Papal Problems...:(

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East_and_West said:
What a coincidence. He is our authority too!!! That is why we are faithful to the Papacy he established on earth.
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Since I see no evidence of the establishment of a supreme infallible pontiff. I’ll stick with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as my authority on earth.👍
 
East_and_West said:
The point is that no matter how the schism happened, both protestants and EOs are broken off from the Churhc established by Jesus Christ. Nice try Michael, but the EO position, that it is the Church established by Jesus, is simply untenable.
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The protestants are your disobedient children–a schism of a schism. 🤷
 
LilyM said:
I’m not discussing any other councils. I’m saying that these two particular Councils, Hippo and Carthage, were incredibly important ones, dealing as they did with the Canon of Scripture, and determining which books were to be included in the Bible.

This was an issue which surely concerned the universal Church very deeply - you couldn’t have different Bibles floating around in different places, could you? We all know what massive problems the different canons cause even today.

So it was an issue which they would want to be resolved by the highest possible authority so as to have unanimous (or as near as possible) teaching on the issue. In other words what they needed was inerrant and infallible teaching.

And that in their quest for this highest possible authority, this inerrant and infallible teaching, they *only *bothered to seek the approval of the See of Rome and not any of the other Apostolic Patriarchs. Which is a very striking omission when one considers the ease with which they could at least have consulted with Alexandria in the event that Rome’s authority or supremacy was in doubt in any way. Not that location is a decisive factor, more of an interesting and telling sidenote.

The critical fact is that Rome’s authority and supremacy were NOT in any doubt - Rome and Rome alone could authoritatively endorse a Canon of Scripture which was intended to bind the whole universal church. Surely that would come under the heading of a teaching of Christ protected by His Holy Spirit (in other words infallible and part of the deposit of faith?)

Now not all the churches, as we know, accepted or accept Rome’s authority or the canon of Hippo and Carthage, just as they didn’t all accept any of the other Councils - quite probably not even the Council of Jerusalem mentioned in Scripture was universally accepted! Doesn’t change the fact that the Pope had the authority to ratify that Canon just as the Apostles had authority to ratify their decisions made in the Council in Jerusalem.
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AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
 
Mickey said:
Since I see no evidence of the establishment of a supreme infallible pontiff. I’ll stick with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as my authority on earth.👍
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So even your bishops have no authority now? Sounding more and more Protestant every day.
 
Mickey said:
Since I see no evidence of the establishment of a supreme infallible pontiff. I’ll stick with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as my authority on earth.👍
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There’s plenty of evidence. EOs just refuse to see it. I think it comes form the anti-western attitude from days of old. Anyway, we do beliece that Jesus is our aurthority. He simply rules through his Pope and the bishops. Do your bishops not have authority on earth? I agree with Lilly. Sounding more and more Protestant.
 
Mickey said:
Jesus Christ is our authoirty!

"Thou art the Light of my mind, O my Jesus; Thou art the Salvation of my despairing soul, O Saviour. O my Jesus, deliver me from torment and Gehenna, as I cry: Save me, the wretched one, O Christ my Jesus."
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beautiful prayer.
Jesus said to the apostles whoever listen to you listen to me and to my Father in Heaven. so what you are saying is: i do not have to listen to the Church i only listen to Jesus. in this case you are not listen to Jesus either, according to Jesus Himself. for that He stablished His Church for whoever listens to the Church is doing His will. unless you can hear Jesus speaking in clear voice when nobody else can.
 
Mickey said:
Since I see no evidence of the establishment of a supreme infallible pontiff. I’ll stick with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as my authority on earth.👍
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interesting! what kind of evidence do you need? one like, and you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it and to you, I will give the keys of the Kingdom?
that is good enough to me. Jesus spoke so it is.
 
LilyM said:
And that in their quest for this highest possible authority, they *only *bothered to seek the approval of the See of Rome and not any of the other Apostolic Patriarchs.
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At the Synod of Hippo (393) it was ordered that “dignities” should be sent from each ecclesiastical province. Only one was required from Tripoli, because of the poverty of the bishops of that province. At the Synod of Hippo (393), and again at the Synod of 397 at Carthage, a list of the books of Holy Scripture was drawn up.

Are you saying that the bishop of Rome compiled and declared the canon single handedly as an infallible supreme authority? :rolleyes:
LilyM said:
The critical fact is that Rome’s authority and supremacy were NOT in any doubt.
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That is true since 1870 when the Pope rendered the Council (Synod) meaningless. But in the early undivided Church, the bishop of Rome could not single-handedly promulgate something in opposition to said Council (Synod).
LilyM said:
Rome and Rome alone could authoritatively endorse a Canon of Scripture which was intended to bind the whole universal church.
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A Council and a Council alone.
LilyM said:
Surely that would come under the heading of a teaching of Christ protected by His Holy Spirit (in other words infallible and part of the deposit of faith?)).
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Infallibility was not known or understood to be a charism of the bishop of Rome in the early undivided Church.
LilyM said:
Doesn’t change the fact that the Pope had the authority to ratify that Canon just as the Apostles had authority to ratify their decisions made in the Council in Jerusalem.
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A pope would ratify a Council (Synodal) decision (hence his position of honor).

But the Pope could not infallibly declare something in opposition to a Council decision–until 1870.
 
wisdomseeker said:
interesting! what kind of evidence do you need? one like, and you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it and to you, I will give the keys of the Kingdom?
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Here we go again.

You can do a search to find out why the Orthodox Church does not see this verse as proof of supreme pontifical infallibility–I do not have the enegy.
 
Mickey said:
Thank you.
We most certainly listen to the Holy Orthodox Church. Christ is the Head of the Church.

But we are not in submission to a supreme infallible poniff in Rome. 🤷
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ok. and we listen to our church the holy catholic church. Christ being the Head and peter’s successors holding the keys of the Kingdom. who is right? who decides now?
 
Mickey said:
Here we go again.

You can do a search to find out why the Orthodox Church does not see this verse as proof of supreme pontifical infallibility–I do not have the enegy.
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i know you don’t have the energy. that is what happens when you come against Christ.
 
Mickey said:
Here we go again.

You can do a search to find out why the Orthodox Church does not see this verse as proof of supreme pontifical infallibility–I do not have the enegy.
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i just made some enchilladas. how do yo like some?
 
Mickey said:
Oh my! You are pitting me against my Lord and Saviour. You have made me weep. My conversation with you is finished. 😦
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oh. i am sorry mickey. that was not my intention. i know you love the Lord very much.
 
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