Papal prerogatives

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mardukm

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Dear Catholic brothers and sisters,

I would like to resurrect an old topic and would like your (name removed by moderator)uton my belief about the papacy. I am open to correction (accompanied by right reason), so I hope you can help me out.

I believe that:

The Pope has immediate jurisdiction ONLY over his own Patriarchal Church on all matters regarding faith and discipline; his jurisdiction regarding discipline in other Patriarchal Churches is NOT immediate. Only in matters of universal Faith and morals and in the enforcement of a UNIVERSAL canon does the Pope have immediate jurisiction over all Churches. Further, the Pope also has ordinary jurisdiction over all Churches; but the exercise of this jurisdiction is EXTRAordinary.

Please let me know what you think as reflected in the poll and your comments.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Dear Catholic brothers and sisters,

I would like to resurrect an old topic and would like your (name removed by moderator)uton my belief about the papacy. I am open to correction (accompanied by right reason), so I hope you can help me out.
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This topic was discussed at length over two threads. Although the first is lengthy it is worth the read.

**VATICAN I - Pope restricted?

**forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=148280

Vatican I Pope restricted take 2

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=149770
​
 
Thanks for the links Father. I would hate to have to re-type all the old arguments. I am more interested in the poll, actually, though a continuation of the debate would be welcome.

Humbly,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Dear Catholic brothers and sisters,

I would like to resurrect an old topic and would like your (name removed by moderator)uton my belief about the papacy. I am open to correction (accompanied by right reason), so I hope you can help me out.

I believe that:

The Pope has immediate jurisdiction ONLY over his own Patriarchal Church on all matters regarding faith and discipline; his jurisdiction regarding discipline in other Patriarchal Churches is NOT immediate. Only in matters of universal Faith and morals and in the enforcement of a UNIVERSAL canon does the Pope have immediate jurisiction over all Churches. Further, the Pope also has ordinary jurisdiction over all Churches; but the exercise of this jurisdiction is EXTRAordinary.
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The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. The authority of Christ over the entire Church, exercised through His Vicar, cannot be limited.

This is the basic theological principle and it is amply instituted in the Codes of Canon Law both of the Roman Church and of the Eastern Churches.

All of this is covered fully in the two threads which I have referenced above.
 
mardukm said:
I believe that:

The Pope has immediate jurisdiction ONLY over his own Patriarchal Church on all matters regarding faith and discipline; his jurisdiction regarding discipline in other Patriarchal Churches is NOT immediate.
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Such a claim is not only contrary to Catholic teaching but by expressing it you have placed yourself under anathema.
piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter%203.%20On%20the%20power%20and%20character%20of%20the%20primacy%20of%20the%20Roman%20pontiff

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.

. . .

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Such a claim is not only contrary to Catholic teaching but by expressing it you have placed yourself under anathema.
piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter%203.%20On%20the%20power%20and%20character%20of%20the%20primacy%20of%20the%20Roman%20pontiff

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.

. . .

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.
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So it would appear that all those RC’s agreeing with the OP are self-anathemazers according to Roman Canonical Law…

And so far, all who have voted agree with the OP’s view…

The Canons of Rome have painted them into a corner where any attempt to walk out sticks them with the leavings of the broad brush of anathema…

What to do, what to do??

Soften the Roman edges just a little, and smack-o:
ANATHEMA!

I appreciate his effort, however… He wants this all to go away and for us all to just be friends… But Roman Canon Law spikes him back into the mainstream of Papal Authoritarianism and dominance over all Churches…

And we end up somewhere between the hammer and the anvil… :bigyikes:

😉

Arsenios
 
mardukm said:
The Pope has immediate jurisdiction ONLY over his own Patriarchal Church on all matters regarding faith and discipline; his jurisdiction regarding discipline in other Patriarchal Churches is NOT immediate. Only in matters of universal Faith and morals and in the enforcement of a UNIVERSAL canon does the Pope have immediate jurisiction over all Churches. Further, the Pope also has ordinary jurisdiction over all Churches; but the exercise of this jurisdiction is EXTRAordinary.
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Brother Marduk,

I do understand why it should be the way you believe, yet it has not been exercised in practice, nor is it supported by the CCOC. (The bolded text above is a newer edition to the argument, I do not recall having it in previous debate. Interesting, I was curious how you interpreted Vatican I into this. :D)
Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches:
The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.
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As for the historical precedents, I cite the history of the Maronite Church (still looking for that thread of mine 🙂 ), the more recent example of the Maronite delegation to Rome to overturn the ban on married clergy the Pope enacted, and the subsequent decision of Rome which continues this tragic opposition to tradition. Apparently, that decision by the Pope supersedes the CCOC’s own mandate to return to married clergy as the CCOC came afterwards.

Brother, I would like to see your beliefs possible, but history and Canon says otherwise. My Latin brothers, what are your thoughts? It would seem to me that this particular belief would be, for lack of a better term, offensive to the stature and authority so vested by Latins in the Pope, though, no doubt those more ecumenical and accepting of EC’s will find it appropriate.

Much love, God Bless.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
What’s OC?

What’s a bit word?
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lol - i meant BIG words!
what is papal prerogative ?
Anathema?
CCOC?
and all the other abbreviations?

I thought I was quite bright but they may as well be talking Latin right enough!
 
Linnyo said:
lol - i meant BIG words!
what is papal prerogative ?
Anathema?
CCOC?
and all the other abbreviations?

I thought I was quite bright but they may as well be talking Latin right enough!
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CCOC: Code of Canon Law of the Orietal Churches. Latin rule book for the churches in the East under Rome.

OC, I have no idea.

EC “Eastern Catholic”
EO Eastern Orthodox
OO Oriental Orthodox (Copts, Syriacs, Armenians, etc.)
 
Isa_Almisry said:
CCOC: Code of Canon Law of the Orietal Churches. Latin rule book for the churches in the East under Rome.

OC, I have no idea.

EC “Eastern Catholic”
EO Eastern Orthodox
OO Oriental Orthodox (Copts, Syriacs, Armenians, etc.)
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Ok thankyou. I think I will not post a vote at this time since it is too complicated and I actually have no opinion except that the Catholic Church is usually spot on!👍
 
Linnyo said:
Ok thankyou. I think I will not post a vote at this time since it is too complicated and I actually have no opinion except that the Catholic Church is usually spot on!👍
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Linnyo,

You’re very welcome in this Forum. To make life easier we have developed some abbreviations but you’ll soon pick up on those.

Don’t be afraid to jump in. Heck, it’s what I did 5 years ago and they still can’t get rid of me. 😃
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Linnyo,

You’re very welcome in this Forum. To make life easier we have developed some abbreviations but you’ll soon pick up on those.

Don’t be afraid to jump in. Heck, it’s what I did 5 years ago and they still can’t get rid of me. 😃
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hehe - thankyou.
I have been here a while and I usually avoid the ‘academic’ arguments but hey, I love doing polls!😃
 
Hello,
mardukm said:
Dear Catholic brothers and sisters,

I would like to resurrect an old topic and would like your (name removed by moderator)uton my belief about the papacy. I am open to correction (accompanied by right reason), so I hope you can help me out.

I believe that:

The Pope has immediate jurisdiction ONLY over his own Patriarchal Church on all matters regarding faith and discipline; his jurisdiction regarding discipline in other Patriarchal Churches is NOT immediate. Only in matters of universal Faith and morals and in the enforcement of a UNIVERSAL canon does the Pope have immediate jurisiction over all Churches. Further, the Pope also has ordinary jurisdiction over all Churches; but the exercise of this jurisdiction is EXTRAordinary.

Please let me know what you think as reflected in the poll and your comments.

Blessings,
Marduk
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The Holy Father has immediate power over the whole Church, even in matters of discipline. As the Eastern Canons read:

Canon 43 The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.

Canon 45 §1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only as power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

§2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of exercising this function.

§3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.
 
Hello,
Isa_Almisry said:
OC, I have no idea.
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Given the abbreviations in the poll: EC/OC and EO/OO - I think we can deduce that OC is meant to signify Oriental Catholics (Coptic Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Maronite Catholics, etc.).
 
I have to go to sleep and I promise to get involved in the discussion when I wake up, but I would like to clarify something:

Dear EO and OO posters, when the poll asks you if what I stated is acceptable or not, what I mean is whether what I stated is an acceptable model for the Orthodox Church, not whether or not you think it is acceptable as a Catholic belief.

Good night/early morning and God bless,
Marduk
 
Hello,
Fr_Ambrose said:
Such a claim is not only contrary to Catholic teaching but by expressing it you have placed yourself under anathema.
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No, they have not placed themselves under anathema. With any teaching in the Church, there is no anathema or excommunication until such denial or doubt becomes obstinate.
 
Hello,
yeshua said:
My Latin brothers, what are your thoughts? It would seem to me that this particular belief would be, for lack of a better term, offensive to the stature and authority so vested by Latins in the Pope, though, no doubt those more ecumenical and accepting of EC’s will find it appropriate.
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I must be missing something. How would this be offensive to the stature and authority so vested by Latins in the Pope (actually so vested by Jesus)?

I myself see such authority as necessary - as stated in conciliar documents and canon law - for the safeguarding of the Faith and the preservation of unity in the Church.
 
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