Papal nuncio: Catholic division undermines religious freedom

[Prodigal_Son1]

Here’s the thing. I don’t think the Church can come out and say, “Don’t vote for Obama (or any candidate)”. Therefore, Catholics are required to take what they read and hear from leaders of the Church ****in addition ****to Church teaching on various matters such as abortion, the death penalty, social justice, war, etc etc. and make a good choice.

In my mind, if our leaders are mentioning other “grave” reasons then they are alluding to grave matters/sins mentioned in Church teaching…not our own definition of what constitutes a “grave” matter. They aren’t saying, hey you can ignore a candidate’s view on abortion as long as you personally have other grave moral concerns.

Hope that made sense.

According to many Catholics, that’s not working out.

 

[Mickey]

I am not attacking the Papal nuncio and I am not attacking my Church. I believe you know that .

No, I do not know that. You have been sowing division and questioning your Church’s teaching on this for months now. It is very odd.

I find your comments confusing.

I find your comments confusing.

I see division and am speaking out about it.

You see division where there is none. That is what I am talking about. The Papal Nuncio has clarified this…and you cannot accept it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No, I do not know that. You have been sowing division and questioning your Church’s teaching on this for months now. It is very odd.
I find your comments confusing.
You see division where there is none. That is what I am talking about. The Papal Nuncio has clarified this…and you cannot accept it.

I have questioned division, which I thought was clear enough not to be confused with ‘sowing’, or questioning Church teaching. I apologize, but really don’t know how to make it any clearer for you.

Do you accept all that the men of the Catholic Church teach?

I provided an article that discussed division, or disagreements between the bishops. I linked this article in an effort to try and localize a part of the problem the Papal nuncio addresses. Archbishop Chaput stated the document was ‘not very clear’ and Cardinal Burke called it ‘confusion’. The Papal nuncio doesn’t refer the Faithful Citizenship at all.

But thanks for your ‘concern’ of me not being able to accept something, even though you are mistaken.

 

[Mickey]

According to many Catholics, that’s not working out.

According to many Catholics?!?

I can recall as a Catholic years ago…how other Catholics would insist that the Church’s teaching on abortion and contraception were antiquated and not ncessary to follow. I used to argue until I was blue in the face. Then I would show all the doctrinal teaching throughout the centuries from the Church councils to the writings of the Holy Church Fathers. It did not matter…they would tell me that Father X…or bishop Y…told them otherwise.

Can’t you see?!? It does not matter if you hear a dissenting voice…even if it is within the clergy. Follow the teachings of your Church. Read the doctrine. Study the Councils and the Church Fathers.

Listen to the Church and follow your conscience!

Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

 

[Mickey]

Do you accept all that the men of the Catholic Church teach?

I am bound to obedience to my spiritual father.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

According to many Catholics?!?

Yes. Don’t you know that Catholics were split, almost evenly in this past election?

I can recall as a Catholic years ago…how other Catholics would insist that the Church’s teaching on abortion and contraception were antiquated and not ncessary to follow. I used to argue until I was blue in the face. Then I would show all the doctrinal teaching throughout the centuries from the Church councils to the writings of the Holy Church Fathers. It did not matter…they would tell me that Father X…or bishop Y…told them otherwise.

I haven’t run into pro choice Catholics, and don’t know of any that promote the use of contraceptives, so I can’t speak on your experience.

Can’t you see?!? It does not matter if you hear a dissenting voice…even if it is within the clergy. Follow the teachings of your Church. Read the doctrine. Study the Councils and the Church Fathers.

I would not go so far as to call any of the clergy dissenting, especially the Bishops we’re discussing right now.

Listen to the Church and follow your conscience!

I do, and have.

Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

 

[Mickey]

I haven’t run into pro choice Catholics, and don’t know of any that promote the use of contraceptives, so I can’t speak on your experience.

Really? I have heard the number may be near 50%.

I think it was Deacon Gary that gave you the best advice. Be an example to your fellow Catholics. Help promote the pro-life and pro sacramental marriage message. Don’t let yourself be consumed with passion over this issue.

 

[Mickey]

Yes. Don’t you know that Catholics were split, almost evenly in this past election?

Catholics in name only?..or serious Catholics?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Really? I have heard the number may be near 50%.

Semantics, almost even is actually close to 50%.

I think it was Deacon Gary that gave you the best advice. Be an example to your fellow Catholics. Help promote the pro-life and pro sacramental marriage message. Don’t let yourself be consumed with passion over this issue.

It’s easy to give advice, anonymously, to someone you know nothing about, and it can place you in a position of being mistaken.

I am very pro life and pro sacramental marriage. However, I think it very important to promote all His teachings honestly and with charity. Anything less can diminished His truth, in the minds of those you promote it with.

 

[Mickey]

It’s easy to give advice, anonymously, to someone you know nothing about, and it can place you in a position of being mistaken.

Or it can be spot on.

I am very pro life and pro sacramental marriage. However, I think it very important to promote all His teachings honestly and with charity. Anything less can diminished His truth, in the minds of those you promote it with.

Wonderful! Now you can rest easy and promote the teachings of your Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Catholics in name only?..or serious Catholics?

In my opinion, there’s not such thing as ‘Catholics in name only’. While some Catholics are in full communion with the Church, some may not be, but they are none the less Catholics. I have no reason to doubt anyone’s faith and would avoid labeling anyone as such, because I would fear it would ‘sow division’ and possibly drive them away from the truth they need.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Or it can be spot on.

It could be, but in this instance you would be mistaken.

Wonderful! Now you can rest easy and promote the teachings of your Church.

I have been and do.

As St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times; when necessary, use words.”

 

[Mickey]

In my opinion, there’s not such thing as ‘Catholics in name only’. While some Catholics are in full communion with the Church, some may not be, but they are none the less Catholics. I have no reason to doubt anyone’s faith and would avoid labeling anyone as such, because I would fear it would ‘sow division’ and possibly drive them away from the truth they need.

You and I both know that there are those who are born into Catholicism and are dissenters all their lives. One can pray that they have a metanoia…but sadly…these exit polls are taken which include those who do not know or follow any of the Catholic Church’s teachings…and then the media uses this data as a wedge.

I believe it was discussed on another thread about Pope Benedicts (Cardinal Ratzinger’s) comments about a smaller and more devout Church being a brighter light to ther world.

 

[ProVobis]

Am I partisan because I fight against Obama? He stands for evil, just like his party’s platform. This is what the Church says is intrinsic evil and cannot be supported. This makes me partisan?

You could be if we imagine Obama to be the Republican and Romney the Democrat and you would still feel any Democrat is intrinsically evil. Just saying.

NB I said “could be.”

 

[BroomWagon]

Great posts MIckey,

It’s refreshing to read what someone says who is honest in what he says.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You and I both know that there are those who are born into Catholicism and are dissenters all their lives. One can pray that they have a metanoia…but sadly…these exit polls are taken which include those who do not know or follow any of the Catholic Church’s teachings…and then the media uses this data as a wedge.

I believe it was discussed on another thread about Pope Benedicts (Cardinal Ratzinger’s) comments about a smaller and more devout Church being a brighter light to ther world.

None of us can help what the media does. I cannot see into another person heart and know their intent. The Church teaches that some can have less than a well faith formed conscience, through no fault of their own. This is something else no other person can see.

Ahh, I would have to disagree with an interpretation of Pope Benedict’s comments meaning the Church should become smaller, especially in light of his teachings on conversions of the heart, and to evangelize everyone; if that’s what you mean.

 

[Mickey]

It could be, but in this instance you would be mistaken.

If you say so…but after reading mutitudes of your posts obssessing about this issue…it seems to me that the good Deacon is correct.

I have been and do.

Great! Carry on.

As St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times; when necessary, use words.”

That quote is often attributed to St Francis…but it is likely that he did not say it. It does however, capture the Franciscan spirit. I think the quote surfaced a couple centuries after his death. But he comes close in Chapter XVII of his Rule of 1221:

“Let all the brothers, however, preach by their deeds.”

 

[Mickey]

Ahh, I would have to disagree with an interpretation of Pope Benedict’s comments meaning the Church should become smaller, especially in light of his teachings on conversions of the heart, and to evangelize everyone; if that’s what you mean.

I am alluding to this seeminglly prophetic comment:

“The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members.

“It will be hard-going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek . . . The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution – when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain . . . But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.

And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already with Gobel, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you say so…but after reading mutitudes of your posts obssessing about this issue…it seems to me that the good Deacon is correct.

I can assure you of what is in my heart. There is only one who can see in all our hearts.

That quote is often attributed to St Francis…but it is likely that he did not say it. It does however, capture the Franciscan spirit. I think the quote surfaced a couple centuries after his death. But he coomes cllose in Chapter XVII of his Rule of 1221:

“Let all the brothers, however, preach by their deeds.”

Likely, is good enough for me. The saying speaks volumes, and coincides with the great commission, so I don’t think it would cause anyone any problems to live by those words, no matter how one phrases it exactly.

 

[Mickey]

I can assure you of what is in my heart. There is only one who can see in all our hearts.

There were also great saints and Church fathers who had the gift of reading hearts. Of course you and I cannot…we can only know men by their fruits.

By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Likely, is good enough for me. The saying speaks volumes, and coincides with the great commission, so I don’t think it would cause anyone any problems to live by those words, no matter how one phrases it exactly.

The great hesychasts barely spoke at all.