Papal nuncio: Catholic division undermines religious freedom

[estesbob]

You’ll find a lot of resistance against this argument because it might seem counterintuitive. But it’s good to consider anything that might reduce the number of abortions, regardless of the ways it’s done, if abortions are the focal issue.

Except the question is not strategies to reduce abortion. Thats just a distraction from the real issue-can a Catholic support a candidate who supports unrestricted abortion on demand?

A candidates support of unrestricted abortion on demand does not happen in a vacuum. it tells us a lot about their moral fiber and their worldview. For example do you want someone in charge of foreign policy who believes a woman has the right to pay someone to kill her child? Would you want such a person in charge of appointing those who run HHS?

Abortion is not a single issue. The right to life is RIGHT from which all other rights flow. You can not support abortion without trampling on all other rights.

 

[ProVobis]

Precisely.

But if we’re going to cloud the abortion issue with other issues, we’ll never solve the abortion crisis; that is not to say, however, the other issues aren’t important. As a Catholic and a believer in Cicero’s moral code, I realize that all too well.

Focus, man, focus!

 

[Mickey]

A candidate who supports unrestricted abortion on demand is so morally flawed no one, should support them. The idea that they can support this slaughter because they are benevolent or compassionate or enlightened in other areas is specious and is no way supported by the Church.

…to re-elect Obama demonstrates that our country is on a willfully determined path to destruction. It’s not just gullibility, and it’s not just stupidity, it’s knowledgeably chosen. It’s not a matter of economics or policies; it’s a matter of voting for sin and against God. I agree with Fr Johannes Jacobse, that the fundamental worldview has changed: “Secular anthropology had defeated Christian anthropology.” Voters have sold their souls to the Devil (or rather, the child-sacrificing idol Moloch). Fr Jacobse concluded, sorrowfully, “The Obama win told me that the moral decline of America was much greater than I dared face. America is no longer what I knew it to be and what I hoped could be restored, and all the years of fighting has handed me a defeat. We are one step closer to the catacombs and the call to recover the prophetic dimension of the Gospel is ringing clearer.”
Monk Martin (St Herman of Alaska Monastery)

 

[wynnejj]

Precisely.

But if we’re going to cloud the abortion issue with other issues, we’ll never solve the abortion crisis; that is not to say, however, the other issues aren’t important. As a Catholic, I realize that all too well.

Focus, man, focus!

The abortion issue is just a catalyst for the much more important Catholic crisis, just as widespread acceptance of contraception within Christian society is just a catalyst for the sanctity of life & marriage issues throughout our western democracies. We need to focus all right. We need to focus on “intrinsic evils”.

 

[Al_Moritz]

You’ll find a lot of resistance against this argument because it might seem counterintuitive. But it’s good to consider anything that might reduce the number of abortions, regardless of the ways it’s done, if abortions are the focal issue. If it’s all about laws or what gets your party into power, all bets are off.

Thanks for the acknowledgement of my point. That I would find fierce resistance from the Tea Party Catholics here was to be expected. I would have been hugely surprised if it would have been otherwise.

 

[Faithdancer]

I vote this best paragraph of this thread.

It is indeed very well phrased and I agree completely. The argument that a candidate can be forgiven his support of abortion-on-demand because in some roundabout way, his other policies might reduce the abortion rate is very flawed.

Punish those who perform abortions (but not the mothers) and we will see the abortion rate drop, period.

 

[ishii]

Thanks for the acknowledgement of my point. That I would find fierce resistance from the Tea Party Catholics here was to be expected. I would have been hugely surprised if it would have been otherwise.

What is a tea party Catholic?

 

[ishii]

Watergate was a distraction but if that’s all people remember about Nixon, then it’s no wonder the Repubs get so much glory. I’m referring to his three appointees to the Supreme Court who made Roe vs Wade the law of the land.

And if you think it can be simply overturned, then I suggest these reads.

meehanreports.com/blackmun.html

legalaffairs.org/issues/May-June-2005/feature_saleton_mayjun05.msp

A lot of opinions have to be delved through.

You are being disengenuous and misleading - and like a broken record. - Abortion wasn’t the hot button national issue during the Nixon era as it is now. Supreme court justices weren’t vetted by either side on the abortion issue in front of the cameras. There was no “litmus test”. There was no “religious right”. You are mixing/conflating two eras to simply bash Republicans and lay the blame on the Republican party of today for the reality of legal abortion. It is not the actions of Republicans today that keep abortion legal, but Democrats, supported by so many Democrat catholics.

Ishii

 

[wynnejj]

What is a tea party Catholic?

It’s an amorphous group of Catholics who come out whenever they’re teased.
I’m a tea party Catholic because I love a good tease.

 

[ishii]

It’s an amorphous group of Catholics who come out whenever they’re teased.
I’m a tea party Catholic because I love a good tease.

What is a tea party catholic? I still don’t understand - please explain.

Ishii

 

[wynnejj]

What is a tea party catholic? I still don’t understand - please explain.

Ishii

You know, you beat me to the “You are being disingenuous and misleading …” post, but I have to ask you the same question since you are seem to be fairly knowledgeable about politics and must be aware of the Tea Party … which to my understanding is just a coalition of politically-minded “consumer report” watchdogs whose overall theme is less taxation, less spending, less government. But mostly it is a pejorative of the left to suggest that common folk know nothing and shouldn’t make judgements on the enlightened left about common sense issues.

Hey since we’re digressing so wildly … Did you hear the new Papal Nuncio formula …

Social Justice Cure = Indecipherable Formula + Ambiguous Foundation + Unsuccessful

(Sorry, didn’t mean to digress …)

 

[ishii]

You know, you beat me to the “You are being disingenuous and misleading …” post, but I have to ask you the same question since you are seem to be fairly knowledgeable about politics and must be aware of the Tea Party … which to my understanding is just a coalition of politically-minded “consumer report” watchdogs whose overall theme is less taxation, less spending, less government. But mostly it is a pejorative of the left to suggest that common folk know nothing and shouldn’t make judgements on the enlightened left about common sense issues.

Hey since we’re digressing so wildly … Did you hear the new Papal Nuncio formula …

Social Justice Cure = Indecipherable Formula + Ambiguous Foundation + Unsuccessful

(Sorry, didn’t mean to digress …)

Sometimes the subtleties of sophisticated posters such as yourself is lost on folks like me…

I view the Tea Party as a group that is concerned about fiscal issues which has helped unseat some of the old guard establishment Republicans like Richard Lugar who were career politicians that didn’t get it - they seemed to prefer to “get along” with the big spenders rather than challenge them. Overall, I think the Tea Party has been a positive force in politics that continues. They have successfully brought the focus on spending and pointed out that while most Democrats are fiscally irresponsible, many Republicans are too. Hard to take care of the poor, provide a safety net when the government is bankrupt - where is the compassion in that?

Ishii

 

[wynnejj]

Sometimes the subtleties of sophisticated posters such as yourself is lost on folks like me…

I view the Tea Party as a group that is concerned about fiscal issues which has helped unseat some of the old guard establishment Republicans like Richard Lugar who were career politicians that didn’t get it - they seemed to prefer to “get along” with the big spenders rather than challenge them. Overall, I think the Tea Party has been a positive force in politics that continues. They have successfully brought the focus on spending and pointed out that while most Democrats are fiscally irresponsible, many Republicans are too. Hard to take care of the poor, provide a safety net when the government is bankrupt - where is the compassion in that?

Ishii

It’s all about fuel to air ratio, me to we ratio, revenue to benefits … can’t borrow for charity and foot the bill on our children that we don’t have. Morality = Prosperity and Babies = Posterity.

 

[ishii]

It’s all about fuel to air ratio, me to we ratio, revenue to benefits … can’t borrow for charity and foot the bill on our children that we don’t have. Morality = Prosperity and Babies = Posterity.

Hey I like the sound of that - "morality = prosperity and babies = prosperity. But once again, I don’t understand exactly what you mean. Demographically speaking, the countries that are no longer having very many babies are facing big problems with funding things like safety net/pensions, etc. It seems as societies get more prosperous, the desire to have children decreases because they are expensive and limit the ability to buy lots of things on black friday, have 2 suv’s, McMansion, etc. Consumerism/materialism lives.

Ishii

 

[wynnejj]

Hey I like the sound of that - "morality = prosperity and babies = prosperity. But once again, I don’t understand exactly what you mean. Demographically speaking, the countries that are no longer having very many babies are facing big problems with funding things like safety net/pensions, etc. It seems as societies get more prosperous, the desire to have children decreases because they are expensive and limit the ability to buy lots of things on black friday, have 2 suv’s, McMansion, etc. Consumerism/materialism lives.

Ishii

Babies = Posterity … that is, future generations.

Our safety net formulas tend to leave to posterity the task of covering our posteriors today.

Ironic isn’t it? We tax the future without representation and we kill our unborn brothers today because they have no representation.

Sound like an indecipherable formula established on an ambiguous foundation that unsuccessfully relies of the social justice cure for the born, not unborn.

Moral nations tend to be prosperous nations … they’re stable, steady workforce and good family life raising basically good kids … but you need workers especially if you are going to buy now and pay later …

 

[Mickey]

That I would find fierce resistance from the Tea Party Catholics here was to be expected.

Obama-Catholics are getting resistance from knowledgeable and traditional Catholics.

 

[ishii]

Babies = Posterity … that is, future generations.

Our safety net formulas tend to leave to posterity the task of covering our posteriors today.

Ironic isn’t it? We tax the future without representation and we kill our unborn brothers today because they have no representation.

Sound like an indecipherable formula established on an ambiguous foundation that unsuccessfully relies of the social justice cure for the born, not unborn.

Moral nations tend to be prosperous nations … they’re stable, steady workforce and good family life raising basically good kids … but you need workers especially if you are going to buy now and pay later …

Just in case there is any doubt : wynnejj is brilliant. Excellent post sir.

 

[wynnejj]

Just in case there is any doubt : wynnejj is brilliant. Excellent post sir.

Aw thanks. I feel like the Scarecrow in Oz who just surprised himself.

 

[ProVobis]

Abortion wasn’t the hot button national issue during the Nixon era as it is now.

Wrong! There were massive protests afterwards. Nixon’s court did some major irreparable damage to human life and created a devastating paradigm that 40 years has failed to fix. I’m saddened that you don’t see this.

It is not the actions of Republicans today that keep abortion legal, but Democrats, supported by so many Democrat catholics.

We can argue till the cows come home about whether illegalizing abortion will fix the problem or not, or whether we should squander 40 more years of our hard-earned money on political races, but it’s NOT wrong to allocate those same resources and help pregnant women in distress during pregnancy and ensuring her some medical help afterwards as well. And if government assistance (socialism) is the only way to discourage some of the abortions, then so be it. What’s our ultimate objective, anyway?

 

[wynnejj]

What’s our ultimate objective, anyway?

Murder charge for abortion providers.
Let’s make abortion unsafe, illegal & inaccessible to everyone?
Let’s make biological father’s financially responsible for child support?