Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

[MonFrere]

First of all, we are not referred to as the American Church, anymore than there is a Canadian Church, a Mexican Church or a French Church. We are the Church in America, as Pope Benedict has stated many times.

I understand the difference. We are all members of the one holy catholic apostolic church. I didn’t come across this subtle point in my reading so thank you for pointing it out. However, this doesn’t mitigate against there being difference between the churches in various nations and continents. I’m italian and I know that there are differences in how italians approach their catholic faith than the french (my wife is french) or the poles or the germans — or the africans or the indonesians. As I mentioned - our unity is in the CREED. There has historically been differences in the liturgy - the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The music was deplorable and not at all suitable for the Mass. It was as if the DC organizers could have cared less about what the Holy Father had written on the subject (including books and speeches) and went ahead with their own agenda.

OK - the Holy Father is now in full knowledge of the Church in America. If he doesn’t correct this deplorable state of affairs then he is remiss in his responsibility in being our shepherd.

What I think is deplorable is how readily and easily AND PUBLICALLY our bishops are criticized.

What is a grave chilling effect comes from the fact that OCP is hawking their songs as having the Benedictine seal of approval because they were used at the Papal Mass. That is clever, but shaemeful, marketing on their part. It’s bad anough that many of us have to contend with OCP on a weekly basis, but now to have them gleefully proclaim that their music is fet for a Papal Mass is pretty sad.

On this point I can come to some agreement with you. I think OCP and her sisters need the oversight of some constituted church authority. However – as in all ages the BEST OF THE BEST only comes to the fore through the seive of history. Contemporary music is by and large almost ALWAYS mediocre. That is not to say that everything that’s new is bad. And sometimes someone needs music to serve a function in the Mass. For example – the penetential rite during the weeks of Easter are often accomplished via a sprinkling rite. We use a song - I Saw Waters Flowing. It’s not great in any sense but it has a tune that the laity enjoys singing. With the Novus Ordo and the laity participation in the music there is an automatic need for the music to become accessible to the average person – this is even less than a modest choir in a small town in rural America. We’ve got some hard work to do, admitedly; but I don’t think choosing our favorite whipping boys is going to get us to a resolution.

MonFrere

 

[benedictgal]

What I think is deplorable is how readily and easily AND PUBLICALLY our bishops are criticized.
MonFrere

Actually, because the bishop is supposed to be the chief liturgical steward for his diocese, or, as in the case of the Metropolitan, his Archidocese, they bear a grave responsibility to ensure that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[22.] The Bishop governs the particular Church entrusted to him,47 and it is his task to regulate, to direct, to encourage, and sometimes also to reprove;48 this is a sacred task that he has received through episcopal Ordination,49 which he fulfills in order to build up his flock in truth and holiness.50 He should elucidate the inherent meaning of the rites and the liturgical texts, and nourish the spirit of the Liturgy in the Priests, Deacons and lay faithful51 so that they are all led to the active and fruitful celebration of the Eucharist,52 and in like manner he should take care to ensure that the whole body of the Church is able to grow in the same understanding, in the unity of charity, in the diocese, in the nation and in the world. 53

Certainly, if the Ordinary or the Metropolitan is not living up to his duties, criticism is justified. Remember, that is the right of every Catholic to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated in the manner prescribed by the Church.

 

[MonFrere]

The psalm was grossly mishandled. It is supposed to be responsorial and, it should be cantor/organ and faithful, not a full-blown musical number.

And as I said before. The homilist is supposed to center his attention to the readings of the day. Can you honestly say Pope Benedict did this? If we’re going to go around and play the liturgically correct game – then Pope Benedict himself is suspect. Can’t you see that there’s some flexibility that’s virtually mandatory in a Papal Mass.

Actually, if one was going to be an absolute purist one could make a strong case (as one poster did) that Placido Domingo’s singing was “entertainment” and drew attention to himself and distracted from the Holy Sacrifice.

MonFrere

 

[benedictgal]

And as I said before. The homilist is supposed to center his attention to the readings of the day. Can you honestly say Pope Benedict did this? If we’re going to go around and play the liturgically correct game – then Pope Benedict himself is suspect. Can’t you see that there’s some flexibility that’s virtually mandatory in a Papal Mass.

Actually, if one was going to be an absolute purist one could make a strong case (as one poster did) that Placido Domingo’s singing was “entertainment” and drew attention to himself and distracted from the Holy Sacrifice.

MonFrere

The readings for the Mass, which weren’t the readings for the Day because what was chosen was a Votive Mass for the Holy Spirit, were completeliy in line with the homily. In all of the Papal Mass broadcasts that I have seen sine Pope Benedict came to the Chair of St. Peter, not one of his homilies has ever departed from the readings. Therefore, that argument would not work at all. Re-read the text of what he said.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20080417_washington-stadium_en.html

He quoted extensively from the readings and tied them into the reason for his visit to our country.

 

[MonFrere]

The readings for the Mass, which weren’t the readings for the Day because what was chosen was a Votive Mass for the Holy Spirit, were completeliy in line with the homily. In all of the Papal Mass broadcasts that I have seen sine Pope Benedict came to the Chair of St. Peter, not one of his homilies has ever departed from the readings. Therefore, that argument would not work at all. Re-read the text of what he said.

You are indeed correct. I happily stand corrected on that point.

MonFrere

 

[MonFrere]

Certainly, if the Ordinary or the Metropolitan is not living up to his duties, criticism is justified. Remember, that is the right of every Catholic to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated in the manner prescribed by the Church.

Benedictgal,

Again, my point it to the public display of outright contempt that far too many of the faithful, in my opinion, are beginning to display.

To my prioritization - public criticism of a bishop is far more evident of being “of the world” than is a display of multiculturism at a Mass. I think until we know ALL the facts we cannot properly judge the situation. Things are not always what they seem on the surface. My approach is to always give our bishops the benefit of the doubt.

MonFrere

 

[aloysiusg]

As was stated previously in this thread (a LONG time ago) - the music chosen for the mass was approved by the Vatican, so it can’t have been considered all that wrong by them if they approved it.

 

[neat62]

Hello there neat62. Peace be with you. I am glad we have this conversation and I absolutely understand. I would like that very much too for all Catholic Church all around the world to use traditional Latin.

Just for info when I was back in my Country everything the same just like over here in term of the way of the procession, Homily etc. The only different is the language used.

All prayers such as Lord Prayer when to say it when to kneel down etc are all the same. This is only my opinion, by gestures and by recognizing the symbol like kneeling down etc I know what is going on though I do not understand the language but I know when to say the response in my own language, example prayer before receive the communion in my own language. I know when it is time to say it I recognize all the respectful gesture if you know what I mean I hope you understand what I am trying to say here so to me whether it is in Latin or not the main subject is still going to be focus on the Body of Christ. The order of prayers are all the same.

As for me by recognizing all the gestures and order of the whole celebration I am able to enjoy and unite with everybody though I do not understand the languages but I do know the prayers that they recite in my own native tongue. I totally block myself from thinking about myself what I am comfortable with so that really help me adapt to the Western Catholic Church. Believe me took me a while to memorized The Lord Prayer in English but I know how to say it now. I still need to work on the Creed. I know how to say it in my native language.

I have never been to full Latin Mass. I would love to experience that.

Hi peacelight,

Yes…the Latin Mass is incredibly beautiful and all Catholics should experience it at least once!

As for the gestures during Mass…unfortunately, we can’t even say today that ALL Masses do indeed share the same gestures…as sometimes you stand, sometimes you sit, sometimes you kneel during the Consecration…its different in each parish, not just in each Diocese, here in America!

Frankly, I find it shameful and all of it is done under the guise of “multi-culturalism”…to “appeal” to more…and yet the funny thing is, all we have done is turn many away, because the reverence most are seeking, no longer exists.

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

 

[Nordar]

Benedictgal,

Again, my point it to the public display of outright contempt that far too many of the faithful, in my opinion, are beginning to display.

Not liking the music and thinking it was horrible is a far cry from contempt! That’s just it, you have a very difficult time accepting that there are those who quite simply did not like the music.

Your opinion is not the only one that counts, you told me to go back and read what you said then I may change my mind. See it is the arrogance of that quote, why do you think because you think one way and explain why, that then I will change my mind?
I am not telling you that my way is right and you should think about what I said and perhaps you will change your mind.

I did not like the music and that’s it, I am quite sure that the ones who were singing in the choirs were doing it out of total reverence, and love for The Mass and The Holy Father. That however does not negate the fact that the music was a very poor choice for The Liturgy!

 

[Nordar]

Well said, Nordar. And no matter how long ago it actually took place - welcome to this country.

Thank you

 

[MonFrere]

As was stated previously in this thread (a LONG time ago) - the music chosen for the mass was approved by the Vatican, so it can’t have been considered all that wrong by them if they approved it.

Al,

I’m convinced that people only believe what they want to believe. If people are convinced that the music was bad nothing will convince them. Vatican approval won’t be enough because everyone knows that the Vatican is hanging on by a thread of being overtaken by “liberals”. It would certainly be one of these ephemeral liberals that approved the music.

It’s also a special game these people play that if the Pope himself states his opinion on a subject - people will say – well, remember that statement wasn’t spoken ex cathedra so we don’t have to follow that one.

Liberals and conservatives all play the same games. It’s frustrating - but if Jesus died for all I cannot wiggle out of the fact that I’m to love them all. I will honestly make my best efforts to work to liberals and conservatives – each bring their own set of difficulties.

MonFrere

 

[Nordar]

Al,

I’m convinced that people only believe what they want to believe. If people are convinced that the music was bad nothing will convince them. Vatican approval won’t be enough because everyone knows that the Vatican is hanging on by a thread of being overtaken by “liberals”. It would certainly be one of these ephemeral liberals that approved the music.

It’s also a special game these people play that if the Pope himself states his opinion on a subject - people will say – well, remember that statement wasn’t spoken ex cathedra so we don’t have to follow that one.

Liberals and conservatives all play the same games. It’s frustrating - but if Jesus died for all I cannot wiggle out of the fact that I’m to love them all. I will honestly make my best efforts to work to liberals and conservatives – each bring their own set of difficulties.

MonFrere

When I read this I just started to laugh, the word pompous comes to mind!

 

[MonFrere]

Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons

A) The above is a quote Benedictgal quoted from our present Pope.

B) Al stated that the Vatican approved the music for the D.C. Mass.

What some people do is to say that A doens’t match B – therefore B is wrong.

What I do is to read A and then look a B as a Vatican approved way of viewing A. If they don’t look the same the problem isn’t with B it’s with my interpretation of A.

Most other approaches runs into all manner of conspiracy theories. Most people here are “sure” that there was all manner of controversy “behind closed doors”. When there’s also the possibility that everyone went home feeling GREAT.

MonFrere

 

[MonFrere]

When I read this I just started to laugh, the word pompous comes to mind!

Nodor,

I’m going to do my best and get along with you. I’m sure I’ll find you’re a most fine fellow. I have every reason to believe it will be so.

MonFrere

 

[Nordar]

Nodor,

I’m going to do my best and get along with you. I’m sure I’ll find you’re a most fine fellow. I have every reason to believe it will be so.

MonFrere

No need to bother I am out of here, the thread has gone from what it was supposed to be about, (the music at the Mass) to a personal level.

You tried to make it about The musician (Personal)
You pounced on me for my spelling and gramatical errors. (personal)
You inferred that the ones who thought different from you, and did not like the music, where somehow less than, and in need of your prayers. (personal)
So you take care,

 

[mom_of_ten]

I didn’t consider that english may not be your primary language.

Mon Frere,

“english” should be capitalized…and “may” should be: “might”.

SORRY! I just couldn’t resist…this post’s intent is simply to add levity to what was developing into a rather tense exchange.

My motives are without malice and an effort to make you smile…that’s all.

Forgive my humor, if it in any way has offended you.

God Bless You All

 

[aloysiusg]

and shouldn’t “Frere” have an accent grave over the first e?

 

[mom_of_ten]

and shouldn’t “Frere” have an accent grave over the first e?

Yes, but I can NEVER work that “add special characters” thing;
HA HA

 

[aloysiusg]

Thankfully we don’t have to put any German umlauts in!!

BTW, did anyone notice that the third verse of “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” was done in German? We did that for the Pope - don’t even know if he caught it or not, but on the video of the mass I thought our pronunciation came across rather well, all things considered.

 

[benedictgal]

Al,

I’m convinced that people only believe what they want to believe. If people are convinced that the music was bad nothing will convince them. Vatican approval won’t be enough because everyone knows that the Vatican is hanging on by a thread of being overtaken by “liberals”. It would certainly be one of these ephemeral liberals that approved the music.

It’s also a special game these people play that if the Pope himself states his opinion on a subject - people will say – well, remember that statement wasn’t spoken ex cathedra so we don’t have to follow that one.

Liberals and conservatives all play the same games. It’s frustrating - but if Jesus died for all I cannot wiggle out of the fact that I’m to love them all. I will honestly make my best efforts to work to liberals and conservatives – each bring their own set of difficulties.

MonFrere

I’m curious. Do you or aoysiousg have any experience at all in planning liturgies? I have. I planned liturgies for my home diocese. On many occasions, I have had to contend with people who were trying (and still are) to get creative with the Mass and do things that the Church does not allow.

I would meet with my bishop and show him the readings, the music and the format for the worship aid. More often than not, his response was that whatever I thought would be fine with him. He trusted my judgment because I have always striven to plan liturgies in accorance with what the Church prescribes.

I highly suspect that this is what happened for the DC Mass. Msgr. Marini’s main focus was to make sure that none of the bizarre things (dancing and other nonense) that occurred during the tenure of previous Papal MC.would rear its ugly head during Benedict’s visit. He was certainly shown the Mass on paper, but, I doubt that they went so far as to review the kind of musical setting that would be used for these particular songs.

I am reminded of a comment that Francis Cardinal Arinze made regarding bizarre things that would happen at Pope John Paul’s Masses (although the context here is on dancing, the same thing applies here, as well):

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

Therefore, there is a precedent for something like this to happen.