Papal nuncio: Catholic division undermines religious freedom

[Prodigal_Son1]

Bishop Lennon also said

Bishop Joseph Martino said

Diocese released statement which said Bishop Martino was ‘concerned because of the confusion and public misrepresentations about Catholic teaching on the life issues’

Vatican prelate Archbishop Raymond Burke said Faithful Citizenship is party to blame for the election of the ‘most pro abortion president’ in US history. He said Faithful citizenship ‘led to confusion’ among Catholics

Bishop Vasa who contributed to Faithful Citizenship document has rejected the spin that the document excuses people to vote for a pro abortion candidate

Doubt you can think of another USSCB comment which has had so many Bishops have to clarify

Bishop Lennon was quite clear about those claiming to be ‘Right to Life’ narrowing the scope of Catholic teaching for their own special interests. Why did he say that?

So those of us that have a Bishop we can align with are just blessed and ‘oh well, too bad for the rest of you?’ Look up the Florida Bishops voter’s guide, and then understand our dioceses did not mail a guide to the people in this dioceses, and there were no ‘election’ homilies at our Church.

The Church has an obligation to speak clearly to us, so that we all understand, and not just half that claim they do.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No doubt. I suppose they are trying to cushion their conscience.

I can’t believe any Christian could possibly justify voting for this man and his intrinsically evil agenda.

I didn’t vote for him and I am pro life, however I have to keep repeating that to you. What is that cushioning?

Come on people. If there’s a problem, why not try to resolve it before anymore elections? This debate has been going on since 2004, when Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the NB. Some seem content with, or even determined to maintain, a division of our Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This whole thing bothers me. If the fate of our immortal souls really do depend on who we vote for why don’t the say to heck with tax exemption, vote for x or don’t vote for y? They were very clear with how we should vote on the “Death with Dignity Act” (not that there was any question).

After work I prayed about it. I told God that these statements by church leaders don’t feel right and I asked Him to let me know what to do. I’d vote republican for the rest of my life if He truly wants me to. Right after, a homeless guy asked for change and I gave him a dollar. He laughed and said that it was his first donation of the night and the largest so far. That made me smile. I consider that prayer answered.

If it is a tax exemption, it blows the no other issue argument out of the water.

The Church has an obligation to lead us clearly. There are no other teachings as debated as this.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Doubt you can think of another USSCB comment which has had so many Bishops have to clarify

Three Bishops are ‘so many’? Numbers don’t really matter. What matters is the differences. Name another teaching that Catholics receive mixed messages on? We need a unified message or, sadly, neither side can claim to be correct.

 

[Mickey]

I believe you’ve seen my beliefs which are pro life and from conception, when two living cells merge. Honestly, why did you ask that question?

Because you continually and consistently question what your Church is teaching by setting forth your accusations of lack of clarity.

I don’t believe millions of Catholics intentionally went against Church teaching.

Why not?

To be perfectly honest, the Church is obligated to teach us clearly, so that everyone can understand.

And they have taught this clearly.

 

[Mickey]

This whole thing bothers me. If the fate of our immortal souls really do depend on who we vote for why don’t the say to heck with tax exemption, vote for x or don’t vote for y?

Because we have free will. They can tell you what issues are intrinsically evil, but it is up to the individual with a properly formed conscience.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Because you continually and consistently question what your Church is teaching by setting forth your accusations of lack of clarity.
Why not?
And they have taught this clearly.

Actually, I’m sick of what I’m seeing on these forums. Catholics saying the cruelest things against other Catholics, without any appearances of regards whatsoever. I can see the vagueness in the language. Before the election, there were articles that referenced the vagueness of the language as being the reason the Bishops held an assembly. That assembly shows a lack of clarity.

I think to generalize millions of Catholics does not give any room for the possibility of real errs.

It’s only clear to some. All people are not the same intellect, of the same spirituality, or the same in being informed.

 

[spartan_cop]

Where are all the smart remarks from liberal commentators on here?

Crying and out “saving the world” by forcing everyone to accept and believe the way they do.

 

[spartan_cop]

I believe you’ve seen my beliefs which are pro life and from conception, when two living cells merge. Honestly, why did you ask that question?

I don’t believe millions of Catholics intentionally went against Church teaching. Too many are using phrases like, ‘they went against Church, and God.’ too often, without any attempts to really understand the problem.

To be perfectly honest, the Church is obligated to teach us clearly, so that everyone can understand. What other teachings are of such a great debate as this voting guide’s language? None.

It is also the obligation of every Catholic to study his/her faith especially if a question comes up in their conscious! This country is very polarized at one point I assume every person with some logic in their conscious would question their beliefs at at least make an attempt at to ask why they believe what they believe. If that has been done but they were misinformed by those responsible for their souls then they are not at fault. But if they refused to find out “what is truth” then no one else is to blame but themselves.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It is also the obligation of every Catholic to study his/her faith especially if a question comes up in their conscious! This country is very polarized at one point I assume every person with some logic in their conscious would question their beliefs at at least make an attempt at to ask why they believe what they believe. If that has been done but they were misinformed by those responsible for their souls then they are not at fault. But if they refused to find out “what is truth” then no one else is to blame but themselves.

So, prior to this election when the Bishops met in an assembly specifically to discuss a vagueness in the Faithful Citizenship, as it was in 2007, and then release it without any changes, we should still expect a better outcome than 4 years ago?

They are responsible for all Catholics. They recognize a problem from all the debates and the outcome of the elections in 2008, and revisit a targeted problem. That speaks against a clarity for all. Then they release it unchanged.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It is also the obligation of every Catholic to study his/her faith especially if a question comes up in their conscious!

Look up the Florida Bishops version of the Faithful Citizenship. I had to look it up. The diocese I’m in didn’t send anything out prior to the election. We had no pre election homilies. I searched and searched and found the clergy split.

Why doesn’t the Church speak so as there would be absolutely no mistake?

The very language suggests that some can vote for a politician that supports intrinsic evils as long as they don’t vote to support the intrinsic evil itself.

People rely on the outspoken Bishops, but how many of them were there? There are over 170 Bishops in this country. There weren’t a dozen outspoken. Why?

There are no other Catholic teachings that have such debate around them.

 

[Mickey]

I didn’t vote for him and I am pro life,

I was specifically referring to those who voted for Obama.

This debate has been going on since 2004, when Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the NB. Some seem content with, or even determined to maintain, a division of our Church.

But there is no debate. Some people are latching onto a footnote written by Cardinal Ratzinger in an attempt to justify voting for pro-death politicians. That’s all. The Catholic Church is very clear about it. I am sorry that you remain confused. I am not Catholic and it is very clear to me.

 

[Mickey]

Actually, I’m sick of what I’m seeing on these forums.

Same here… Christians trying to justify voting for a man who champions abortion on demand, infanticide, euthanasia, homosexual "marriage, and the funding of abortion mills. It is beyond my comprehension.

I think to generalize millions of Catholics does not give any room for the possibility of real errs.

This very thread offers a statement from the Papal nuncio which repeats the teaching loud and clear. Why do you remain confused?

It’s only clear to some. All people are not the same intellect, of the same spirituality, or the same in being informed.

But how difficult is it to see that we should not be supporting a man who champions abortion on demand, infanticide, euthanasia, homosexual "marriage, and the funding of abortion mills?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Some people are latching onto a footnote written by Cardinal Ratzinger in an attempt to justify voting for pro-death politicians. That’s all. The Catholic Church is very clear about it. I am sorry that you remain confused. I am not Catholic and it is very clear to me.

Some of those ‘some people’ were the Bishops. After the last election, there was discussion of the ‘vagueness’ of the language. Prior to this election, the subject came up again and there was an assembly of Bishops that met and discussed possible changes, to remove any ‘vagueness’. They released it unchanged.

I am not confused. I want any excuses removed for those people who like to use comments like, ‘people turned their backs on the Church and God,’ or ‘those people need to repent.’ All Catholics are brothers and sisters. It’s not right to say things like that and seems similar to the self righteousness of the Pharisees. No one can see the intent of other people’s hearts. It’s the intent that is sinful. Those people are not saying they support the intrinsic evil itself. That’s why I don’t believe millions have deliberately gone against Church teaching. Clarity is needed, once and for all. There are no other teachings that divide the Church like politics does. We need the same clarity.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Same here… Christians trying to justify voting for a man who champions abortion on demand, infanticide, euthanasia, homosexual "marriage, and the funding of abortion mills. It is beyond my comprehension.

I’m speaking of the attacks and condemnation of other Catholics, without knowing the intent of other people’s hearts.
T

his very thread offers a statement from the Papal nuncio which repeats the teaching loud and clear. Why do you remain confused?

I do not put people on ignore; however, I will not be responding to your posts anymore. You’ve questioned me once too many times and I am genuinely seeking answers.

But how difficult is it to see that we should not be supporting a man who champions abortion on demand, infanticide, euthanasia, homosexual "marriage, and the funding of abortion mills?

People are not all the same. It’s that simple.

Our discussion is over.

God Bless,

 

[BroomWagon]

Right now, for reasons, I can’t make a Morning Sunday Mass in Latin near me, it’s some miles away, but when I have been able to, it’s like going back in time and picking up a Baltimore Cathechism makes me feel like that. We have to remember, we are Catholics after all. Respectfully!

 

[Mickey]

They released it unchanged.

Did you ever think it was because…they realized it was not vague?

It’s not right to say things like that and seems similar to the self righteousness of the Pharisees.

You are mistaken…and you had better be careful of false accusations. What I have seen is people stating that someone should repent and seek the sacrament of confession if they have voted for someone who supports abortion on demand and infanticide. There is nothing wrong with such a statement. Love the sinner hate the sin.

Those people are not saying they support the intrinsic evil itself.

How can you possibly vote for someone who champions intrinsic evil…and then justify it by saying you don’t support that intrinsic evil.

Clarity is needed, once and for all.

The clarity is there.

 

[Mickey]

I’m speaking of the attacks and condemnation of other Catholics, without knowing the intent of other people’s hearts.

I see condemnation of the sin…not the sinner.

I do not put people on ignore; however, I will not be responding to your posts anymore.

That is fine. Many posters here have answered your questions quite clearly and sufficiently.

People are not all the same. It’s that simple.

There are those trying to justify voting for someone who champions intrinsic evil and you say, “People are not all the same?”

Our discussion is over.

So be it. I have told you many times to attempt writing a letter to the Vatican about this issue…but you never once responded to that suggestion. I pray that you attain resolution to this issue in your heart.

 

[spartan_cop]

Look up the Florida Bishops version of the Faithful Citizenship. I had to look it up. The diocese I’m in didn’t send anything out prior to the election. We had no pre election homilies. I searched and searched and found the clergy split.

Why doesn’t the Church speak so as there would be absolutely no mistake?

The very language suggests that some can vote for a politician that supports intrinsic evils as long as they don’t vote to support the intrinsic evil itself.

People rely on the outspoken Bishops, but how many of them were there? There are over 170 Bishops in this country. There weren’t a dozen outspoken. Why?

There are no other Catholic teachings that have such debate around them.

I agree with you that the Bishops have failed in passing on the true faith to the flock. Remember we are sheep and always in need of a good Shepperd. This has been lacking in the West. But what happens whenever people start to realize that some of our Bishops have failed us and those few begin to call them out? Those people are then scourged by the other sheep and Bishops. They are seen as “disobedient” or worst.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Here’s a prominent Catholic who agreed the Faithful Citizenship was confusing and that there was a lack of clear moral guidance from the hierarchy. This was from the 2008 election.

Archbishop Burke says bishops’ document helped Obama campaign

In an exclusive interview with LifeSite News, Archbishop Raymond Burke has charged that the US bishops’ document on voting responsibilities, Faithful Citizenship, contributed to the electoral victory of Barack Obama in last year’s presidential contest. Archbishop Burke-- who was Archbishop of St. Louis before he was called to Rome to head the Church’s top canonical court-- said that the bishops’ statement "led to confusion" by suggesting that Catholic voters might, in some circumstances, be justified in voting for a pro-abortion candidate. Those circumstances did not apply, the American prelate said, and mentioning them only clouded a straightforward moral issue. Archbishop Burke argues that the lack of clear moral guidance from the hierarchy was a contributing factor in Obama’s victory, because many Catholic voters supported the Democratic candidate.

Article dated October 4, 2012

The US bishops stick with a losing political strategy

Faithful Citizenship was itself clearly a compromise of sorts, cobbled together to maintain the peace within the bishops’ conference. The final document was not entirely satisfactory to anyone on either end of the political spectrum, nor did it prevent public disagreements among American bishops during the ensuring election year.