Papal primacy

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See post above - can you tell from outside (of mass) observations of a brother what his doctrine is on eucharist ?
What if you ate some bread believing that it was the Body of Christ, but in truth, it was not? Do you still have life in you? Jesus said that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood. On this, He was specific.

What if you claimed the name of Christ, but worshipped him via the JWs or Mormons, and denied His divinity. Would you still be saved? Probably? Maybe? Not at all?

Remember that both sects are bible-based, so you cannot disprove either using the bible. It’s all one opinion against another. There is no referee.

Are you willing to risk your salvation on a maybe or a probably?
 
Jesus said that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood. On this, He was specific.
I have a Catholic friend who became fond of quoting Haydock’s commentary at me. There’s an interesting verse, however, that conveniently Haydock’s has no commentary on at all. Maybe some well-informed Catholic would like to explain John 6:35b, and how it supports Catholic doctrine:

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever*** believes ***in me will never be thirsty.

Could it be that “eating” and “drinking” are an analogy to believing? Jesus’ whole discussion starts with the question put to him “what must I do to do the works God requires?” The answer: Believe. Look at verses 29, 35, 36, 40, 47. Could it be that the Jews listening to that speech equated bread with the Torah, and “eating of it” was reading and understanding the covenant of God? Deuteronomy 8:3:

“… to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.”

Ideally, the Infallible Interpreter will appear and explain John 6:35, or has done so in the past and that explanation is freely available? But this discussion of transubstantiation is really for another thread. To bring it back on topic, it would nevertheless be a magnificent demonstration of a clear, authoritative guidance, and affirm papal primacy if Catholics simply referred us Protestants each time to the explanation of the verse by the Infallible Interpreter. Because all we get here are Catholics using private judgement. 😉

As for this:
Remember that both sects are bible-based, so you cannot disprove either using the bible. It’s all one opinion against another. There is no referee.
Ireneaus, Volume 1, Against Heresies, Book 3:2:1:
“When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce…”

Sure, Ireneaus’ comments on the heretics apply well enough to JWs and Mormons, but that is how Catholicism operates too, isn’t it? All 3 groups say Scripture is ambiguous and that only their organisation can interpret it.
 
My bible does not have “priest” in it. Paul calls himself a minister, an apostle but never priest (heirus).
This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term “priest” is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for “elder” – presbuteros – as any dictionary will confirm. This is any some Old Catholic translations render the word as “priests” where Protestant Bibles have “elder.” For example, in the Douay-Rheims Bible (the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version) we read:

“For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee” (Titus 1:5).

“Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him” (James 5:14-15).

We also see in the New Testament that the functions of the Old Testament elder – who served in the synagogue – have been fused with the functions of the Old Testament priest – whose served in the temple. We can see the fusion of the two concepts in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read:

“I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty [literally, “the priestly work”] of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

Paul tells us that because he has been given a calling as a professional minister of Christ, he has a priestly work of preaching the gospel so that the Gentiles may be an offering – a sacrifice to God. This is not something only he has. Every elder in every church has that same “priestly work” of preaching the gospel. So Paul here conceives of the office of the New Testament minister as a priestly office. Notice that the hearers of the gospel in this passage are not depicted as priests, but as the sacrifice to God. Paul draws a distinction between himself and his work of preaching the gospel, and his readers and their duty of hearing it. It is the minister, not the congregation, who is here pictured as priest.

A second passage revealing the fusion of the offices of Old Testament elder and Old Testament priest is Revelation 5:8, where we read:

“And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Here we have the twenty-four heavenly elders (presbyteroi) depicted as offering incense to God in bowls, just as the Old Testament priests did with their own gold incense bowls (Num. 7:84-86).

It is especially important to note that this was a function only priests could perform, as indicated a few chapters later, in Numbers 16, which records the story of Korah’s rebellion. This story concerns precisely the issue before us today: Whether the fact that all believers are priests means that there is no ministerial priesthood. Korah said it does mean that, and he gathered a rebellion against Moses and Aaron to usurp the priesthood from them. Numbers 16 says:

“Now Korah…and Dathan and Abiram…took men; and they rose up before Moses, with a number of the people of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men; and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said…‘You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?’ When Moses heard it, he fell on his face; and he said…‘In the morning the LORD will show who is his, and who is holy…Do this: take censers . . . put fire in them and put incense upon them before the LORD tomorrow, and the man whom the LORD chooses shall be the holy one. You have gone too far, sons of Levi!…*s it too small a thing for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel…would you seek the priesthood also? Therefore it is against the LORD that you and all your company have gathered together; what is Aaron that you murmur against him?’” (Num. 16:1-11).

After this you can guess what happened. The men loaded up their censers and tried to offer incense before the Lord, but God caused the earth to open its mouth and swallow up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, then he caused fire to come out of the Tabernacle and swallow up the two hundred and fifty men offering incense, showing that they were not to be priests, not the ones to offer incense, even though God had said that in one sense the whole congregation were priests.

Thus, in the Old Testament God was willing to kill people that are not priests who offer incense to him. So when we see the elders (presbyteroi) doing so in his heavenly temple, we must infer that they are priests. A fusion of the office of elder and priest has taken place.*
 
Well, the way you state it makes it sound that all three were simultaneous. This is highly incorrect as I have sated in other posts here. The third,“nation of priests” I think only lasted what, a month before they sinned in Sinai ? The Israelites abdicated for fear (and sin) their promise of priesthood. Then #1 and #2 were instituted. …yada, yada,yada
Hey guys, give it up. Pocohombre is a troll He joined December 27, 2012 and in ten months he has 1033 posts. On top of that he keeps rehashing the same stuff. He has certainly been shown the light of the 2,000 year old Christian church established by Jesus but prefers the darkness of 16th century inventions of man. It is time to shake his dust from your sandals and go on to the next town.

Besides that this thread is supposed to be on papal primacy and there has been significant thread drift.
 
Hey guys, give it up. Pocohombre is a troll He joined December 27, 2012 and in ten months he has 1033 posts. On top of that he keeps rehashing the same stuff. He has certainly been shown the light of the 2,000 year old Christian church established by Jesus but prefers the darkness of 16th century inventions of man. It is time to shake his dust from your sandals and go on to the next town.

Besides that this thread is supposed to be on papal primacy and there has been significant thread drift.
Okay. I’m out.

👋
 
Hey guys, give it up. Pocohombre is a troll He joined December 27, 2012 and in ten months he has 1033 posts. On top of that he keeps rehashing the same stuff. He has certainly been shown the light of the 2,000 year old Christian church established by Jesus but prefers the darkness of 16th century inventions of man. It is time to shake his dust from your sandals and go on to the next town.

Besides that this thread is supposed to be on papal primacy and there has been significant thread drift.
I’ll bite. 🙂 "16th century inventions? Be specific.

Anywho, tell me about the 2nd Council of Nicea. How many examples of icon worship/veneration/call it what you will, do you suppose the council found from the first 3 centuries in support of the practice? You wouldn’t want your doctrine to be the “invention of man” would you? By the way, the answer is one, and it was in a pagan context not Christian. But you can do that research on your own time if truth matters.

And, ezeekl, let me ask you a direct question that is quite on the topic of papal primacy: do you believe Catholic doctrine on the papacy developed?
 
The “some would say” are those rejecting the precise words of Our Lord and placing themselves above St Paul who taught the truth:
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
“Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup unworthily will be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord.” (1 Cor: 26,27).
Well,Paul still calls them bread and cup, after consecration, as did our Lord. You want transubstantiation Ok .You want consubstantiation ok . You want spiritual symbol ,OK. Paul does not rebuke them for not understanding that the elements turn into His body/blood. He chastises them for not discerning Calvary in the commemoration. This is not ordinary food and drink. That we know for sure.
The fact that some scoff at “transubstantiation” shows clearly that thay do not believe St Paul either who explained: The Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim 3:16), and “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!
Yes, totally agree, just that you and I have different definition of what “church” is. Fact is for centuries differing views on “communion” and real presence were acceptable. When did the CC come out with a doctrine on the matter that had to be believed ?
Jesus referred to Himself only – “I shall not drink…” The rejection of Jesus by substituting “so called consecrated wine” is demolished by Jesus Himself: “For **this is My blood **of the new covenant , which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Mt 26:28).
Don’t follow what you are saying with the “I shall not drink”
The fact of no priesthood (Holy Orders) to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Holy Eucharist);
Right .We use a more biblical term of presbyter/elder, even pastor to be president of ceremony /commemorization. You derive “priest” from this also.
no sacraments of Penance (Reconciliation), Confirmation
Right. We don’t think they are apostolic.
and the Anointing of the Sick (Extreme Unction)
We do believe in the annointing of the sick by a priest, I mean an elder/presbyter
displays the incompleteness that befalls those who reject Christ’s institution, His Church, with His Magisterium and infallibility in dogma and doctrine.
Again, judge by the fruits of individuals who suffer such “incompleteness”. I dare say you can not tell the difference from those who are “complete”
and not. Which then makes one wonder if they are beyond Christ’s universal, catholic teachings, or so necessary to be dogmatic and divisive.
That is why Catholics were able to build Western Civilization
Actually, how have the two “churches” fared in the new world ? Both began pioneering at the same time, similar circumstances. Would you say Catholic or Protestant countries fared better ?
the state of the world today exemplifies that disorder.
Is there more order in Mexico or New Mexico, though these are troublesome times for all our lands challenging His blessings ?
The results are evident in the promotion of divorce, contraception, abortion, euthanasia, homosexual/lesbian pretensions to “marriage”, to name a few, and the national promotion of all of these in many countries
As I said, it affects both “churches” in all countries, including my beloved Spain, a predominately Catholic country as you know.
 
let me ask you a direct question that is quite on the topic of papal primacy: do you believe Catholic doctrine on the papacy developed?
Gee, third time I have needed to post this in the last two days.

Of course it developed. And here’s why:

The following excerpt is taken from John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. In this passage, Newman considers the development of the modern papacy and explains why an explicit understanding of Papal Supremacy by the early Church Fathers is not necessary and the lack thereof not fatal to the Catholic claims defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870.

Let us see how, on the principles which I have been laying down and defending, the evidence lies for the Pope’s supremacy.

As to this doctrine the question is this, whether there was not from the first a certain element at work, or in existence, divinely sanctioned, which, for certain reasons, did not at once show itself upon the surface of ecclesiastical affairs, and of which events in the fourth century are the development; and whether the evidence of its existence and operation, which does occur in the earlier centuries, be it much or little, is not just such as ought to occur upon such an hypothesis.

. . . While Apostles were on earth, there was the display neither of Bishop nor Pope; their power had no prominence, as being exercised by Apostles. In course of time, first the power of the Bishop displayed itself, and then the power of the Pope . . .

. . . St. Peter’s prerogative would remain a mere letter, till the complication of ecclesiastical matters became the cause of ascertaining it. While Christians were “of one heart and soul,” it would be suspended; love dispenses with laws . . .

When the Church, then, was thrown upon her own resources, first local disturbances gave exercise to Bishops,and next ecumenical disturbances gave exercise to Popes; and whether communion with the Pope was necessary for Catholicity would not and could not be debated till a suspension of that communion had actually occurred. It is not a greater difficulty that St. Ignatius does not write to the Asian Greeks about Popes, than that St. Paul does not write to the Corinthians about Bishops. And it is a less difficulty that the Papal supremacy was not formally acknowledged in the second century, than that there was no formal acknowledgment on the part of the Church of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity till the fourth. No doctrine is defined till it is violated . . .

Moreover, an international bond and a common authority could not be consolidated, were it ever so certainly provided, while persecutions lasted. If the Imperial Power checked the development of Councils, it availed also for keeping back the power of the Papacy. The Creed, the Canon, in like manner, both remained undefined. The Creed, the Canon, the Papacy, Ecumenical Councils, all began to form, as soon as the Empire relaxed its tyrannous oppression of the Church. And as it was natural that her monarchical power should display itself when the Empire became Christian, so was it natural also that further developments of that power should take place when that Empire fell. Moreover, when the power of the Holy See began to exert itself, disturbance and collision would be the necessary consequence . . . as St. Paul had to plead, nay, to strive for his apostolic authority, and enjoined St. Timothy, as Bishop of Ephesus, to let no man despise him:so Popes too have not therefore been ambitious because they did not establish their authority without a struggle. It was natural that Polycrates should oppose St. Victor; and natural too that St. Cyprian should both extol the See of St. Peter, yet resist it when he thought it went beyond its province . . .

On the whole, supposing the power to be divinely bestowed, yet in the first instance more or less dormant, a history could not be traced out more probable, more suitable to that hypothesis, than the actual course of the controversy which took place age after age upon the Papal supremacy.

It will be said that all this is a theory. Certainly it is: it is a theory to account for facts as they lie in the history, to account for so much being told us about the Papal authority in early times, and not more; a theory to reconcile what is and what is not recorded about it; and, which is the principal point, a theory to connect the words and acts of the Ante-Nicene Church with that antecedent probability of a monarchical principle in the Divine Scheme, and that actual exemplification of it in the fourth century, which forms their presumptive interpretation. All depends on the strength of that presumption. Supposing there be otherwise good reason for saying that the Papal Supremacy is part of Christianity, there is nothing in the early history of the Church to contradict it . . .

Moreover, all this must be viewed in the light of the general probability, so much insisted on above, that doctrine cannot but develop as time proceeds and need arises, and that its developments are parts of the Divine system, and that therefore it is lawful, or rather necessary, to interpret the words and deeds of the earlier Church by the determinate teaching of the later.

(Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman, Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1878 ed., Univ. of Notre Dame Press, 1989, pp. 148-155; Part 1, Chapter 4, Section 3.)
 
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever*** believes ***in me will never be thirsty.

Could it be that “eating” and “drinking” are an analogy to believing?
That is not what the Apostles believed, although it has recently become a popular way to deny the Eucharist. The bible states otherwise. Those in the upper room already believed. Those in Acts who met to break the bread already believed.

As well, what you are alleging means that Jesus commanded the Apostles to meet and remember Him, as often as they remembered Him, in remembrance of Him. Huh? That is complete nonsense! (1 Corinthians 11:25) It must be more than a simple remembrance.

Consider: The fathers of both primary wings of protestantism believed in the Holy Eucharist - but introduced new teachings that neither the 2,000 year old Orthodox nor Catholic Churches held from the beginning. Luther knew that Christ was truly present in the Eucharist and that the faithful were commanded to eat and drink. But, he denied that it was a sacrifice. Calvin knew that it was a sacrifice which was joined to Christ’s sacrifice, but denied Christ’s true presence. The sacrifice and true presence had been consistent Christian teaching for over 1,500 years at the time that Luther and Calvin introduced their new, man-made teachings. Man-made? Yes! Luther developed one train of thought, while Calvin developed the opposite. Martin Luther and Jean Calvin - two men. Which man do you follow?

The reformers’ beliefs were considered heresy according to both Catholic and Orthodox Churches, since those new beliefs dissolved the Lord Jesus in one way or another (1 John 4:1-3). Partially because of that new and erroneous belief, the Orthodox refused to establish a communion with the reformers.

Today, vast numbers of protestants have completely rejected the Eucharist. What has happened to protestantism since its founding? Did God change? Did triuth change? None other than JRR Tolkien (collaborator in the English translation of the Jerusalem Bible) summarized the reformation as an assault on the Eucharist.

Question: Who is first in the New Testament, to use the words “new testament”, and in what context?

Answer: Our Lord Jesus, as He consecrated the bread and wine into His Body and Blood in the upper room! The bread and wine become the New Testament. Those 27 books became known in the early Church as the New Testament because they were read on the Lord’s day at the breaking of the bread - the Eucharist - the New Testament in Christ’s Body and Blood.

If it is only a memorial, why were some Corinthians sick and others dying for failing to discern the Lord’s Body contained within it? Paul teaches that those who unworthily receive the Eucharist are guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. Did you see that? By unworthily partaking, they were as guilty as the Pharisees and Roman executioners! Please think about that. (1 Corinthians 11:27-31)

Question: God hears the prayers of sinners when they are most sinful. Why can they not receive the Eucharist when they are sinful?

Answer: It is something more than a remembrance. More than a symbol.
“… to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.”
This condemns “bible alone” as the bible itself tells us that all of God’s words are not in it! Where are they?
Sure, Ireneaus’ comments on the heretics apply well enough to JWs and Mormons, but that is how Catholicism operates too, isn’t it? All 3 groups say Scripture is ambiguous and that only their organisation can interpret it.
If scripture was clear and unambiguous, there would be protestant unity. The complete opposite is true. The bible tells us that someone in authority must interopret. Nehemaih 8:5-8, Acts 8:26-35 and 2 Peter 3:15-16 among others.

You want infallible interpretation? Go to the catechism! Want a hard copy? I will send you one!

As to the bible, look at Acts 11:26. Paul remained in Antioch and taught the Gospel for an entire year. He had no NT scripture - none! It had not been written. Please explain how the Gospel was taught if you must have a bible. Paul had no bible. Look at the prologue to Luke (Luke 1:1-4). We see that Theophilus learned nothing - zero, zip, nada - from reading Luke’s Gospel. Luke wrote his Gospel only to confirm the oral Apostolic teaching - Paul’s teaching - that Theophilus had already learned. Thank about that.
 
po18guy;11355515U:
What if you ate some bread believing that it was the Body of Christ, but in truth, it was not? Do you still have life in you?
I would say if you did before communion you do after. What do you say ?
Jesus said that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood. On this, He was specific.
Yep. Augustine said Peter “ate” “without teeth and belly” but by his faith proclamation,and Jesus took it as such.
What if you claimed the name of Christ, but worshipped him via the JWs or Mormons, and denied His divinity. Would you still be saved? Probably? Maybe? Not at all?
Of course you are right…My “analogy” only goes so far. It is not the whole pie of defense, only a small piece. I have often said living a holy life is not enough, and just look at Mormons, who are known for a sort of purity putting some Christians to shame. It is just the CC puts forth the idea that the sacrament is like a power boost, beyond just what the symbolism only partaker experiences. I don’t mind one saying it gives them spiritual health, for it may. Just don’t like it when they say I do not have similar health because I don’t participate the same way. The health should therefore be able to be quantified according to CC view, and I say there is no difference.The symbol partaker is equally blessed as is the tran or consubstantiation partaker.
Remember that both sects are bible-based, so you cannot disprove either using the bible. It’s all one opinion against another. There is no referee.
Well of course we both agree there is a referee, but at some point you simply wind up with differences. You can not avoid this. If you believe it is the pope, well what if a pope said something different from a previous pope? What if there are several popes at same time.or if one sticks to a Patriarch or if one goes by councils ? You say well let it be the church and one says which church ? If you say the one, holy, apostolic,Catholic church then someone will say no, this is the one, holy ,apostolic and catholic church. If one says it is scripture then one says which scripture books, or what translation, and which interpretation ? You think the pope solves the referee problem, and it may, but only for Catholics. Even the referee of all referees ,The Holy Spirit, even Jesus today, can not rule out division, not until he comes with His rod, in that great day. And all true unity rests with Him.
Are you willing to risk your salvation on a maybe or a probably?
The Lord knows in whom or what we trust and gives us evidences, but absolutely brother, buyer beware.
 
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever*** believes ***in me will never be thirsty.
Amen to your comments and welcome to CA. I wonder if it is a literal eating as CC proposes, then why is it not also a literal "never going hungry " ? They go together. if one is literal, both should be. If one is spiritual, then both should be. Blessings.
 
I would say if you did before communion you do after. What do you say ? Yep. Augustine said Peter “ate” “without teeth and belly” but by his faith proclamation,and Jesus took it as such.
Not sure what this has to do with anything. Do you judge Christ to be in error for choosing Peter? Judas? What can you trust Christ in, then?
Well of course we both agree there is a referee, but at some point you simply wind up with differences.
Who or what is the referee? Would that be the referee who wrote the table of contents of the bible?
The Lord knows in whom or what we trust and gives us evidences, but absolutely brother, buyer beware.
Yes! Buyer beware of man-made beliefs. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. Three men who were divided by the bible. Since all of bible Christianity traces directly to them, which of them do you follow?
 
Of course it developed. And here’s why:
The following excerpt is taken from John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.
How thrilling. You gave the exact answer I was hoping for. And you seem acquainted with Vatican 1.

“At open variance with this clear doctrine of Holy Scripture as it has been ever understood by the Catholic Church…”

“For none can doubt, and it is known to all ages, that the holy and blessed Peter, the Prince and Chief of the Apostles, the pillar of the faith…”

“Wherefore it has at all times been necessary that every particular Church—that is to say, the faithful throughout the world—should agree with the Roman Church…”

“Therefore faithfully adhering to the tradition received **from the beginning **of the Christian faith…”

And Leo 13 affirming Vatican 1:

“Wherefore, in the decree of the Vatican Council as to the nature and authority of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff, no newly conceived opinion is set forth, but** the venerable and constant belief of every age**.”

Ever been understood? Known to all ages? At all times necessary? The venerable and constant belief of every age? Let’s not kid ourselves, this is saying there was no development. You say “of course there’s been development” - and you’re right, every man and his dog knows there’s been development - but Vatican 1 says this tradition was received “from the beginning”. It was not.

Now, po18guy:
Please explain how the Gospel was taught if you must have a bible.
That’s not a definition of sola scriptura any Protestant should accept. Try again. With a little more intellectual honesty.
If it is only a memorial, why were some Corinthians sick and others dying for failing to discern the Lord’s Body contained within it? Paul teaches that those who unworthily receive the Eucharist are guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. Did you see that? By unworthily partaking, they were as guilty as the Pharisees and Roman executioners! Please think about that. (1 Corinthians 11:27-31)
I don’t really appreciate the tone, but moving on. Do you suppose that the Last Supper can only be taken seriously if transubstantiation is true? Shall we call that the Catholic superiority complex? You seem to suppose that “unworthily partaking” refers to their personal qualifications, to their “unfitness” to partake of it, rather than to the manner in which it is done. Try not divorce the verse from context. Just read the chapter:

17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

And that is what Paul means by eating and drinking unworthily, and why he says to examine oneself: it’s the manner in which it is done. In terms of personal merit, we are all unworthy. That said, may I draw your attention to verse 17. Clearly Paul is talking about how the Corinthians celebrate the Lord’s Supper, yet he says “I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good”. That must be a hard line to take as a Catholic, because you’d say whatever the failings, it’s still the means of God bestowing His grace, etc. etc. And in short, that such a profound good must be a “redeeming” quality. I know how important you think the mass is because of it as a means to get sanctifying grace. But despite table-thumping and saying one is saved by grace though sacraments, it is nowhere stated in the Bible. It is a Catholic fiction. Grace is received by faith, not by observing rituals. And not being Catholic and having no thoughts of sacramental grace is why Paul could say of their Lord’s Supper that it does more harm than good, which no Catholic could agree with. And before you look, Haydock’s doesn’t mention the “more harm than good” at all.
You want infallible interpretation? Go to the catechism.
I’m glad you said that. Are catechisms infallible? They’re not ex cathedra. So the question is do you think nihil obstat and imprimatur are foolproof?

“Cheating in an examination at school is not sinful unless it brings injustice to others.” From the New Parish Catechism. Imprimatur: Most Rev. Joseph A. Durick, DD Bishop of Nashville.

When you have a theological question, who do you go to for infallible guidance? Now if a catechism with the imprimatur has to be revised, where is your certainty? How can you know what is true? It may not be the case that every book or tract or whatever that gets the imprimatur has such errors on faith and morals, but a few do, and you have to use your private judgement to know error when you see it. But even then, what is the standard to which you will compare everything you read? Other fallible books? That a bishop’s okay = error free was always wishful thinking, and it can only be a good thing that it is debunked. The authoritative advantage you claim over Protestants dissolves in your hands and at best you have to use your private judgement - the very thing you claim is a problem.
 
Of course they do. Is this a problem? Not according to at least one Protestant scholar who is honest about this history: the renowned Church historian, J. N. D. Kelly. Kelly dates the usage of the name “Catholic” after the death of the Apostle John, but he acknowledges that the original Church founded by Jesus called itself the “Catholic Church”.

“As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general’ … As applied to the Church, its primary significance was to underline its universality as opposed to the local character of the individual congregations. Very quickly, however, in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic Church is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations. . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 5th ed. [San Francisco: Harper, 1978], 190f).

So, yeah…the Christians began calling themselves the “Catholic Church” by the end of the first century or thereabout, and that visible Church, founded by Jesus upon Peter the rock, still exists to this day.
yes, agree with statement by kelly. Catholic was first used around 110 ad as opposed to naming a church by her city which at first was customary. And as Christians became heretical the name was used in opposition to them.
Of course early fathers said nothing of invisible church but they also did not say much about a pope ,if at all in the first 100 years either. She was still quite visible pope or no pope. I would assure you also my congregation is quite visible, even empirical, all the good , bad, and ugly of her. I would say to a Hindu etc, Christianity is very visible, empirical in its universality, its catholicism, even amongst it’s many forms of Roman Catholic,Orthodox, and Protestantism.
 
Not sure what this has to do with anything. Do you judge Christ to be in error for choosing Peter? Judas?
Nope. No error. We just differ on exactly what he was chosen for.
Who or what is the referee? Would that be the referee who wrote the table of contents of the bible?
Submit yourselves one to another .In a way we are all referees. But I also listed most of the historicaly popular “referees” didn’t I ?
Yes! Buyer beware of man-made beliefs. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. Three men who were divided by the bible. Since all of bible Christianity traces directly to them, which of them do you follow?
I like going back to Huss and Wycliffe and sometimes Augustine,and Barnabus.
 
Hey guys, give it up. Pocohombre is a troll He joined December 27, 2012 and in ten months he has 1033 posts. On top of that he keeps rehashing the same stuff. He has certainly been shown the light of the 2,000 year old Christian church established by Jesus but prefers the darkness of 16th century inventions of man. It is time to shake his dust from your sandals and go on to the next town.

Besides that this thread is supposed to be on papal primacy and there has been significant thread drift.
ezeekl, sorry bro. Randy put up good stuff, good points, taking some effort. I thought he deserved a good rebuttal, with equal effort. I did not “yada, yada, yada” his stuff, but sorry if I was too strong in disagreeing. At least you are honest in your opinion of my reply. Funnier than yada,yada,yada is Charlie Browns version of a teacher being totally out of the zone and and all her students hear coming out of her mouth is, “wok wok wok wok wok”.
 
Ireneaus, Volume 1, Against Heresies, Book 3:2:1:
“When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce…”

Sure, Ireneaus’ comments on the heretics apply well enough to JWs and Mormons, but that is how Catholicism operates too, isn’t it? All 3 groups say Scripture is ambiguous and that only their organisation can interpret it.
I can’t believe you just used Ireneaus to say that the Catholic Church says Scripture is ambiguous.

Ireneaus is the one who says only the Church can interpret Scripture:

Here, he shows how the heretics of his time used Scripture (and only Scripture) to prove their positions:
Such, then, is the account which they all give of their Pleroma, and of the formation of the universe, striving, as they do, to adapt the good words of revelation to their own wicked inventions. And it is not only from the writings of the evangelists and the apostles that they endeavour to derive proofs for their opinions by means of perverse interpretations and deceitful expositions: they deal in the same way with the law and the prophets, which contain many parables and allegories that can frequently be drawn into various senses, according to the kind of exegesis to which they are subjected. And others of them, with great craftiness, adapted such parts of Scripture to their own figments, lead away captive from the truth those who do not retain a steadfast faith in one God, the Father Almighty, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. - “Book 1, Chp 3”
Here, he gives a proof that the heretics are in error:
But since what may prove a finishing-stroke to this exhibition is wanting, so that any one, on following out their farce to the end, may then at once append an argument which shall overthrow it, we have judged it well to point out, first of all, in what respects the very fathers of this fable** differ among themselves, as if they were inspired by different spirits of error**. For this very fact forms an a priori proof that the truth proclaimed by the Church is immoveable, and that the theories of these men are but a tissue of falsehoods. - Book 1, Chp 9
Hmmm… that sounds an awful lot like the claims of the Apostolic Churches (Orthodox and Catholic) against Protestants. The more things change…

How about this one, in which he gives reasons as to why he is correct, and the heretics wrong, by appealing to Tradition and Apostolic Succession:
But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. - Bk 3, Chp 2
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. - Bk 3, Chp 3
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times… Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that** every Church should agree with this Church**, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
Continued below
 
Continued
Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. Revelation 22:17 For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches? - Bk 3, Chp 4
I do hope you’ll read more of the Church Fathers sometime. They crushed all doubt about my faith, seeing how they taught and resolved conflict when it arose. It was like a mirror image of the faith I hold now: though weak and human and sinful, men, guided by the Spirit, have been led to all Truth.
 
I can’t believe you just used Ireneaus to say that the Catholic Church says Scripture is ambiguous.
Ireneaus is the one who says only the Church can interpret Scripture:
Here, he shows how the heretics of his time used Scripture (and only Scripture) to prove their positions:
Here, he gives a proof that the heretics are in error:
Hmmm… that sounds an awful lot like the claims of the Apostolic Churches (Orthodox and Catholic) against Protestants. The more things change…
How about this one, in which he gives reasons as to why he is correct, and the heretics wrong, by appealing to Tradition and Apostolic Succession:
Continued below
Why does Iraneus say the church started in Rome ? Actually I just answered my own question. Apparently he still views the church as city churches .hence he says “every church” and “all the churches” have bishops, and the ancient church founded at Rome by Paul and Peter. Don’t know if he used the term “catholic”.
 
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