pio (as an example of someone who obviously achieved great spiritual heights). And for those who aren’t born with the spiritual athlete potential of a Padre Pio, I’m sure it’s possible to get spiritual comfort via the Church as well.

 

[jcrichton]

I was raised Catholic, but left.
Christianity didn’t meet my spiritual needs, so I ventured elsewhere.

Not that I believe Catholicism can’t meet the needs of a lot of people.
I have the greatest respect for Padre Pio (as an example of someone who obviously achieved great spiritual heights). And for those who aren’t born with the spiritual athlete potential of a Padre Pio, I’m sure it’s possible to get spiritual comfort via the Church as well.

My query is satisfied.

I was born human not Catholic.

I was born a man not a Believer.

I was introduced to the Faith by my Mom.

I was convicted to the Faith by a self-confessed atheist.

I am in the Faith only by the Grace of God.

I cannot compel you to Believe.

I can only urge you to put your “self” aside and search the Sacred Scriptures for the Truth.

The Holy Spirit can bring you out of darkness.

You must be willing to submit your will to His.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Romulus]

Infallibility has
nothing to do with knowledge or wisdom,but rather
through the Grace of The Holy Spirit A pope even
if he wants to cannot teach error in EX CATHEDRA
TEACHINGS.

Say a Pope is bad…very very sinful…and there have been in the past…he’s human and has original sin like all of us. And for some reason, he wishes to go into EX CATHEDRA mode and make a false teaching because he’s just a bad person…

If the HOLY SPIRIT will not let him teach falsehood, then has GOD denied this bad Pope the free will to teach falsehood while in EX CATHEDRA mode??

Anyone have feedback on this scenario?

 

[LilyM]

Say a Pope is bad…very very sinful…and there have been in the past…he’s human and has original sin like all of us. And for some reason, he wishes to go into EX CATHEDRA mode and make a false teaching because he’s just a bad person…

If the HOLY SPIRIT will not let him teach falsehood, then has GOD denied this bad Pope the free will to teach falsehood while in EX CATHEDRA mode??

Anyone have feedback on this scenario?

Did God take away Jonah’s free will by bashing him around the head when he tried to do the wrong thing and run away? Did Jonah not of his own free will repent and proceed to do the right thing? No loss of free will involved, God just taught him a mighty strong lesson and persisted teaching until Jonah got the message!

What about poor old Balaam and his a** when Balaam similarly tried to thwart God’s will? Same. No loss of free will, just a supernatural slap upside the head much as my parents gave me in my youth when I was disobedient - and persisted giving until I learned my errors.

Likewise St Paul when He struck him blind.

One interesting real example from Catholic history - one of the Popes undertook, on his own, a translation of the Bible. All around him agreed it was not only poor translating, but some of the errors made the translation downright erroneous (not to say heretical).

The Pope nonetheless wanted to have his way and make his translation the official one used at Mass etc. A matter of days before this Pope was due to sign the decree bringing it all about - he upped and died. Crisis averted with no loss of free will involved.

Another example - a different Pope basically had the office bought for him by an Empress of Byzantium who was an Arian heretic and hoped to make Arianism official teaching. When he got his backside on that Papal throne he did a complete 180, roundly rebuked the Empress and remained faithful and orthodox. Again, no loss of free will required.

God truly works in mysterious ways.

 

[jcrichton]

Say a Pope is bad…very very sinful…and there have been in the past…he’s human and has original sin like all of us. And for some reason, he wishes to go into EX CATHEDRA mode and make a false teaching because he’s just a bad person…

If the HOLY SPIRIT will not let him teach falsehood, then has GOD denied this bad Pope the free will to teach falsehood while in EX CATHEDRA mode??

Anyone have feedback on this scenario?

I’m Dominican (small island near Cuba and Puerto Rico)… as a child I never experienced what was referred to as “montarse” or “montada/o.” This is (or was, have not been back for some years) a sort of spiritualistic ritual where a person (mostly a female) enters into some sort of trans where the spirit world is able to communicate through that person… Is it a real experience? Don’t know. What I do know is that the Pope does not go into a spiritual trek/trans… Here’s some info which might help you understand:

newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

…as far as free will is concerned, when we speak for God, even as a simple ambassador as a person inviting others to Mass or any of the parish’s activities, if we engage in falsehood it is not the Holy Spirit inspiring us to do so and when we purport to speak for God in any format where we teach others we must first surrender our will to God’s:

Because of that, I want to make it quite clear to you that no one who says ‘A curse on Jesus’ can be speaking in the Spirit of God, and nobody is able to say, ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3–NJB)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Romulus]

Because of that, I want to make it quite clear to you that no one who says ‘A curse on Jesus’ can be speaking in the Spirit of God, and nobody is able to say, ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3–NJB)

Maran atha!

Angel

So if a bad Pope wanted to make a “false teaching”…that is, disgrace or repel Jesus, he would obviously not be lead by the Spirit. But he has the free will to make a “false teaching”? No? If the Spirit would not allow a “false teaching”, would not the Spirit be denying the bad Pope’s free will??

 

[Romulus]

One interesting real example from Catholic history - one of the Popes undertook, on his own, a translation of the Bible. All around him agreed it was not only poor translating, but some of the errors made the translation downright erroneous (not to say heretical).

The Pope nonetheless wanted to have his way and make his translation the official one used at Mass etc. A matter of days before this Pope was due to sign the decree bringing it all about - he upped and died. Crisis averted with no loss of free will involved.

God truly works in mysterious ways.

I need to read up on this case. Which Pope? What was the cause of death??

 

[po18guy]

christmary4ever;4607099:

You are right we do not have to believe every thing
the Vatican says. As I said only solemn infallible
teaching like (abortion,contraception,euthanasia etc.even private theological opinion is out.
That is precisely my point.

Can you remain in God’s Love w/o following
the church authority that christ has established.?

consider Luke 10:16 and Matt 16:18 and matt !8:18

Furnish me with the Scriptures that say so.

Does the personal abuses of the clergy during Luthers time shows that infallibility is false?

If you answer yes then define infallibility as taught
by the church not your own opinion.

If you are in GODS HAND DO YOU LOSE YOUR
free will to walk away from him yes or no?

In Matthew 23 did Christ told the people to abandon
all the teachings of the Pharisees because they
are a group of hipocrites? yes or no.

Can you have a good relationship with God regardless of your belief? yes or no

If yes then we can believe that stealing is right
and still be on his good side.

if no then our belief determines the quality
of our relationship with him.

Can you disregard the church doctrine about
abortion and still Please God because you
are using your God given intellect?

Why would a catholic like you follow a methodist
standard whether to accept all teachings or not?

Are we guilty of blind obedience because we BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE AS TAUGHT
BY THE CHURCH.? dO YOU THINK THIS IS JUST
MIND CONTROL TACTICS BY THE CHURCH ?

Do we have to test every dogmas (incarnation,trinity etc. out of love and trust to the
Lord.?

is it possible for the church to have the fullness of
truth and be wrong in fundamental infallible
doctrines?

and finally does wisdom and knowledge really
the culprit for divisions in religion?

Why even be catholic if you believe that the church
is no better than other denominations? What makes
the catholic church special?

Yes, because the church is based on GODS word and not the church. Therefore it is logical that doctrines/teachings could be man made and not of God. Consider the old testament laws and regulations that Judaism burdened the people. Jesus frequently attacked those laws. For behold you have kept my people away from me by your laws. It is in the gospels. Also, it is in one of the old testament stories of one of the prophets that went against 400 “prophets” and Jerusalem disobeyed God. Jesus also told the people to listen to the high priests but do not do what they do.

No, it shows that they are human and just like the high priests of Jesus’s time were arrogant and cared nothing for the people except of themselves.

No, If you were in Gods hand then you would remain in Gods hand. Just has Paul states about the false followers that they were once among us but are not anymore.Therefore, they must of have never been with us!

No, he was correcting them and attacking them because they failed to recognize him as the Messiah. Remember these people were very well versed in the Torah. They thought they knew God and just as Christ revealed to us they did not.

Ones belief needs to be centered on God the son. For God the father sent his son for us. Not because we did something for him but God loved us and yet we were sinners. If we truly understand God then we listen to what he says. If you say that stealing is correct then you truly do not understand nor know God. In your other example if I were to say no. our quality is nothing. For I am a sinner therefore it is by the quality that God has called me to be his Son. Not because of anything that I merited. For if I did something correct then their is a wage due. But if not then I owe what is due. Therefore Christ came to pay what I owed it is by grace and the will by the Holy Spirit to act it out!

I have said nothing of the Eucharist in this fashion. I do believe in transubstantiation!

How can I say abortion is legal if I say love thy neighbor? Babies are human and when abortion is committed it is murder.

I am not following a Methodist standard. I was making a point from one sect of Christianity to other. Which is; even Methodists don’t all believe in all what they teach. Just as in baptist, or Lutheran, or any other denomination.

Incarnation, trinity, are all found in the bible. Though the word “trinity” is not there but the innuendo is paramount. Jesus called himself the I AM several times in the NT that is why the Jewish scribes and people wanted to stone him for blasphemy. They knew quite well what I AM meant.

If the “infallible” doctrine contradicts scriputure then it could.

Yes, were great power comes great responsibility. If one has great wisdom and knowledge then you still have the possibility to use that knowledge against God. Arrogance and pride and easily creep in when you are well versed. Just as the scribes and kings of old did in the OT canon. Some churches split over whether it is right to say Holy Spirit over Holy Ghost. These schisms occur all the time.

I never said that the Catholic church was on par with other churches. I believe in my heart that God directed the true church to me. I agree with most of what the church confesses I feel that the church is on par with scripture.temple. Therefore, as long as we are in Gods love God remains in us!

I am thankful that there is a 5,000 character limit on posts. Why not ask one issue at a time? Marathon posts lose their meaning and purpose and lead away from the intent of the OP.

 

[po18guy]

Say a Pope is bad…very very sinful…and there have been in the past…he’s human and has original sin like all of us. And for some reason, he wishes to go into EX CATHEDRA mode and make a false teaching because he’s just a bad person…

If the HOLY SPIRIT will not let him teach falsehood, then has GOD denied this bad Pope the free will to teach falsehood while in EX CATHEDRA mode??

Anyone have feedback on this scenario?

All I know is that all “what ifs” lead back to “what if there is no God?”. We must deal with what has actually happened, not with every doubt that is raised in our minds.

In such cases, free will is subjugated to, and obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It’s still there, but just placed under control in the service of truth.

If you will, obedience is a suppression of free will. It does not eliminate or deny free will, it acknowledges it and controls it.

 

[jcrichton]

So if a bad Pope wanted to make a “false teaching”…that is, disgrace or repel Jesus, he would obviously not be lead by the Spirit. But he has the free will to make a “false teaching”? No? If the Spirit would not allow a “false teaching”, would not the Spirit be denying the bad Pope’s free will??

Somehow we are missing each other… can people reject God or even create a cult that is anti-Christian? Yes!

Can a Christian rebel against God? Yes!

Are Catholics exempt from this fallacy? No!

Can the Pope err? Yes!

Can the Pope teach anti-Christian theology? No!

The Pope, assisted by the Bishops, maintains the theological teachings that comes to us through the succession of the Apostles.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I am thankful that there is a 5,000 character limit on posts. Why not ask one issue at a time? Marathon posts lose their meaning and purpose and lead away from the intent of the OP.

…I concur; there should be a way to remove posts that demonstrate that there’s no true interest in studying Scriptures or the Doctrines of the Church–these are easy to spot since the follow ups continue to bring forth the same queries… yet, I can understand how some would lose their composure and inundate the original posters with their own lists of queries… I have been guilty of this myself, from time to time!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Domini_servus]

An explanation of Papal Infallibility

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f002ht_BadPopesPCO.htm

 

[Romulus]

If you will, obedience is a suppression of free will. It does not eliminate or deny free will, it acknowledges it and controls it.

What do you mean by suppressed? Isn’t a person being obedient using his/her free will…it is not suppressed…like you said it does not eliminate.

 

[po18guy]

What do you mean by suppressed? Isn’t a person being obedient using his/her free will…it is not suppressed…like you said it does not eliminate.

It is the choosing of one over the other. Both still exist even though only one is chosen. Obedience is an exercise of free will, just as disobedience is.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Romulus]

Can the Pope teach anti-Christian theology? No!

I see that it is in some supernatural way…a mystery…like the trinity…eucharist…but isn’t not a controlling of the Pope’s free will if he did happen to want to teach something anti-christian??