Papal Problems...:(

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wisdomseeker said:
because i have noticed that those who reject the claims of the catholic church go great length to disprove what is true.
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I see the opposite. I see that many Roman Catholics must jump through strange theological hoops in an effort to justify innovations. It saddens me.
 
Mickey said:
I see the opposite. I see that many Roman Catholics must jump through strange theological hoops in an effort to justify innovations. It saddens me.
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Not really. Rather, I see anti-papists making issues out of non-issues. Its really rather interesting.
 
wisdomseeker said:
sorry! we dont believe any man is infallible either. what we believe is what Jesus said that the Church is the Pillar of truth. Jesus Himself guaranted that He would give the HS who would lead His Church into all truth. this we believe. therefore we have no doubt that He chooses a fallible man to which this truth would be communicated. that was declared when He gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom. by the way, your interpretation that the rock Jesus referred to is peter’s faith is ridiculous since yourselves admit he failed many times in his faith. we believe Jesus has the power to do is He will. If He promised such things is because He could fulfill His promises. PEACE>
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Btw, as I have pointed out before, when He says He"will" give the keys, it is in the future, not the present.

When He says He “gives” the power to bind and loose to all the apostles a few chapters later, it is in the present. Ditto in St. John with the breathing on the Apostles.
 
:confused: :hmmm:
East_and_West said:
Not really. Rather, I see anti-papists making issues out of non-issues. Its really rather interesting.
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they believe our churche’s Fathers but ignores all the references made by them that points out to the catholic church as the one that leads the way.

:hmmm: confused:
 
jam070406 said:
No they didn’t. They broke from Rome under Muslim pressure.
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Then your schism would have been in the 6th century or the 15th, not the 11th.

Either way, you are a few centuries off.

Btw, they were, are and shall remain one communion, whether Rome is in or out of it.
 
East_and_West said:
Since the Catholic Church is the fulness of God’s revelation to man, I would say absolutely it can.
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Popeycock Christ is the fulness of Gods revealation to man. You have turned a man made institution into your idol and placed that idol above God Himself.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Then your schism would have been in the 6th century or the 15th, not the 11th.

Either way, you are a few centuries off.

Btw, they were, are and shall remain one communion, whether Rome is in or out of it.
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it is not true. after the scism atempts were made to reconcile but muslims pressured orthodox church against and orthodox church followed the muslims.
 
famousjonnyk said:
Mickey:

Here’s your proof from the early fathers that the chair of Peter had universal authority.

St. Irenaeus:

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound ALL those who, in WHATEVER manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the GREATEST and most ancient church known to ALL, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been ANNOUNCED TO MEN by the apostles. WITH THAT CHURCH, because of its superior origin, ALL THE CHURCHES must agree, that is, THE FAITHFUL IN THE WHOLE WORLD, and it is in her that the faithful EVERYWHERE have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Argue as you may, but Ireneaus is clearly talking about the whole world, not just the Western Patriarchate.
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He is also talking about Paul, and not just Peter.

He is also using consiencious exageration, as he knows that several Churches, e.g. Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus (whence he came) are older.

And it that part that you seemed to miss, he is talking about the succession in the whole world, not just Rome.
 
Mickey said:
Michael (Hesychios) responds to this appropriately.

St Irenaeus says nothing about supreme papal infallibility from the successors of St Peter.

However, I do see that he writes that the Church of Rome is founded by St Peter AND St Paul. 😉
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He also wrote Pope Victor in the Church’s universal rebuke of him.
 
Example of an infallible teaching given by the apostles on faith and morals without error under the guidance of the holy spirit. Please read all of Acts 15:1-29

Acts 15:27 and following; So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth ( the infallible teaching from Peter and the Magisterium, also see how James supports Peter from the Prophets vs.16-18): It is the DECISION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND OF US NOT TO PLACE on you any burden beyond these necessities…

Infallibility is given to the Apostolic Church under the Holy Spirit to keep them from teaching error on faith and morals.
 
wisdomseeker said:
if this is true, then why should we trust a church which was built by man.
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What? How by questioning the infallibility of one man do I deny the Church of infallibility [through its councils]?

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
As we understand the catholic. Jesus said " I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it". Lord we believe. this Church does not belong to any man but to Jesus, and Jesus uses visible men to minister His church. according to history the catholic church settled in Rome has been the most faithfull and we believe that it is this church that Jesus has favored to be the church to strength and feed the brothers. it is simple is that. obviously because others is not in communion with this church they are blind to the truth and therefore fails to make the connection.
picking little things here and there does not prove that this is not true. so you all have failed to show that a church other than the catholic church in Rome is not the chosen one.
PEACE!

:bowdown:
 
East_and_West said:
And he also says that everyone must be in the agreement with the Church in Rome. Why? Because of its supperior origin, not just because she happens to be right at that time. “Everyone” sounds pretty universal to me.
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Again, the translation is subject to interpretation. There are many times when the Councils didn’t agree with Rome. It is simply that Rome received her teachings from both Peter and Paul, the most glorious apostles, that she has a pre-eminence. It says nothing of Peter alone being the monopoly of truth, but rather the fact that both were there to preach and because of that, the testimony of Rome is pre-eminent…
 
Alexius said:
Again, the translation is subject to interpretation. There are many times when the Councils didn’t agree with Rome. It is simply that Rome received her teachings from both Peter and Paul, the most glorious apostles, that she has a pre-eminence. It says nothing of Peter alone being the monopoly of truth, but rather the fact that both were there to preach and because of that, the testimony of Rome is pre-eminent…
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they both died there too. that should tell you something.
 
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