Papal nuncio: Catholic division undermines religious freedom

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What I have learned on CAF today It’s OK to vote for a man who supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand BUT it’s a mortal sin to shop at Walmart.
 
Al_Moritz said:
striving to be a good Catholic with a well-informed conscience, for myself I can impossibly with any good conscience embrace a simplistic view of ‘GOP or bust’, for reasons already stated at length.
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The Archbishop speaks for the Vatican. In other words, he is an envoy for the Pope. As a Catholic, you can accept this…or reject it…you have free will. But the message is clear:

One party is the champion of abortion on demand and infanticide. (D)
The same party took God out of their platform. (D)
The same party is the champion of gay “marriage.” (D)
The same party is shoving the contraceptive mandate down the throat of the CC. (D)
The same party is the funding voice of the abortion mill, Planned Parenthood. (D)

You can support this party if you desire…but your Church is telling you that it is intrinsically
 
wynnejj said:
It seems that the Papal Nuncio is certainly suggesting that Catholics should not support a certain “major party” who maintains “basic principles” that are “intrinsic evils”.
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No doubt. But the Obama supporters cannot address this…because there is no response.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
No, but I live in a rural area. If any of the people here are pro choice, pro gay marriage, or pro female priests, they’ve never voiced it. I haven’t noticed anyone on these forums promoting any of those ideas and identifying themselves as ‘Catholic’. I don’t know what you mean about surveys.

The Church is the place people can find correction. We are all sinners. We shouldn’t be calling for the removal of any from His Church. We have Catholics in good standing and Catholics who are not. They will not receive correction through separation, and the Church doesn’t teach that.
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Not completely true. The Church has something called excommunication.

I would also argue that they have already separated themselves.
 
Mickey said:
No doubt. But the Obama supporters cannot address this…because there is no response.
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Oh, we have already responded at length. If you continue to choose to ignore the arguments, which are based on a careful reading of the documents by the USCCB and Cardinal Ratzinger, the current Pope, I cannot help you. Others who are more open-minded to what these documents actually say, as opposed as to what you want them to say according to your biases, will properly consider the arguments.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Some will point out a few men of the Church,
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The Papal Nuncio settles any argument or confusion that the faithful may have. It is intrinsically evil to support the party of abortion, gay marriage and Planned Parenthood. Supporting intrinsic evil is a mortal sin. You can point fingers and make accusations all you want about people casting judgment and using ad hominems…but it is the Papal Nuncio who says this.There are those on this forum merely reiterating the comments of the Papal Nuncio stating that this party (D) stands for intrinsic evil.

To point this out is not casting judgment…it is being a fruit inspector (to borrow a phrase from Scott). 😃
 
Al_Moritz said:
Oh, we have already responded at length. If you continue to choose to ignore the arguments, based on a careful reading of the documents by the USCCB and Cardinal Ratzinger, the current Pope, I cannot help you. Others who are more open-minded to what these documents actually say, as opposed as to what you want them to say according to your biases, will properly consider the arguments.
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It’s obviously not based on careful reading -more like careful distortion I suspect if I had voted to support intrinsic evil I’d be trying to convince everyone it was ok also(or is the truth of the matter that you are trying to convince yourself?)
 
estesbob said:
It’s obviously not based on careful reading -more like careful distortion I suspect if I had voted to support intrinsic evil I’d be trying to convince everyone it was ok also(or is the truth of the matter that you are trying to convince yourself?)
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Yes…an effort to protect an ailing conscience.
 
estesbob said:
It’s obviously not based on careful reading -more like careful distortion I suspect if I had voted to support intrinsic evil I’d be trying to convince everyone it was ok also(or is the truth of the matter that you are trying to convince yourself?)
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Nobody here is supporting intrinsic evil, see:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10027182&postcount=15

If you stubbornly continue to refuse to acknowledge that, I cannot help you. I consider this discussion to be over. I follow the relevant documents of the Catholic Church. You may have the last word, if it makes you feel better.
 
Al_Moritz said:
Nobody here is supporting intrinsic evil, see:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10027182&postcount=15

If you stubbornly continue to refuse to acknowledge that, I cannot help you. I consider this discussion to be over. I follow the relevant documents of the Catholic Church. You may have the last word, if it makes you feel better.
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Disclaimer: I have not read through this entire thread.

I see what you are saying Al Moritz. Unfortunately, a large percentage of Catholics who voted for Obama are pro-choice (ie. support his policies on abortion). You may not be one of them, but many are pro-choice (or better known as “personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice”.
 
JimG said:
We have long since drifted from a discussion of the EWTN article linked by the OP to a more general discussion of voting and of the USCCB document “Faithful Citizenship.” …

If only “Faithful Citizenship” had been as clear as the Archbishop!
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Cognitive dissonance? Are you inviting further conversational drift?

I agree with the end statement but not the initial statement. I disagree that voting and Faithful Citizenship discussion is not germane … drifting away from the topic at hand … to the Archbishop’s comments. He clearly is drawing a line in the sand about a certain “major political party” based on its espoused “basic principles” that fight for and promote an agenda of “intrinsic evils”. This has to be weighed with the bishop’s view of forming conscience so that we can exercise our faithful citizenship duty correctly.
 
Lucky7 said:
Disclaimer: I have not read through this entire thread.

I see what you are saying Al Moritz. Unfortunately, a large percentage of Catholics who voted for Obama are pro-choice (ie. support his policies on abortion). You may not be one of them, but many are pro-choice (or better known as “personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice”.
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And many are “pro-life with exceptions.”

Does discrimination reduce the evilness?
 
BrigidofKildare said:
“There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons. Voting in this way would be permissible** only for truly grave moral reasons**, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil.”

Note that “other morally grave reasons” contains the word “other” – obviously other than abortion etc. There is no twisting of words that will change that. "

My question is what in the world could you hold as “truly grave moral reasons” which would be more important than the moral issues of abortion and euthansia? If we don’t stand against these moral evils, the rest won’t matter.
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The words “which would be more important than the moral issues of abortion and euthansia?” do not appear in the original statement. That’s YOUR addition. I think Al is right.
 
Al_Moritz said:
Nobody here is supporting intrinsic evil.
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So say you, but the Archbishop is indicating otherwise when one supports a “major political party” whose platform states as a “basic principle” an agenda of “intrinsic evils”. He’s telling educators and Catholic public figures to knock it off because you are complicit, intentionally or unintentionally, with an agenda to cause division in the church that is a true “menace” to religious freedom. If he speaks for the Pope correctly, than the bishops are not speaking clearly and conclusively enough in the Faithful Citizenship … so good thing they don’t read it from the pulpit if it obfuscates the message from the Pope.
 
wynnejj said:
So say you, but the Archbishop is indicating otherwise when one supports a “major political party” whose platform states as a “basic principle” an agenda of “intrinsic evils”. He’s telling educators and Catholic public figures to knock it off because you are complicit, intentionally or unintentionally, with an agenda to cause division in the church that is a true “menace” to religious freedom.
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Exactly! But sadly, there are some who are so loyal to the (D) party…it would not matter if the warning was spoken by the Pope himself. 🤷
 
wynnejj said:
So say you, but the Archbishop is indicating otherwise when one supports a “major political party” whose platform states as a “basic principle” an agenda of “intrinsic evils”. He’s telling educators and Catholic public figures to knock it off because you are complicit, intentionally or unintentionally, with an agenda to cause division in the church that is a true “menace” to religious freedom. If he speaks for the Pope correctly, than the bishops are not speaking clearly and conclusively enough in the Faithful Citizenship … so good thing they don’t read it from the pulpit if it obfuscates the message from the Pope.
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Ok, I cannot let this one go. I repeat from a previous post, since you still have not read carefully:

Since you bring up Pope Benedict XVI, I’ll be happy to bring him up too. You will not mind me re-quoting him from the time when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger, the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (emphases added):

“[N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.]”

Link:
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

(We have discussed ‘proportionate reasons’ already.)

So yes, you can vote for a pro-choice candidate without supporting the intrinsic evil that he stands for. Says the Pope.
 
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