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Lucky7
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I don’t believe God “allowed” this. Catholics allowed Obama to be re-elected, but God will right this wrong in His time and in His way.
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Prodigal_Son1
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But God allowed Pilate to have authority over Christ?
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Lucky7
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I tend to think that the authority given to Pilate that Christ refers to is that pertaining to Pilate’s title or position…not Pilate himself. It didn’t have to be Pilate per se.
Or do you think it was God’s Will for Hitler to come to power too?
I think this thread helps to better understand God’s role in this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=365148
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Prodigal_Son1
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Then the world is progressing not according to God’s plan? Our prayers for His will be done on earth as it is in heaven are not answered?
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JimG
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God does answer prayer, though not always in the way we ask.
I think it would be a mistake to blame God for every dictator, every atrocity, every loss of freedom, every Church persecution. Evil is not willed by God, but allowed. Evil occurs because of human action. If the present U.S. situation results in a continued loss of religious freedom and persecution, yes, there will be opportunity for courage and grace, as there was in the Mexican oppression of the Church in the 1920’s, which resulted in martyrdom for many. God brings good out of evil, but it is man who makes the evil.
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Lucky7
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Just because His will is done eventually doesn’t mean that our actions are what He directly willed. We put Obama in power, not God. God will bring about His Will from this, but that doesn’t mean He’s okay with our decision.
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Prodigal_Son1
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I don’t blame God and attribute His will being done is according to His will and not ours. Romans 11 speaks of unbelief, or blindness of Israel, so that others, of those times, believe.
The evils listed are as what was viewed as evils of historical Biblical times, but always followed by a ‘gift’ of God, as you point out some instances. After the holocaust, Israel became a state again.
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Rence
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That’s the beauty of it: you don’t have to buy into anything you don’t want to, and no one is asking you to.
There is no absolute list of ‘proportionate reasons’ or ‘disproportionate reasons’ for voting for one candidate over another just like there is no absolute list of ‘grave/serious’ reasons for using nfp. They are both the same: the Church gives us a list of topics to consider, and our conscience is formed by studying all of the material, and then we make a decision. Don’t “buy” it? It’s totally fine, you don’t have to buy into anything I say anymore than I have to buy into anything you say.
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Rence
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Where are Church documents saying that these are not proportionate enough? There isn’t, is there. My conscience wouldn’t allow me to discount this other things, totally ignoring them and only focusing on abortion. Don’t buy it? It’s okay because you don’t have to. And no one is asking you to.
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Rence
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Again, though respectable sources, they do not speak on behalf of the Pope or the US Bishops collectively. That means that one should consider their words carefully, but their words are not laws of the Church.
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Rence
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Those already born will. They need to be considered too. So whoever “you” you are talking about, has already been born, and yes, these things matter to them.
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Rence
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ishii
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If I voted for the grand wizard of the KKK and wore white sheets would you believe me if I said, " I’m not racist" ?
Didn’t think so. So perhaps you can understand that when you say " I voted for Obama but I’m not pro-abortion" it is met with incredulity among some posters on CAF.
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ishii
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I think there are those who think abortion is a good thing. And there are those who want to keep it legal, but don’t necessarily think its a good thing. If you say you are among the latter, then I accept that. However, a vote for Obama was a vote for the goals of Planned Parenthood, NARAL and abortion lobby. There is no getting around that.
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Lucky7
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Actually if one really reads the Catechism there are.
*2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life. *
*2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.
Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance. *
This is what the Catechism says about the *crime *of abortion and the issues you mentioned. Where does the Catechism talk about the crime of lack of healthcare, clothing, etc? Where does it talk about it being gravely contrary to moral law? It doesn’t. These are importnat issues for sure, but just reading the differences between how these two areas are described in the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *shows that one is clearly tantamount to the other.
I’m certainly not saying you should only look at abortion. However, there were other choices this election that wouldn’t have voted for a pro-abortion, pro-HHS mandate and anti-Catholic candidate. You chose to do the latter. Your’e right that my buying your rationalization doesn’t matter. I suspect however that, although your conscience is okay with this decision now, that will change.
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Tigg
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Is this the endless loop again? By your vote you would support a candidate who, by his every action, has proven he is **anti-life **in his speech and in his legislation. As the pope once said, the culture of death has risen against Christ Himself. It is chilling to me that society (especially Catholics) no longer have any fear of the Lord, and just as bad, would justify it by their subjective mindset that the killing of the unborn is secondary to the needs of the poor.
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Lapey
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Do you really think today’s world is the result or the “playing out” of God’s plan? That’s like saying God planned for Adam and Eve to disobey Him. He knows all, He gave free will; He doesn’t lead us to make wrong decisions but allows them because of His infinite love for us.
Pilate had no power over Jesus, except what God allowed.
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wynnejj
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Reading your post, it is clear that you do not mean the word “tantamount” = equivalent.
(Use the force, young Jedi. Don’t get pulled to the Dark Side.
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JMJSHJ
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Show me a document from a Pope that shows that affordable health care and poverty are as serious or proportionate to Abortion? There have been many documents from many Pope’s attesting to the gravity of abortion but I haven’t found any.
Cardinal Burke’s teachings on abortion are more binding on the faithful than any USCCB document.
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Lapey
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True. God’s will can and is done within the worst of times. Google Maximilian Kolbe and see what good God accomplished there in Auschwitz. It is the salvation of souls; the supreme law of the Church, canon 1752.
Who is truly at risk in the act of abortion? Is it the child? Or is it every free thinking adult who participated, no matter how small the role which he/she played?
If we truly believe in the eternal Kingdom of God, and our opportunity to live there with Him, this is the way we must look at this atrocity.
There are good and honest people on both sides of this argument, and visa versa. I guess the question that needs to be answered is which side or we truly on, or are we more loyal to the republican candidate/democrat candidate, or are we more loyal to God’s message and mission?
If we as a society continue to endorse those who continue the support of the right to choose death for innocents, we as a society will be lost.
We have to think bigger than parties, for or against. Sometimes it appears some of the posters here are more against the republican party than they are against abortion. Don’t get me wrong, I am no party loyalist for the RP. In fact if the talk going on now continues and leads into action of “softening social views” I will be forced out of it just like the democrat party.
This is where the division is, we cannot have a discussion any more which includes differing opinions without being called partisan or worse. Both sides are guilty, I agree with Prodigalson 1 on that note.
But it is time, no past time to look deeper. Jesus Christ is the King, He is the way the truth and the life, not Obama or ________ (you insert name).
One thing is certain, we just re-elected the most pro-abortion president in American history. How many souls will be lost because of our choice? The innocent lives of the babies do not count; I do not believe God condemns innocent souls to eternal damnation, He will hold us accountable for that. But He does allow free will to choose to kill these innocents; those are the souls the enemy hopes for with wrenched hands.
Contrary to popular belief we do not live in a pluralistic society, no matter what Joe Biden says. Read this document by Cardinal Ratzinger from 2002;
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html
The Church should be leading society change, not following it. Catholics needs to be teaching society not learning from it. We are losing our “seasoning”, soon we will be of no use but to be tossed out and trampled under foot. We Catholics will be just a resounding cymbal with no meaning.
We are called to unite in one community, God’s community. There is enough bad on both sides of the aisle to go around. Do we put out trust in princes or God? If we would live our lives as God guides us in the Scriptures, Traditions and the Magisterium, all else would fall into place; and yes we would be at odds with our current government, why you ask, because our government is now anti-God or at best indifferent of God. We are no longer “one nation under God”; we have become one nation under man.
I don’t even remember why we are arguing anymore…
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