Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

[30miller]

And the overwhelming majority of people who witnessed the DC Mass loved it…

It’s hard to get past your first ambiguous(at best) or false (at worst) claim, al - didn’t even have to go in a full sentence.
Where do you come up with this “OVERWHELMING MAJORITY” - I never got a ballot and I watched the whole thing on TV. Or are you limiting it to the 48,000 +/- who attended in person? Well, I wasn’t aware they were given the chance to “vote” either. Were they? Of course not. Why - you just made it up, didn’t you? If not - please cite where it comes from so the rest of us can educate ourselves. Thanks

 

[frommi]

It’s hard to get past your first ambiguous(at best) or false (at worst) claim, al - didn’t even have to go in a full sentence.
Where do you come up with this “OVERWHELMING MAJORITY” - I never got a ballot and I watched the whole thing on TV. Or are you limiting it to the 48,000 +/- who attended in person? Well, I wasn’t aware they were given the chance to “vote” either. Were they? Of course not. Why - you just made it up, didn’t you? If not - please cite where it comes from so the rest of us can educate ourselves. Thanks

Fr. Niehaus seems comfortable making similar statements based on the ‘inbox’ of his email.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[30miller]

Fr. Niehaus seems comfortable making similar statements based on the ‘inbox’ of his email.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Ah yes, “Whats good for the goose is good for the gander”! Words to guide us, for sure - none better have ever been spoken. What chapter & verse in the Bible do they come from again?
Now read your own words - Fr. Neuhaus tells us EXACTLY what he is basing his observation on - so we know he based it on the thousand or so emails he received. His comment is derived from them. Aloysius just seems to pull his out of his hat.
Now, I’ll ask my question of aloysius again - from whence came this hyperbole?

 

[aloysiusg]

you believe what you want miller, and I’ll believe what I want. My representative sample told me the exact opposite of what Fr N’s told him.

 

[MonFrere]

I know you don’t like our stilted, antiquated, obsolete, “nobody knew what we were saying in Latin” music. OCP is not Palestrina. GIA is not Vivaldi. Dance rhythmns can be successfully incorporated in to sacred music. One only need to listen to Monteverdi’s “Vespers of 1610”. But the composers of the sacro-salsa are not in the same league as Monteverdi.

I wrote a musical setting to the Angelus and sent it off to Paluch (of the the sisters of OCP). In the process of their evaluation of the work they sent me a letter telling me (the composer) that they reserved the right to alter the language to respect inclusive language! I think it’s appalling that they gave themselves the right to alter what I (the composer) desired for my setting of the Angelus. These folks need some serious clerical oversight.

Having said that I think the Church needs so somehow insure musical quality in those who are the liturgical music ministers. I think, ideally, that a liturgical music minister is to be honored as a professional – as is a doctor or lawyer. IMO – the Mass that produced the most aesthetic liturgy, from a musical point of view, was the Mass at St. Patricks. Beautifully done. But to deserve this honor one needs to pay their dues in education. They need to develop some serious “chops” if they are to be an accompanist and/or really have mastery over vocal technique and how to manipulate a choir. And as the above quote indicates they need to be totally familiar with the musical patrimony of the Church. One cannot bring the Church into tomorrow without knowing how it got to today. I know that music education today in the public schools is abysmal. I don’t know about Catholic schools. What the Catholic Church has done in music for western civilization has been a monumental achievement – from Jewish chant - to Christian chant and monody - through several stages of polyphony - to the development of the musical instruments - even the concept of the written musical score to notate music as the ideas became too complex to pass on through rote. And these are only a few of the great traditions done all in the service of liturgical music.

If one is educated in our musical patrimony I don’t think some forum members would be spoken to in the manner I read. What we are speaking to here is FAR MORE than “my music” vs “your music”. This argument, to me, demonstrates the cluelessness some have about what’s taking place. This is NOT a generation issue.

MonFrere

 

[brotherhrolf]

Hrolf , though I agree with most all your main points and where you are coming from - limiting the blame to “…you young folk and our converts…” goes way too far. The “HaugenHaas’s” and their followers happen to be right in your age bracket and at least one of them was Catholic (Haas) (with the other being the end result of multi-ecumenical-inclusive-culturalism - Haugen). That’s a cradle 60’s Catholic and a protestant (still, as far as I know). Neither group constituting either the current “young” or “converts”.
No, just as the “60’s generation” is responsible for the mess our country is in as a whole - they have their hand deep into this problem as well.

Naw, it was my own generation that started this stuff. But it has to be looked at in the context of the time. FJ is a dear friend of mine but whereas I love traditional Catholic music, FJ would be be happy with the folks in California. FJ is a CPA today. He was “crazy” back then and I enlisted.

I get hammered because I love sacred classical music. FJ and his podnahs usurp the music at our reunions because it takes time and practice to sing a sacred motet. Much easier to pull out a guitar and strum and grin. It is conveniently ignored by FJ that we had a schola in 67 which was dissed when we graduated in 69. I put in three hours of practice a week as a cathedral chorister. My money is put where my mouth is. Not all of us were happy with the “a’strummin” and “a grinnin”" Forty years later, our voice is heard.

 

[Strummer]

Now, I’ll ask my question of aloysius again - from whence came this hyperbole?

Has he not said that he was there? Can we not then infer that his statements come from his direct observations? Now, I grant you that his sample was probably statistically insufficient. However, it was also far less likely to be as biased as Fr. N’s data. As has been pointed out already, voluntary responses are practically by definition biased especially since they are volunteering from a forum made up primarily of his supporters. Frankly, I’m surprised as much as 20% disagreed with him from that group. I’d have expected it to be much smaller.

Look, 30’, just because you agree with a finding does not mean it is valid, nor correct. It reflects the sad state of critical thinking in this country when we treat discourse and debate as sport and “root, root, root for the home team” no matter what.

 

[Crumpy]

Did this really happen?

I almost puked yesterday when, at the reception on the south lawn of the White House, Nancy Pelosi dropped to her knee and kissed the Pope’s hand.

:vomit:

At the risk of being ruled “off topic” I have to say that that the Mass at Nationals was as bad as the yelling and screaming in the Basilica of the National Shrine (Nave) when the Pope was strolling through, before the meeting with the Bishops in the crypt church.

Polite applause might have been tolerated, if it was peaceful and restrained, but there were people yelling in the cathedral at the Pope. That sort of thing was OK outside, when the Pope arrived, but INSIDE the shrine – very poor.

Even at St. Patrick’s, those nuns were almost throwing themselves at the Pope to shake / kiss his hand. C’mon girls, grow up. No doubt the Secret Service protection was appreciated by the Pope.

 

[MrS]

*Originally Posted by aloysiusg *
And the overwhelming majority of people who witnessed the DC Mass loved it…

It’s hard to get past your first ambiguous(at best) or false (at worst) claim, al - didn’t even have to go in a full sentence.
Where do you come up with this “OVERWHELMING MAJORITY” - I never got a ballot and I watched the whole thing on TV. Or are you limiting it to the 48,000 +/- who attended in person? Well, I wasn’t aware they were given the chance to “vote” either. Were they? Of course not. Why - you just made it up, didn’t you? If not - please cite where it comes from so the rest of us can educate ourselves. Thanks

and then…

you believe what you want miller, and I’ll believe what I want. My representative sample told me the exact opposite of what Fr N’s told him.

Any odds that the “representative” is protestant and those he polled, of course, loved it. Makes them feel right at home.

Crazy music…not really if you like the concert atmosphere. If it had been done at night, perhaps the lighters would have come out. But this was during the Sacred Liturgy.

Just uncalled for.

IMHO

.

 

[frommi]

*Originally Posted by aloysiusg *
And the overwhelming majority of people who witnessed the DC Mass loved it…

and then…

you believe what you want miller, and I’ll believe what I want. My representative sample told me the exact opposite of what Fr N’s told him.

Any odds that the “representative” is protestant and those he polled, of course, loved it. Makes them feel right at home.

Crazy music…not really if you like the concert atmosphere. If it had been done at night, perhaps the lighters would have come out. But this was during the Sacred Liturgy.

Just uncalled for.

IMHO

.

Why is it that anyone who is okay with syncopated rhythms is automatically a protestant in your book?

 

[MrS]

Why is it that anyone who is okay with syncopated rhythms is automatically a protestant in your book?

Why is it that anyone who introduces their own concepts into the liturgy is okay in your book?

 

[chicago]

MonFrere: See my post above. Mais cher what I wrote is the truth. Do you have any idea of how many jazz artists the Archdiocese of New Orleans could have called upon who are Catholic? (Al Hirt, Pete Fountain, Wynton Marsalsis (actually any of the Marsalis family, they were part of my parish), Harry Connick Sr. and Harry Connick Jr). Pete Fountain might have played Just a Closer Walk with Thee on the clarinet but he didn’t. So why the Hispanic dance music? There are Cuban and Mexican composers of motets they could have drawn on. And if you want to focus on the multi-cultural issue why weren’t we Cajuns included?

Dave Brubek’s “Jazz Mass” would have been cool.

And I’m disappointed that they didn’t use Pete Fountain. That would have been wonderful.

 

[frommi]

Why is it that anyone who introduces their own concepts into the liturgy is okay in your book?

Nice try…but nothing about the DC liturgy introduced anyone’s own unique concepts into the liturgy. It was rubrically correct, which is always your big concern.

 

[aloysiusg]

MrS, IMHO only works if you have some sense of humility.

IMHO

Oh and yes, it was all Protestants who came up in the Stadium afterwards to congrtulate us on the job we did - somehow they commandeered the tickets from the DC Catholics.

Do not go gently into that good night,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

[Los_Angeles]

It does not matter if a survey determined that 99% of the Papal Mass attendees at Yankee Stadium did not like the music.

If no rules of the Catholic Church were broken then any complaining about the music is reduced to personal taste & opinion.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.

 

[Los_Angeles]

It does not matter if a survey determined that 1%, 49%, 51%, or 99% of the Papal Mass attendees at Yankee Stadium did not like the music.

If no rules of the Catholic Church were broken then any complaining about the music is reduced to personal taste & opinion.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.

 

[30miller]

you believe what you want miller, and I’ll believe what I want. My representative sample told me the exact opposite of what Fr N’s told him.

Thank you, aloysius. I now know that your derived your opinion from your “representative sample” as you state above - which I can only conclude was the three of you - the old “me, myself, and I”. Just what I had suspected. My previous use of the word hyperbole severely undercharacterized your claims.

 

[30miller]

Has he not said that he was there? Can we not then infer that his statements come from his direct observations? Now, I grant you that his sample was probably statistically insufficient. However, it was also far less likely to be as biased as Fr. N’s data. As has been pointed out already, voluntary responses are practically by definition biased especially since they are volunteering from a forum made up primarily of his supporters. Frankly, I’m surprised as much as 20% disagreed with him from that group. I’d have expected it to be much smaller.

Look, 30’, just because you agree with a finding does not mean it is valid, nor correct. It reflects the sad state of critical thinking in this country when we treat discourse and debate as sport and “root, root, root for the home team” no matter what.

Aloysius answered for himself in post 659, thanks, and it was exactly what I had guessed and inferred - it was the “spirit of national stadium II”.
Father Neuhaus’s sample of 1,000+/- emails seems at least to have a shot at being a representative sample for the statistically inquisitive mind. Aloysius’s sample of Aloysius has none.
Since EWTN provided the ONLY wall-to-wall coverage of the Pope’s visit - one can’t say that they (Fr. Neuhaus’s sample) are all “…volunteering from a forum made up primarily of his supporters…”. One only has had to read along on this thread to see all the critics of both Raymond and Fr. who all watched the FREE coverage from where? - no other than - (drum roll, please, and let’s all say it together) EWTN. So Raymond and Fr. were undeniably not simply singing to the chorus in this instance as you incorrectly claim. And your figure of 20% is wrong as well - Fr. Neuhaus said that of the thousand or so emails 90% or more supported his comments. That leaves less than 10% - not 20.
Look, Strummer, just because you agree with a finding does not mean it is valid, nor correct. It reflects the sad state of critical thinking in this country when we treat discourse and debate as sport and “root, root, root for the home team” no matter what.
Give me an E. Give me a W. Give me a T. Give me an N. Go team.

 

[Cactus]

It was obviously a carefully planned “up yours” to the Holy Father.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It was obviously a carefully planned “up yours” to the Holy Father.

Sadly. Only in America.

Did anyone read the Holy Fathers response to the birthday concert that was presented to him upon his return to Rome? He spoke in glowing terms of the traditional classical music played for this occasion.