Papal nuncio: Catholic division undermines religious freedom

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Show me a document from the magisterium that lists out proportionate reasons, and that lists disproportanate reasons.
I doubt there would ever be such a list. It is basic moral theology. Proportionate cannot be totally subjective as you would like. If that were so then there would be no need for any teaching from the Church.

One could simply say I think this is proportionate therefore it is. If that is true then why bother with anything any bishop says as any reason is sufficient and licit.

The entire exercise is totally subjective.
 
Again you ignore every member of the magesterium who disagree with you and depend of your flawed interpretation of a one line footnote to a letter that contradicts your position. Surely you can find at least one member of the magesterium that mentions the reasons you claim are proportionate?
I would like an answer to that point as well.
 
I doubt there would ever be such a list. It is basic moral theology. Proportionate cannot be totally subjective as you would like. If that were so then there would be no need for any teaching from the Church.

One could simply say I think this is proportionate therefore it is. If that is true then why bother with anything any bishop says as any reason is sufficient and licit.

The entire exercise is totally subjective.
Right-they would have us believe Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a long, reasoned letter and added a footnote saying " ignore what i said if you dont agree with it."
 
Right-they would have us believe Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a long, reasoned letter and added a footnote saying " ignore what i said if you dont agree with it."
Plus the letter was addressed to other bishops. That would seem to imply he expected them to have a sophisticated understanding of the Church’s moral theology tradition.
 
I remember when Cardinal Dolan was on the O’Reilly Factor back in the spring I believe and the Cardinal said that people don’t like it when the Church says “Vote for this person or don’t vote for that person” because they consider it strictly a personal choice. I think this is the problem with those who insist on voting for Obama. It doesn’t matter how evil Pres. Obama’s policies are, nobody is going to tell them how to vote, not even God himself. We are truly seeing an apostasy of faith in our lifetime.
 
And yet another circle. **Actually, the burden is not on me. **We have certain absolutes given to us by the Church, such as: artificial birth control is forbidden, Baptism is required, etc. When the Chuch allows us to discern our decisions using a proper formation of conscience, there is no absolute list. There is no absolute list of ‘grave/serious’ reasons to use NFP, though there is a list of things to consider when coming to a decision to use it. Likewise, there is no absolute list of proportionate/disproportionate reasons when voting. Instead, there is a list to consider when voting, and the US Bishops collectively and deliberately did not give a list of proportionate/disproportionate reasons. So the burden is not on me at all. You yourself can’t come up with such a list, so trying to deflect the responsibility on me doesn’t make either one of us wrong/right. It makes us both consider a list provided, in a document provided, to help us form our conscience.
Um, yes it is (and every other poster that agrees with you).

There is an absolute list of grave sins. Does your proportionate reasons for voting for Obama fall in line with other grave sins per Church teaching? If so, show me quotes from official church documents, the catechism, etc that support those reasons as being anywhere near as grave as abortion. Until I see that, I’m not buying those proportionate reasons.
 
This is my answer: The ability of citizens to feed, clothe, obtain healthcare, and house themselves (especially those citizens who are old, young, disabled or sick) is just as important. It really doesn’t matter if you agree or not, because in the end, you’ll vote with your conscience and I will vote for mine.
Where are the Church documents/teachings that say that the government not providing these things is a grave sin…tantamount to the sin of abortion?
 
Where are the Church documents/teachings that say that the government not providing these things is a grave sin…tantamount to the sin of abortion?
Actually it’s not the Church who first taught that abortion was evil. Mosaic Law and Cicero already did that before the Church was even formed. The Church has, however, offered ways to counter this and all other evils.
 
I doubt there would ever be such a list. It is basic moral theology. Proportionate cannot be totally subjective as you would like. If that were so then there would be no need for any teaching from the Church.

One could simply say I think this is proportionate therefore it is. If that is true then why bother with anything any bishop says as any reason is sufficient and licit.

The entire exercise is totally subjective.
There is a list of what are not and what are proportinate reasons and advice provided by Bishops, Priests and lay Catholics:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9645449&postcount=150
 
I remember when Cardinal Dolan was on the O’Reilly Factor back in the spring I believe and the Cardinal said that people don’t like it when the Church says “Vote for this person or don’t vote for that person” because they consider it strictly a personal choice. I think this is the problem with those who insist on voting for Obama. It doesn’t matter how evil Pres. Obama’s policies are, nobody is going to tell them how to vote, not even God himself. We are truly seeing an apostasy of faith in our lifetime.
Jesus said that the goats would be on the left.
 
There is a list of what are not and what are proportinate reasons and advice provided by Bishops, Priests and lay Catholics:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9645449&postcount=150
Yes, while I have posted those links myself that is not what the poster wants. She is looking for a magisterial document, like an encyclical , that is a formal list. I doubt the Pope will be offering one.

My point is that such a list really would be relative to each election. That means that the underlying moral premise must be constant regardless of the time.
 
Jesus said that the goats would be on the left.
He did in fact:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And he will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took me in. I was naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you visited me; I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ Then he will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave me no food; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
  • Matthew 25:31-46
 
Yes, while I have posted those links myself that is not what the poster wants. She is looking for a magisterial document, like an encyclical , that is a formal list. I doubt the Pope will be offering one.

My point is that such a list really would be relative to each election. That means that the underlying moral premise must be constant regardless of the time.
Then she should look for documents and Church teaching on sin and which sins involve grave matter. I doubt she will find her proportionate reasons included in/on par with the teachings about grave sins such as abortion.
 
Then she should look for documents and Church teaching on sin and which sins involve grave matter. I doubt she will find her proportionate reasons included in/on par with the teachings about grave sins such as abortion.
My position is that voters that make excuses for voting for the greater pro abortion candidate must not really hold abortion for the horrid evil it really is.
 
To believe that ‘right to abortion’ is a ‘natural right’ is in NO way pro-abortion, just as giving humans free-will to choose between good and evil, is in NO way pro-evil.
To kill someone is a “natural right?” Curtailing to act on our choices is one of the purposes of law.
 
I don’t know you and I’ve never named any individual an Obama-hater.

Despite the likes and dislikes and impressions of the likes of you, America will progress and move forward under Obama’s Presidency.
“Forward,” but in what direction? You accept his goals as good ones. I don’t.
 
Even though most of you guys have given me hours of hilarity, I’m going to cease posting on this thread. There’s just so many times you can be pulled into a loop of tiresome arguing. :yawn: But I do have a few parting words.

For all of you who think that I am “pro-abortion” or “pro-death”, you’re right. I’ve tried to deny it, but since you felt so jubilant to call me “pro-abortion”, I’ll let you believe anything that you want to believe. Anything I say doesn’t matter to you anyway, does it? Now I wouldn’t want to spoil your Saturnalia—ooops—Christmas, so yes, I am a baby-killer. :tiphat:

For those of you who believe that I am under the spell of Satan, I guess you found me out. What gave me away? It was the “Hail, Satan!” in my signature, wasn’t it? :bowdown: Now don’t forget, at the Final Judgment, the Evil One and I will be with the ones on the left (the goats). Gee, I can’t wait to spend eternity with my good friends Judas, Adolf and Josef. :grouphug:

Now that you know the unvarnished truth, is everybody happy? Hope this helps! (C’mon on now! I made your day, didn’t I? Admit it! There’s nothing like a good dose of self-righteousness to boost your ego, isn’t there? :yup:)

And finally, to use a poker metaphor, I’ll see your USCCB, one Cardinal Arinze and one Papal Nuncio and raise you one Saint:

“[My] true worth does not consist in what human beings think of [me]. What * really [am] consists in what God knows [me] to be." (St. John Berchmans) Very profound, don’t you think? :)*
 
I’ll also raise you one Son of God:

*Matthew * 23:1-39

Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ. He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, `If any one swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?

And you say, `If any one swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? So he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; and he who swears by the temple, swears by it and by him who dwells in it; and he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. You blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, `If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.

“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari’ah the son of Barachi’ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

“Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’"

Them there are some pretty strong words, don’tcha think? :yup: Oh, and BTW, I’d say some prayers for your immortal souls, but since you say that I am steeped in mortal sin by virtue of my vote for the POTUS, my prayers would be useless anyway. So sorry. :sad_bye:
 
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