Papal Problems...:(

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Isa_Almisry said:
You mean the Fathers at Constantinople who wrote the Creed, and, as the Catholic Answers spot on Eastern Orthodoxy admits, were not in communion with Rome?:

Pope Julian excommunicated the patriarch in 343, and Constantinople remained in schism until John Chrysostom assumed the patriarchate in 398.

catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp

The Creed was written 381.

That includes St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. Meleltius, etc. in fact the second Ecumenical Council had the most canonized saints assembled.
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Oh! I thought you believed the Pope was incapable of excommunicating his equal?? How the tide turns when it seems to fit your argument. :rolleyes:

The Fathers believed unity with Rome was necessary.

(This is only one quote among many.)

+++Cyprian of Carthage

“With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source” (ibid., 59:14).
 
Mickey said:
Ah sweet memories of a time when even the West was Orthodox. 😃
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The West was never Orthodox. Although Rome was correct (orthodox) in teaching. Orthodox was the name adopoted for the many various eastern churches after the split in 1054. The early Church was the Catholic Church with the supreme Church being at Rome, as the Fathers have said in many letters. 👍
 
wisdomseeker said:
that is for you, since heresies happened in your part of the world.
nice try though.
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A Chart of Heretical Eastern Patriarchs

Patriarchal See / Patriarch / Years / Heresy

Antioch Serapion 190-203 Docetic
Antioch Paul of Samosata 260-269 Modalist
Antioch Eulalius c.322 Arian
Antioch Euphronius c.327-c.329 Arian
Constantinople Eusebius 341-42 Arian
Constantinople Macedonius 342-60 Semi-Arian
Antioch Leontius 344-58 Arian
Alexandria George 357-61 Arian
Antioch Eudoxius 358-60 Arian
Constantinople Eudoxius 360 Arian
Antioch Euzoius 361-78 Arian
Constantinople Nestorius 428-31 Nestorian!
Alexandria Dioscorus 448-51 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy Aelurus 457-60, 475-77 Monophysite
Antioch Peter the Fuller 470,475-7, 482-88 Monophysite
Constantinople Acacius 471-89 Monophysite
Antioch John Codonatus 477,488 Monophysite
Alexandria Peter Mongo 477-90 Monophysite
Antioch Palladius 488-98 Monophysite
Constantinople Phravitas 489-90 Monophysite
Constantinople Euphemius 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria Athanasius II 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria John II 496-505 Monophysite
Alexandria John III 505-518 Monophysite
Constantinople Timothy I 511-17 Monophysite
Antioch Severus 512-18 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy III 518-35 Monophysite
Constantinople Anthimus 535-36 Monophysite
Alexandria Theodosius 535-38 Monophysite
Antioch Sergius c.542-c.557 Monophysite
Antioch Paul “the Black” c.557-578 Monophysite
Alexandria Damianus 570-c.605 Monophysite
Antioch Peter Callinicum 578-91 Monophysite
Constantinople Sergius 610-38 Monothelite
Antioch Anthanasius c.621-629 Monothelite
Alexandria Cyrus c.630-642 Monothelite
Constantinople Pyrrhus 638-41 Monothelite
Antioch Macedonius 640-c.655 Monothelite
Constantinople Paul II 641-52 Monothelite
Constantinople Peter 652-64 Monothelite
Antioch Macarius c.655-681 Monothelite
Constantinople John VI 711-15 Monothelite

Brief Summary:

These historical facts may be briefly summarized as follows: All three of the great Eastern sees were under the jurisdiction of heretical patriarchs simultaneously during five different periods: 357-60 (Arian), 475-77, 482-96, and 512-17 (all Monophysite), and 640-42 (Monothelite): a total of 26 years, or 9% of the time from 357 to 642. At least two out of three of the sees suffered under the yoke of a heterodox “shepherd” simultaneously for 112 years, or 33% of the period from 341 to 681 (or, two-thirds heretical for one-third of the time), and at least 248 of these same years saw one or more of the sees burdened with sub-orthodox ecclesiastical leaders: an astonishing 73% rate (277 years, or 53% from 190 to 715). Thus the East, as represented by its three greatest bishops, was at least one-third heretical for nearly three-quarters of the time over a 340-year span. If we examine each city separately, we find, for example, that between 475 and 675, the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch were outside the Catholic orthodox faith for 41%, 55%, and 58% of the time respectively. Furthermore, these deplorable conditions often manifested themselves for long, unbroken terms: Antioch and Alexandria were Monophysite for 49 and 63 straight years (542-91 and 475-538 respectively), while Constantinople, the seat of the Byzantine Empire and the “New Rome,” was embroiled in the Monothelite heresy for 54 consecutive years (610-64). There were at least 42 heretical Patriarchs of these sees between 190 and 711.
 
jam070406 said:
A Chart of Heretical Eastern Patriarchs

Patriarchal See / Patriarch / Years / Heresy

Antioch Serapion 190-203 Docetic
Antioch Paul of Samosata 260-269 Modalist
Antioch Eulalius c.322 Arian
Antioch Euphronius c.327-c.329 Arian
Constantinople Eusebius 341-42 Arian
Constantinople Macedonius 342-60 Semi-Arian
Antioch Leontius 344-58 Arian
Alexandria George 357-61 Arian
Antioch Eudoxius 358-60 Arian
Constantinople Eudoxius 360 Arian
Antioch Euzoius 361-78 Arian
Constantinople Nestorius 428-31 Nestorian!
Alexandria Dioscorus 448-51 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy Aelurus 457-60, 475-77 Monophysite
Antioch Peter the Fuller 470,475-7, 482-88 Monophysite
Constantinople Acacius 471-89 Monophysite
Antioch John Codonatus 477,488 Monophysite
Alexandria Peter Mongo 477-90 Monophysite
Antioch Palladius 488-98 Monophysite
Constantinople Phravitas 489-90 Monophysite
Constantinople Euphemius 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria Athanasius II 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria John II 496-505 Monophysite
Alexandria John III 505-518 Monophysite
Constantinople Timothy I 511-17 Monophysite
Antioch Severus 512-18 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy III 518-35 Monophysite
Constantinople Anthimus 535-36 Monophysite
Alexandria Theodosius 535-38 Monophysite
Antioch Sergius c.542-c.557 Monophysite
Antioch Paul “the Black” c.557-578 Monophysite
Alexandria Damianus 570-c.605 Monophysite
Antioch Peter Callinicum 578-91 Monophysite
Constantinople Sergius 610-38 Monothelite
Antioch Anthanasius c.621-629 Monothelite
Alexandria Cyrus c.630-642 Monothelite
Constantinople Pyrrhus 638-41 Monothelite
Antioch Macedonius 640-c.655 Monothelite
Constantinople Paul II 641-52 Monothelite
Constantinople Peter 652-64 Monothelite
Antioch Macarius c.655-681 Monothelite
Constantinople John VI 711-15 Monothelite

Brief Summary:

These historical facts may be briefly summarized as follows: All three of the great Eastern sees were under the jurisdiction of heretical patriarchs simultaneously during five different periods: 357-60 (Arian), 475-77, 482-96, and 512-17 (all Monophysite), and 640-42 (Monothelite): a total of 26 years, or 9% of the time from 357 to 642. At least two out of three of the sees suffered under the yoke of a heterodox “shepherd” simultaneously for 112 years, or 33% of the period from 341 to 681 (or, two-thirds heretical for one-third of the time), and at least 248 of these same years saw one or more of the sees burdened with sub-orthodox ecclesiastical leaders: an astonishing 73% rate (277 years, or 53% from 190 to 715). Thus the East, as represented by its three greatest bishops, was at least one-third heretical for nearly three-quarters of the time over a 340-year span. If we examine each city separately, we find, for example, that between 475 and 675, the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch were outside the Catholic orthodox faith for 41%, 55%, and 58% of the time respectively. Furthermore, these deplorable conditions often manifested themselves for long, unbroken terms: Antioch and Alexandria were Monophysite for 49 and 63 straight years (542-91 and 475-538 respectively), while Constantinople, the seat of the Byzantine Empire and the “New Rome,” was embroiled in the Monothelite heresy for 54 consecutive years (610-64). There were at least 42 heretical Patriarchs of these sees between 190 and 711.
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these heresies and their hunger for power made very difficult for the Godly patriarchs to stand with the catholic church. then excuses were made like the Filioque to give them reason to break away. according to the Council on the Creed the catholic church has not committed any heresy against the Creed.

PEAVE AND LOVE
 
wisdomseeker said:
that is for you, since heresies happened in your part of the world.
nice try though.
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Okay guys, your going too far now. We’ve had popes who’ve been heretical and heresies are the great burden of the West, lest we forget that Protestantism was born in the bosom of the West.
 
jam070406 said:
The West was never Orthodox. Although Rome was correct (orthodox) in teaching. Orthodox was the name adopoted for the many various eastern churches after the split in 1054. The early Church was the Catholic Church with the supreme Church being at Rome, as the Fathers have said in many letters. 👍
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I think his point is that at one time, the West and the East held the same teachings, those which the Orthodox still profess to maintain…
wisdomseeker said:
these heresies and their hunger for power made very difficult for the Godly patriarchs to stand with the catholic church. then excuses were made like the Filioque to give them reason to break away. according to the Council on the Creed the catholic church has not committed any heresy against the Creed.

PEAVE AND LOVE
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This has been said before: The Orthodox didn’t “break away.” They were sent away by an out-of-line Cardinal…
 
wisdomseeker said:
"The patriarch often attempted to bolster his position in the universal Church to give himself more leverage in dealing with the emperor, and this usually brought him into conflict with Rome.
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Details?
During the years of conflict between East and West, the Roman pontiff remained firm, defending the Catholic faith against heresies and unruly or immoral secular powers, especially the Byzantine emperor. The first conflict came when Emperor Constantius appointed an Arian heretic as patriarch. Pope Julian excommunicated the patriarch in 343, and Constantinople remained in schism until John Chrysostom assumed the patriarchate in 398.
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The Creed was composed in 381 in Constantinople. I teach history: that’s between 343 and 398.
Ironically, in the Church’s eighth-century struggle against the Iconoclastic heresy (which sought to eliminate all sacred images), it was the pope and the Western bishops mainly who fought for the Catholic practice of venerating icons, which is still very much a part of Orthodox liturgy and spirituality. The patriarch of Constantinople sided with the heretical, iconoclastic emperors."
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You mean the one the emperor installed: Germanos was retired when iconoclasm was proclaimed, his successor Anastasios switched after become patriarch to defend icons (for which he was tortured), Tarasaios presided over the Seventh Ecumenical Council, etc.

In the West, the Council of Frankfort condemned the Seventh Ecumenical Council.
the Filioque is not the real reason for the break of the Church.
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Is this a quote, or your contribution?

Btw, you failed to name your source, the write up on Catholic Answers on the Orthodox.
 
wisdomseeker said:
“All the churches of Christ salute you. 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not Christ our Lord but their own belly: and by pleasing speeches and good words seduce the hearts of the innocent. 19 For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good and simple in evil. 20 And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.”

Paul did not mention anything about being orthodox.
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See, yes he did.

Btw, if you are just going on terms, he didn’t mention Catholic either. Let alone a pope.
 
jam070406 said:
Oh! I thought you believed the Pope was incapable of excommunicating his equal?? How the tide turns when it seems to fit your argument. :rolleyes:
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Not at all. Just showing that if you buy that argument, you can’t recognize St. Gregory, etc. or recite the Creed. Of course filioque took care of the latter.
The Fathers believed unity with Rome was necessary.
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(This is only one quote among many.)
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Yes, and all have to be torn from context to support your statement.
+++Cyprian of Carthage
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“With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source” (ibid., 59:14).
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Once again, St. Cyprian had no problem enlisting St. Firmilian to write a letter telling Pope Stephen that he only excommunicated himself from the Church.
 
jam070406 said:
The West was never Orthodox. Although Rome was correct (orthodox) in teaching. Orthodox was the name adopoted for the many various eastern churches after the split in 1054. The early Church was the Catholic Church with the supreme Church being at Rome, as the Fathers have said in many letters. 👍
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The term Orthodox predates 1054 by some time: St. John Damascene, whom you claim as a doctor, popularized it three centuries earlier.

Yes, the West was once Orthodox.
 
jam070406 said:
A Chart of Heretical Eastern Patriarchs

Patriarchal See / Patriarch / Years / Heresy

Antioch Serapion 190-203 Docetic
Antioch Paul of Samosata 260-269 Modalist
Antioch Eulalius c.322 Arian
Antioch Euphronius c.327-c.329 Arian
Constantinople Eusebius 341-42 Arian
Constantinople Macedonius 342-60 Semi-Arian
Antioch Leontius 344-58 Arian
Alexandria George 357-61 Arian
Antioch Eudoxius 358-60 Arian
Constantinople Eudoxius 360 Arian
Antioch Euzoius 361-78 Arian
Constantinople Nestorius 428-31 Nestorian!
Alexandria Dioscorus 448-51 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy Aelurus 457-60, 475-77 Monophysite
Antioch Peter the Fuller 470,475-7, 482-88 Monophysite
Constantinople Acacius 471-89 Monophysite
Antioch John Codonatus 477,488 Monophysite
Alexandria Peter Mongo 477-90 Monophysite
Antioch Palladius 488-98 Monophysite
Constantinople Phravitas 489-90 Monophysite
Constantinople Euphemius 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria Athanasius II 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria John II 496-505 Monophysite
Alexandria John III 505-518 Monophysite
Constantinople Timothy I 511-17 Monophysite
Antioch Severus 512-18 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy III 518-35 Monophysite
Constantinople Anthimus 535-36 Monophysite
Alexandria Theodosius 535-38 Monophysite
Antioch Sergius c.542-c.557 Monophysite
Antioch Paul “the Black” c.557-578 Monophysite
Alexandria Damianus 570-c.605 Monophysite
Antioch Peter Callinicum 578-91 Monophysite
Constantinople Sergius 610-38 Monothelite
Antioch Anthanasius c.621-629 Monothelite
Alexandria Cyrus c.630-642 Monothelite
Constantinople Pyrrhus 638-41 Monothelite
Antioch Macedonius 640-c.655 Monothelite
Constantinople Paul II 641-52 Monothelite
Constantinople Peter 652-64 Monothelite
Antioch Macarius c.655-681 Monothelite
Constantinople John VI 711-15 Monothelite
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Rome Honorius I 625-638 Monothelite
Rome Victor I 186-201 Ultramontanist
Brief Summary:
Click to expand...
These historical facts may be briefly summarized as follows: All three of the great Eastern sees were under the jurisdiction of heretical patriarchs simultaneously during five different periods: 357-60 (Arian), 475-77, 482-96, and 512-17 (all Monophysite), and 640-42 (Monothelite): a total of 26 years, or 9% of the time from 357 to 642. At least two out of three of the sees suffered under the yoke of a heterodox “shepherd” simultaneously for 112 years, or 33% of the period from 341 to 681 (or, two-thirds heretical for one-third of the time), and at least 248 of these same years saw one or more of the sees burdened with sub-orthodox ecclesiastical leaders: an astonishing 73% rate (277 years, or 53% from 190 to 715). Thus the East, as represented by its three greatest bishops, was at least one-third heretical for nearly three-quarters of the time over a 340-year span. If we examine each city separately, we find, for example, that between 475 and 675, the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch were outside the Catholic orthodox faith for 41%, 55%, and 58% of the time respectively. Furthermore, these deplorable conditions often manifested themselves for long, unbroken terms: Antioch and Alexandria were Monophysite for 49 and 63 straight years (542-91 and 475-538 respectively), while Constantinople, the seat of the Byzantine Empire and the “New Rome,” was embroiled in the Monothelite heresy for 54 consecutive years (610-64). There were at least 42 heretical Patriarchs of these sees between 190 and 711.
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Just some small, brief points:

Honorius was Pope of Rome 625-638, so New Rome was not the only one embroiled in the Monothelite heresy.

Your list doesn’t include St. Gregory Nazianzus, who was not in communion with Rome.

Athansius was elected Pope of Alexandria in 328 and remained so until his death in 373, so I have no interest in the George you list, unless you want to list antipopes in the West, like in the Great Western Schism that lasted 39 years just that time.

How many heretics sat in Rome after 1054?
 
jam070406 said:
A Chart of Heretical Eastern Patriarchs

Patriarchal See / Patriarch / Years / Heresy

Antioch Serapion 190-203 Docetic
Antioch Paul of Samosata 260-269 Modalist
Antioch Eulalius c.322 Arian
Antioch Euphronius c.327-c.329 Arian
Constantinople Eusebius 341-42 Arian
Constantinople Macedonius 342-60 Semi-Arian
Antioch Leontius 344-58 Arian
Alexandria George 357-61 Arian
Antioch Eudoxius 358-60 Arian
Constantinople Eudoxius 360 Arian
Antioch Euzoius 361-78 Arian
Constantinople Nestorius 428-31 Nestorian!
Alexandria Dioscorus 448-51 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy Aelurus 457-60, 475-77 Monophysite
Antioch Peter the Fuller 470,475-7, 482-88 Monophysite
Constantinople Acacius 471-89 Monophysite
Antioch John Codonatus 477,488 Monophysite
Alexandria Peter Mongo 477-90 Monophysite
Antioch Palladius 488-98 Monophysite
Constantinople Phravitas 489-90 Monophysite
Constantinople Euphemius 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria Athanasius II 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria John II 496-505 Monophysite
Alexandria John III 505-518 Monophysite
Constantinople Timothy I 511-17 Monophysite
Antioch Severus 512-18 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy III 518-35 Monophysite
Constantinople Anthimus 535-36 Monophysite
Alexandria Theodosius 535-38 Monophysite
Antioch Sergius c.542-c.557 Monophysite
Antioch Paul “the Black” c.557-578 Monophysite
Alexandria Damianus 570-c.605 Monophysite
Antioch Peter Callinicum 578-91 Monophysite
Constantinople Sergius 610-38 Monothelite
Antioch Anthanasius c.621-629 Monothelite
Alexandria Cyrus c.630-642 Monothelite
Constantinople Pyrrhus 638-41 Monothelite
Antioch Macedonius 640-c.655 Monothelite
Constantinople Paul II 641-52 Monothelite
Constantinople Peter 652-64 Monothelite
Antioch Macarius c.655-681 Monothelite
Constantinople John VI 711-15 Monothelite

Brief Summary:

These historical facts may be briefly summarized as follows: All three of the great Eastern sees were under the jurisdiction of heretical patriarchs simultaneously during five different periods: 357-60 (Arian), 475-77, 482-96, and 512-17 (all Monophysite), and 640-42 (Monothelite): a total of 26 years, or 9% of the time from 357 to 642. At least two out of three of the sees suffered under the yoke of a heterodox “shepherd” simultaneously for 112 years, or 33% of the period from 341 to 681 (or, two-thirds heretical for one-third of the time), and at least 248 of these same years saw one or more of the sees burdened with sub-orthodox ecclesiastical leaders: an astonishing 73% rate (277 years, or 53% from 190 to 715). Thus the East, as represented by its three greatest bishops, was at least one-third heretical for nearly three-quarters of the time over a 340-year span. If we examine each city separately, we find, for example, that between 475 and 675, the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch were outside the Catholic orthodox faith for 41%, 55%, and 58% of the time respectively. Furthermore, these deplorable conditions often manifested themselves for long, unbroken terms: Antioch and Alexandria were Monophysite for 49 and 63 straight years (542-91 and 475-538 respectively), while Constantinople, the seat of the Byzantine Empire and the “New Rome,” was embroiled in the Monothelite heresy for 54 consecutive years (610-64). There were at least 42 heretical Patriarchs of these sees between 190 and 711.
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Great job!👍
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Rome Honorius I 625-638 Monothelite
Rome Victor I 186-201 Ultramontanist

Just some small, brief points:

Honorius was Pope of Rome 625-638, so New Rome was not the only one embroiled in the Monothelite heresy.

Your list doesn’t include St. Gregory Nazianzus, who was not in communion with Rome.

Athansius was elected Pope of Alexandria in 328 and remained so until his death in 373, so I have no interest in the George you list, unless you want to list antipopes in the West, like in the Great Western Schism that lasted 39 years just that time.

How many heretics sat in Rome after 1054?
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Considering the huge list to which you are replying, your response is rather paltry for a history teacher.
 
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