Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

[aloysiusg]

Father’s comments were approximately 90% positive over the six days and countless hours of coverage - and yet a handful of contrarians on this thread slanderously present it as if it were just the opposite.

And the overwhelming majority of people who witnessed the DC Mass loved it, but we are to listen to the minorty of folks who didn’t like it and accept their opinion as gospel. And you might argue that you think more people hated than liked it. And you would be guilty of voluntary response bias - if you need me to I’ll explain. But simply put, you can’t make an overall conclusion from surveying who responds to self-initiated polling - it is inherently biased. Of course Fr N’s calls were overwhelming toward his side - the people that listen to him generally agree with his way of thinking.

Despite your opinions, it wasn’t a liturgical disgrace and some of you just can’t seem to accept that - get over it - move on. And it’s not because of an “I’m OK, you’re OK” rationale - it was because THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

And brotherhrolf, as much as I appreciate your love of the classics and such, much you cite in seemingly every other post your Cajun heritage? We get it - Dixie bad at mass. Classics good.

And I am neither a convert nor a young gun although I was born right around Vatican II.

OK - I’m done, go ahead and start flaming me, it’s not like I would expect any of you to do any bit of reflection and try and understand and respect an opposing viewpoint. You haven’t so far, why start now?

 

[MrS]

You can see this provincial response demonstrated in two ways:

• “Multiculturalism is invalid in the Mass as it celebrates the individual and not God.”
  Hmm, I suppose these folks would say the same thing about the Pentecost as well when all heard the Word of God in their own tongue, in their own cultural vernacular.
  .

Hmmm. Peter spoke in one language, and all those who listened to him understood.

But the Pope should speak in many languages so many will understand him.

The Church selected Latin as its official language perhaps so that it would provide a sense of unity to Catholics in every land.

Today we drop that language of unity and consider multi-cultures the key to influence the liturgy.

I guess it really is all about us.

.

 

[Strummer]

Watch the Vesper Service in Washington the night before and compare it to the Mass in DC. Stark contrast.

So? Just because they were different does NOT imply that one was “better” than the other. To claim such is a matter of personal opinion and at odds with the Holy Father’s celebration of our faith here in the US.

You young folks and our converts have not been exposed to our deep and profound Catholic music heritage.

That is a broad-brushed assumption there and it is predicated on your obvious belief that “if only these poor, ignorant, misguided fools could HEAR the music I prefer, they would hold the same opinion of it that I do.” Sorry. Nope. I’m in my 40’s (deeply into my 40’s) and to coin a phrase, “Been there, done that.” I grant you that, when performed by trained and talented people, traditional musical expression can be quite beautiful. But because the people in the pews cannot participate in those sung prayers, such music becomes a performance and it is the more “common” music that brings the faithful together. I suppose we could set aside a few minutes just before Mass for a “Latin Lesson minute”. But even so, people would just be mouthing sylables that mean nothing to them.

Fifteen hundred years of musical tradition ripped out and thrown out in favor of ofttimes banal, mundane, pedestrian, insipid, and trivial music.

Glad to see you refrain from being insulting…NOT. And you wonder why people get annoyed at your pronouncements?

Let me give you something to think about. If you can hear Kermit and Miss Piggy singing the hymn …that came from my cathedral choir director back in the early 90s. Muppet Music is Muppet Music.

Great. Now I have a image of Miss Piggy sing “Ave Maria”.

Our heritage is trashed. I am not allowed to celebrate my heritage because you young folks and converts have never been exposed to it. Where is the justice in that?

You know, I do understand your complaint here. You miss the way the Mass, served by a particular musical liturgy, touched your heart and moved your soul. Of course, you would grieve that. But, you also fail to recognize that not all of us are wired the same way. Our hearts, our souls are moved by a slightly different formula. We’ve heard that music. We’ve enjoy it. But it doesn’t reach us the way it used to reach others, forgive me, back in the day.

 

[MrS]

Sorry, Dan. This is the same kind of “I’m OK; you’re OK - let’s just focus on the Eucharist” that has got us to where we are today. Watch the Vesper Service in Washington the night before and compare it to the Mass in DC. Stark contrast. You young folks and our converts have not been exposed to our deep and profound Catholic music heritage. You are hearing from those of us who 40 years ago kept our mouths shut in submission to the Magesterium of HMC when we were subjected to having Simon and Garfunkle inserted into the Mass. You can listen to all of the converts and all of you young folk but it can’t change history or tradition. Or solid Church teaching which teaches the exact opposite of what so many want to believe.

?

That is why my frustration level is usually kept in check. Those who want the all-inclusive liturgy have no idea of what you are trying to explain to them.

They want to believe change is good. Unfortunately we have seen that changes were made, forced, or whatever, and then we realized what fruits they bore.

Benedict will lead. I will follow. More of Him, less of me.

.

 

[Strummer]

Hmmm. Peter spoke in one language, and all those who listened to him understood.

Because they each heard him in their own language.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Just as well,the post I tried to post got deleted. You young folk and you converts. We have a 1500 year heritage of music. Try to remember that. Many of us are posting from memories of that heritage. We’re not dead yet and we are feeling better.!

 

[harveyc]

Hmmm. Peter spoke in one language, and all those who listened to him understood.

But the Pope should speak in many languages so many will understand him.

The Church selected Latin as its official language perhaps so that it would provide a sense of unity to Catholics in every land.

Today we drop that language of unity and consider multi-cultures the key to influence the liturgy.

I guess it really is all about us.

.

Not a major point, but I believe Peter spoke Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin (and maybe Greek?).

I started a class to learn Latin and think it’s becoming popular to learn, but I dropped out as it was moving at too quick of a pace for my old brain (coming on 51). My wife is still at it and having a hard time keeping up.

Mr. Miller, don’t count me as a critic of Fr. Neuhaus, but he does seem to harsh in this case and did seem confused.

 

[anamchara]

Despite your opinions, it wasn’t a liturgical disgrace and some of you just can’t seem to accept that - get over it - move on. And it’s not because of an “I’m OK, you’re OK” rationale - it was because THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

[lrs]

Dear MrS,
contrary to what our own self image/identity distortions would have us believe, we are not the center of the universe in this country, there are many other cultures, nationalities that needed to be addressed. Non speaking English people so to say.
God Bless Peter, but there were not millions of Catholics during his time, he did not have a jet or mass media. He communicated in his region. Now, if you adhere to the Charismatic beliefs, gift of tongues, perhaps you could call that the universal language.
I heard Pope Benedict ask the young people to pray for Charisms.
I believe it cheapens enormously the gift of his visit, these commentaries on “how Pope Benedict must have felt” Did anyone see his face, his joy. Can’t measure the Grace of his visit. How dare anyone even comment on how his visit here was not as it should have been.
LOOK AT THE FRUITS. I am off this thread, the negativity is a SIN. and after the gift of having the Pope here. (the Vicar of Christ), this frightens me.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I am going to commit sepuku. That is an honorable Japanese ceremony in which I take out my tanto and open my belly.
Why?

Oh, gosh, y’all we have AC’s husband proceeding to tell me that at my age and at my experience with HMC I don’t know what I am talking about. No, I wasn’t an altar boy; no I haven’t sung in the cathedral choir for the last 25 years. We all know that AC is “She Who Must Be Obeyed.”

So, I’m just a Nimno. Didn’t grow up in HMC before Vatican II. Don’t have any idea about what went on before Vatican II. AC and Strummer are the “be all and end all”

I recognize that I am being unchariitable and apoligioze. I am a 56 year old Roman Catholic who grew up before Vaticn II. I was an altar boy and went to Catholic school from K to 12. I grew up singing the music I sing. I could sing all of the chants our Holy
Father used without reference. Strummer, I make no apology for my past. You and AC can just sail into the sunset. Neither one of you can take my past from me. You may not like it but I, and so many others, have a past.

It really saddens me. Forty years ago we had the roots ripped out from under us. I’m not allowed to talk about that. We all should just adhere to our predecesors. AC knows best.

 

[MrS]

Dear MrS,
contrary to what … am off this thread, the negativity is a SIN. and after the gift of having the Pope here. (the Vicar of Christ), this frightens me.

Bye Irs… I guess you should avoid posts that are tongue in cheek when you don’t realize that is what they are.

 

[anamchara]

I am going to commit sepuku. That is an honorable Japanese ceremony in which I take out my tanto and open my belly.
Why?

Oh, gosh, y’all we have AC’s husband proceeding to tell me that at my age and at my experience with HMC I don’t know what I am talking about. No, I wasn’t an altar boy; no I haven’t sung in the cathedral choir for the last 25 years. We all know that AC is “She Who Must Be Obeyed.”

So, I’m just a Nimno. Didn’t grow up in HMC before Vatican II. Don’t have any idea about what went on before Vatican II. AC and Strummer are the “be all and end all”

I recognize that I am being unchariitable and apoligioze. I am a 56 year old Roman Catholic who grew up before Vaticn II. I was an altar boy and went to Catholic school from K to 12. I grew up singing the music I sing. I could sing all of the chants our Holy
Father used without reference. Strummer, I make no apology for my past. You and AC can just sail into the sunset. Neither one of you can take my past from me. You may not like it but I, and so many others, have a past.

It really saddens me. Forty years ago we had the roots ripped out from under us. I’m not allowed to talk about that. We all should just adhere to our predecesors. AC knows best.

Ok, see this is where you are gravely wrong. No one is not acknowledging your past and no one is disregarding the music of the past either. We all know you loved everything before VACII, we all know you were an altar boy. You repeat this constantly. I don’t have any problems with the the music of the past and I have said before. I would support my parish if they wanted to add chant here and there. Infact we do use latin now. You want to turn this into some sort of persecution and that is simply not the case. My huband in a different post acknowledged the loss you might have felt. I even posted a thread on the topic from a movie I saw once about the senitivity of those who felt horrible about the change. It was several months ago, you even posted in it.

Heavens.

 

[aloysiusg]

Benedict will lead. I will follow. More of Him, less of me.

.

MrS, does that mean if he (the Pope) does not chastise the music and musicians than you won’t either?

I recognize that I am being unchariitable and apoligioze. I am a 56 year old Roman Catholic who grew up before Vaticn II. I was an altar boy and went to Catholic school from K to 12. I grew up singing the music I sing. I could sing all of the chants our Holy
Father used without reference. It really saddens me. Forty years ago we had the roots ripped out from under us. I’m not allowed to talk about that. We all should just adhere to our predecesors. AC knows best.

brotherhrolf - I empathize with you here. Having grown up used to a certain liturgy, and appreciating how that liturgy served your needs, it must have been very disconcerting to you to have the experience uprooted by the SVC. That’s why I am very glad that in many areas the Latin Mass is still celebrated, and I hope it is in your area. I love singing Chant and the Latin Mass - my favorite part of the mass at DC was the Tu Es Petrus as the Pope entered, I thought it powerful and beautiful. But I also appreciated and was moved the music of the Gospel and Intercultural Choir. I would hope that everyone could focus on the fact that the mass was meant to help everyone give glory to God, and so everyone was provided an avenue to do so - I see that as a good thing. I don’t get why others don’t.

 

[Strummer]

I am going to commit sepuku. That is an honorable Japanese ceremony in which I take out my tanto and open my belly.

My goodness, someone call the whaaaa-mbulance!

Oh, gosh, y’all we have AC’s husband proceeding to tell me that at my age and at my experience with HMC I don’t know what I am talking about. No, I wasn’t an altar boy; no I haven’t sung in the cathedral choir for the last 25 years. We all know that AC is “She Who Must Be Obeyed.”

So, I’m just a Nimno. Didn’t grow up in HMC before Vatican II. Don’t have any idea about what went on before Vatican II. AC and Strummer are the “be all and end all”

Sadly, your rush to don your near-eternal mantle of victimhood has led you right past all reason. I never claimed to be anything near the “be all and end all”. Furthermore, I’ve given mention and respect to your experience and the subject of your preferences. I DO, however, take issue with your presentation…

I recognize that I am being unchariitable and apoligioze.

Well, at least you finally recognize and apologize. Now, do you also see how/why you impugn your message when you deliver it in such a manner for which you have to subsequently apologize?

I am a 56 year old Roman Catholic who grew up before Vaticn II. I was an altar boy and went to Catholic school from K to 12. I grew up singing the music I sing. I could sing all of the chants our Holy
Father used without reference.

And this has made your life fuller beyond belief, no doubt. But such is not the experience of many of today’s Catholics in the US. Recognizing this does not invalidate your experience, but as you insist upon projecting it upon all others, you are attempting to invalidate others’ expressions.

Strummer, I make no apology for my past. You and AC can just sail into the sunset. Neither one of you can take my past from me. You may not like it but I, and so many others, have a past.

You are claiming innocence for a crime you have NOT been accused of. No one seeks to “take [your] past from [you]”. However, several here might appreicate it if you could stop foisting it upon us at every turn. As it has been said, “enough already; we get it.”

 

[Joysong]

Just an observation that redeems the posters who are justifiably concerned, Brotherhrolf, that you never moved beyond graduation and healed of your anger over Simon & Gar’s music. Maybe you don’t realize the high frequency of your posts lamenting your bad experience, but I tell you, there are 61 posts, all repeating the same sad story.

In defense of those who have indicated that your repetitive angst borders on overkill, and who have kindly tried to help your OCD, it seems that you just may have a problem in this area that needs to go to God’s throne with prayer to forgive and let go.

I’m not sure this search address will remain valid, but if it does not, it might be a good idea to validate this with your own search.

Everyone is patiently concerned that you should have been over this by now, and it is symptomatic of a deep problem that we are not able to help, but it needs healing. I say this in kindness, since you have lashed out at others maybe just once too often, when in reality their words are true.

 

[30miller]

Sorry, Dan. This is the same kind of “I’m OK; you’re OK - let’s just focus on the Eucharist” that has got us to where we are today. Watch the Vesper Service in Washington the night before and compare it to the Mass in DC. Stark contrast. You young folks and our converts have not been exposed to our deep and profound Catholic music heritage. You are hearing from those of us who 40 years ago kept our mouths shut in submission to the Magesterium of HMC when we were subjected to having Simon and Garfunkle inserted into the Mass. You can listen to all of the converts and all of you young folk but it can’t change history or tradition. Or solid Church teaching which teaches the exact opposite of what so many want to believe.

Jazzfest has opened in New Orleans. I could go down to da city and hear music like I heard in Washington. But I can keep pointing it out, over and over and over again, when JP II came to New Orleans in '87 he did not hear ragtime, Dixieland, jazz, or a Cajun two step. Dance hall music belongs in the dance hall.

It is a big problem. NONE of the other venues for the HF’s visit were like Washington. I’m OK; you’re OK" is unfortunately a fiction perpetrated by you young folk and our converts. Forty years ago we had our roots ripped out from under us in “the spirit of Vatican II”. Fifteen hundred years of musical tradition ripped out and thrown out in favor of ofttimes banal, mundane, pedestrian, insipid, and trivial music.

Let me give you something to think about. If you can hear Kermit and Miss Piggy singing the hymn …that came from my cathedral choir director back in the early 90s. Muppet Music is Muppet Music.

Placido Domingo sings Panis Angelicus and all of a sudden it’s a performance. We blythely pass over the sacro-salsa much less the Haitian in French. Mon Dieu! We had Haitian immigrants here in Louisiana both black and white in the 1790s. French is still spoken here and as I have pointed out over and over and over again there was no Cajun fiddler at JPII’s Mass in New Orleans, no ragtime, no Dixieland, no Jazz, no Mardi Gras Indians, no second liners. So exactly what was the Mass at Washington?

As Fr. Neuhaus pointed out so eloquently in his article, it was “in your face”. I cannot believe otherwise. And so, all you young folk and our converts…I’m 56, I’m not dead yet. We have every bit as much right to insist upon our legitimate cultural heritage as you do to adhere to the banal, vaccuuous, insipid, pedestrian, and mundane music that you seem to be so enamoured of.

I know you don’t like our stilted, antiquated, obsolete, “nobody knew what we were saying in Latin” music. OCP is not Palestrina. GIA is not Vivaldi. Dance rhythmns can be successfully incorporated in to sacred music. One only need to listen to Monteverdi’s “Vespers of 1610”. But the composers of the sacro-salsa are not in the same league as Monteverdi.

This is not something new for me. My classmates in "69 thought it was OK to include Simon and Garfunkle…all for the sake of having a guitar folk Mass. Groovy, doncha know.

I’ve stewed for 40 years. For all you young folks and converts I ask you to listen to the music of our heritage. Durufle and Faure wrote motets into the last century.

Our heritage is trashed. I am not allowed to celebrate my heritage because you young folks and converts have never been exposed to it. Where is the justice in that?

Hrolf , though I agree with most all your main points and where you are coming from - limiting the blame to “…you young folk and our converts…” goes way too far. The “HaugenHaas’s” and their followers happen to be right in your age bracket and at least one of them was Catholic (Haas) (with the other being the end result of multi-ecumenical-inclusive-culturalism - Haugen). That’s a cradle 60’s Catholic and a protestant (still, as far as I know). Neither group constituting either the current “young” or “converts”.
No, just as the “60’s generation” is responsible for the mess our country is in as a whole - they have their hand deep into this problem as well.

 

[MrS]

MrS, does that mean if he (the Pope) does not chastise the music and musicians than you won’t either?

I don’t see why he would need to chastise the musicians. They were quite talented … good at what they do.

I do see him writing and expressing his desire for the Church (not just himself) to recognize and return to more liturgical music and language, and posture etc. We see that in his example.

Now, he may often praise the music… and I will too. I could actually walk around the house and enjoy it, or tap my foot. But some of it just did not belong in a liturgy whose purpose is to worship God. When it is included, I hear the reasons given as variations of “…but we are so divise a culture…”

I guess an extreme analogy might be this…
Suppose the celebrant decided to add new things to the words of consecration, or read from a different book at the time of the Gospel reading, or invite everyone up into the sanctuary for fellowship.
And the reason given is a variation of “…but those in the pews are all different individuals and they have different likes and dislikes…”
These things just don’t belong in the liturgy. They distract from the total worship we should give to God at least in the Mass.

Oh well, we do see these variations already. And we should speak up about them.

Will all agree…nope! So what.

We already see the wordings changed (and being changed back!), and we see inclusive language (also being changed back)

I think we will see more changes…back to what was a true universal liturgy… by this Pope. In his examples, in his writings, in his teaching.

More of Him, less of me.

 

[30miller]

Brotherhrolf,…it seems that you just may have a problem in this area that needs to go to God’s throne with prayer to forgive and let go… you should have been over this by now, and it is symptomatic of a deep problem that we are not able to help …

WOW - just goes to show you, live long enough and you’ll see everything! Up until now I was not aware of joysong’s self-admitted powers (above) to discern sin in others (brotherhrolf, in this instance) - for only sin would require going to God’s throne for forgiveness as joysong directs hrolf to do - and it’s his only hope, as well - uh, at least according to these powers joysong claims to have. Possibly joysong will help hrolf (and the rest of us) even more by giving us directions to whatever she is referring to as God’s throne (does our local parish Church qualify) and also coach us in exactly what the most effective prayer would be so that we can all become forgiven of our thoughts about the D.C. mass. (And, apparently, we must go directly to God for this forgiveness - we can’t even just confess to our regular confessors - harboring such thoughts about the D.C. mass being apparently such a grave sin - that even they cannot absolve us of it. Once again - WOW)!

 

[KathleenElsie]

Real good comparison Joysong…NOT

Comparing the Pope’s insight on how to approach Christianity and Judism:

declaring one way to be the only right one, then religion is perverted into an ideological dictatorship, whose totalitarian passion does not build peace, but destroys it

with differences in opinion/value among Catholics in how they view music in the liturgy.

Even for you that is stretching it, and does not even rise to a level of desparation.

So once again you miss the point. The Liturgy is not about us. It is about Him. The Liturgy should form us, not the other way around.

The Jewish Passover liturgy was written in stone. Deviations in postures, music, food, etc were not at the discretion of the participants. Nor should the Liturgy of the Mass and Eucharist be at the discretion of the participants.

Your link attempts to equate “an approach to dealing with” differences in religion to your “right way - wrong way” opinions about liturgical music.

Oh well, at least two posters will agree with you.

.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Because they each heard him in their own language.

And this is why the Missal is so wonderful. The one side is Latin and the other is in the native tongue. So even if there are people from many countries each can follow in their own language. Isn’t this a wonderful thing?