Papal Problems...:(

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Where is your reference to support this? I don;t see any evidence that Father Kung has changed his mind on papal infallibility.
Why a reference? That was merely my personal opinion. Kung, along with Ratzinger, were two of the architects of Vatican II. Besides that, they are personal friends. I could think of a few things they could discuss over dinner besides theology 👍
 
. Btw, will you get to see him in person next week as he comes to the States? I plan to watch the coverage on EWTN. 🙂
I hope to as well
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Adam:
You should always pay attention to the narrative, as the same person may talk about different topics in the course of their conversation.

Well, the part about who was the greatest is concluded by Christ stating that he is the greatest as he served them and that all the apostles will sit on thrones in the resurrection.
The apostles were arguing among themselves about which one of THEM (i.e. which apostle) was the greatest.

Probably not the smartest or holiest thing to do right after receiving the Eucharist. But Jesus is going to use this argument as the perfect teaching opportunity to enlighten them further.
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Adam:
The part about St. Peter strengthening his brethren deals with Peter’s denial of the Lord and later his restoration to apostolic leadership.
the context of the discourse
  • began with the apostles arguing about who was the greatest among the apostles. (already Satan is sifting)
  • then Jesus begins His discourse which stays on topic regarding the subject of leadership, that there will be ONE as leader of THEM, and Satan will sift all of them, and ends with Jesus (I would suggest ‘again’ ) reminding them that it is Peter who is the leader. (of the apostles)
    therefore, I would say It’s all one context
I’d like to pose this thought

If the apostles at this point are still in doubt over which apostle is their leader,

especially when Jesus is
  • continually singling Simon out from the others, changing his name to Peter, builing His Church on Peter, giving Peter the keys to the kingdom, allowing him to bind and loose on his own, allowing Peter to walk on water, having Peter pay his and Jesus tax to the temple, preaching from Peter’s boat, Peter is the one who will strengthen them after Satan sifts them all like wheat, Jesus prays specifically for Peter, confirming Peter is the leader,
  • Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…
    then they really ARE slow. I don’t think that’s the case at all though, I just think this is how Satan works. He HATES God, HATES authority and those in authority, and even more, HATES obedience to authority. He will cause sedition, and division to authority, and disobedience to authority every chance he gets.
You may disagree with what I’m going to say but I think an incidious way to discount real authority, and obfuscate obedience to real authority, is to introduce the idea of 1st among equals. Everyone has the ligitimate right to say he that’s first is only first in name, but it really means he’s no better than I am. My vote is just as good as his, and I don’t have to obey him.

That’s my opinion and you probably disagree with that.
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Adam:
I think these two issues are distinct. However, we’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this.
I suppose so.
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Adam:
I’ll also add that St. Peter probably wouldn’t want us calling him the greatest, as it is the servant who decreases as his master increases that is the greatest, as that greatest among those born of women, St. John the Forerunner, declared. 🙂
True, yet after saying that, who did Jesus immediately say was even greater than John?
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Adam:
God bless,

Adam
:tiphat: same in return
 
The bottom line is this: you would not be able to use Honorius to nail the infallibilists, because they would simply claim (even if the conditions were met) that heresy taught ex cathedra contradicts previous infallible decrees and is therefore fallible.

There are many loopholes in that definition, to the point that it almost says nothing.
 
The bottom line is this: you would not be able to use Honorius to nail the infallibilists, because they would simply claim (even if the conditions were met) that heresy taught ex cathedra contradicts previous infallible decrees and is therefore fallible.

There are many loopholes in that definition, to the point that it almost says nothing.
Good point. That is the point of Ex Cathedra. It really is a pointless doctrine that was only defined in order to show people that the Pope does have the final word in the Catholic Church. It was merely defining this belief that had long been held.
 
Good point. That is the point of Ex Cathedra. It really is a pointless doctrine that was only defined in order to show people that the Pope does have the final word in the Catholic Church. It was merely defining this belief that had long been held.
That is not true. It developed in the Church, particularly in areas of theology and deep reflection on Scripture. It’s there. The belief didn’t just pop-up one day during the first Vatican Council in 1870 without prior knowledge of it. Doctrines do not just ‘appear’ out of thin air. They are only defined officially when they become challenged or some question arises. Look what was going on in the Church by that time anyway - you had an increase in European hegemony and interference in Church matters - something the Church always deplored. There was also philosophical errors abounding. No, taken in its historical context, the definition of infallibility was a necessary clarification on the teaching Magisterium of the Church and the pope’s role in it.
 
That is not true. It developed in the Church, particularly in areas of theology and deep reflection on Scripture. It’s there. The belief didn’t just pop-up one day during the first Vatican Council in 1870 without prior knowledge of it. Doctrines do not just ‘appear’ out of thin air. They are only defined officially when they become challenged or some question arises. Look what was going on in the Church by that time anyway - you had an increase in European hegemony and interference in Church matters - something the Church always deplored. There was also philosophical errors abounding. No, taken in its historical context, the definition of infallibility was a necessary clarification on the teaching Magisterium of the Church and the pope’s role in it.
I agree with you one hundred percent. Especially because Italian Unification posed a threat to the Papacy. The Papacy not wanting to become intertwined with Politics stated this. The doctrine has always existed, however ti was redefined in 1870. My reason for stating the loopholes existed was because the Council knew that some circumstances were fallible and others were not.
 
Why a reference? That was merely my personal opinion. Kung, along with Ratzinger, were two of the architects of Vatican II. Besides that, they are personal friends. I could think of a few things they could discuss over dinner besides theology 👍
You have nothing written by Father Kung to back up your opinion. On the contrary, Father Kung has taken the time to write an entrie book, explaining why he does not accept the doctrine of papal infallibility. I don;t see one word from him to indicate that he has in any way changed his mind on what he has written.
 
You have nothing written by Father Kung to back up your opinion. On the contrary, Father Kung has taken the time to write an entrie book, explaining why he does not accept the doctrine of papal infallibility. I don;t see one word from him to indicate that he has in any way changed his mind on what he has written.
So, he hasn’t changed. big deal. His theology is quite…dinasauric, to say the least.
 
**Not really, if you look upon the concept as a reflection of the Trinity. God the Father is “first among equals” in the nature of God. This is even defined in the Sign of the Cross, and the words of Baptism. **
Good point Peary, I had not thought of that one. 🙂 I originally had in mind the mathematical dispute of how 1+1+1=1: the idea of three persons being truely distinct yet there only being one divine essence was considered to be a contradiction. Of course, we know that it is really a mystery. I think that your point speaks to the discussion even more.

My original statement that LilyM was replying to was in jest, but also to provoke thought. There are many mysteries of the faith like the Trinity, which critics would call contradictions.

God Bless,
Rosemary
 
Yeah right. St Peter was the infallible Pope of Rome. That’s a good one!
The council took place in the year 49,the same year that,according to the historian Seutonius,the Emporer expelled the Jews from Rome for rioting that occurred over Christ. Peter had been in Rome since the year 42,according to Eusebius and Jerome. After Peter was set free from prison by the angel,he “left for another place”,according to Acts. And when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans,he said that he did not want to build upon another man’s foundation. The other man was Peter. He could have gotten to Rome with the help of the centurion Cornelius.
 
From this article by Mark Bonocore
bringyou.to/apologetics/a30.htm

< Acts 15 and the Leadership of Peter

Well, to begin with, we are told of a crisis in the church of Antioch. Having returned from their first missionary journey, Paul and Barnabas find that:

“Some who had come DOWN FROM JUDAEA were instructing the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.’ Because there arose no little DISSENSION and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul and Barnabas, and some of the others, should GO UP to Jerusalem to the Apostles and presbyters about this question.”

So, what’s happening here? Well, notice that the Scripture says that Paul and Barnabas were DISSENTING. Interesting word, huh? Yet, it reveals that those who were pushing for circumcision were IN AUTHORITY over Paul and Barnabas (who were the younger colleagues at this time). And they were in authority because they came from Judaea/ Jerusalem – seat of the magisterium. So, what’s happening is that agents of the magisterium are coming to Antioch and preaching something that doesn’t seem right (i.e, “the spirit of Vatican II” ;-). Therefore, Paul and Barnabas are going to check to see if the Jerusalem magisterium is really teaching this.

And, yes. It does say that they were going to see the “Apostles and presbyters.” It does not say that they were going to see Peter. However, there’s a good reason. They probably DIDN’T KNOW that Peter was going to be there! Or, possibly, they knew that all the Apostles were gathered there (probably for Mary’s funeral / Assumption).

If you look in Acts 12:17, Peter had fled Jerusalem “for another place” (which Tradition tells us is Rome – both Eusebius and Jerome count Peter’s episcopacy in Rome from this time, which was AD 42). However, the Council of Jerusalem took place in AD 49 and, strangely enough, Peter just happens to be there having disappeared from the narrative of Acts since chapter 12. Why so? Well, as we know from Seutonius, all the Jews were expelled from Rome by Emperor Claudius in AD 49 (same year as the Jerusalem council) and their expulsion was because of a riot over someone named “Chrestus” (i.e., “Christus” or Christ). So, Peter was among the refugees which is why he was back in Jerusalem (thereafter to go on to Antioch, after the Council, and then back to Rome after Claudius’ death, when Jews could return).

So, Peter was at the Council. And, here’s how the Council operated:

“The apostles and presbyters met together TO SEE about the matter. AFTER MUCH DEBATE HAD TAKEN PLACE, PETER got up and said to them…”

And Peter’s teaching on the matter is conveyed through the next several verses. Thereafter, when Peter finishes, it says:

“The whole assembly FELL SILENT…” (That is, the other Apostles and presbyters) … “…and they LISTENED while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.”

So, did the Jerusalem Council operate like the Orthodox model of an Ecumenical council? Or rather like the Catholic model? Here’s how it worked:

The bishops met TO EXAMINE the matter. They DEBATED.

Then, Peter – after listening to the debate – gave HIS TEACHING (vox Petros).

After this, the Council FALLS SILENT (a la, the Tome of Leo).

Then, Paul and Barnabas were permitted to tell about their first missionary journey so as to back up Peter’s teaching with signs from the Holy Spirit (e.g. as in the Immaculate Conception dogma backed up by the miracles at Lourdes).

And, thereafter, James gives a ruling. And, THIS is the only thing that seems unCatholic to some.

However, whereas it does say (in verse 13) how Paul and Barnabas “fall silent,” allowing James to respond, this does not take away from the entire assembly “falling silent” after Peter’s teaching in verse 12. Why? Because we are dealing with 2 Greek words. In 13, the verb is “sigesai” (infinitive aorist: meaning that Paul and Barnabas finished talking). In verse 12, it’s “esigese” (past tense aorist usage – meaning that the assembly REMAINED SILENT after Peter’s address). And, indeed, after Peter speaks, all debate stops. The matter had been settled.

So, why does James speak? Three reasons:

(1) He’s the bishop of Jerusalem. Peter was just a visitor.

(2) What he says, he …like Paul and Barnabas …ties into Peter’s declaration: “Brothers, listen to me. SYMEON has described how God…” etc.

(3) And, most importantly, because James was the leader of the Church’s “Jewish wing.” Remember, in verse 1 and 2 how Acts 15 describes:

"Some who had come DOWN FROM JUDAEA were instructing the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.’

Well? See? They were coming FROM JAMES! They were HIS disciples! Therefore, he renders judgment on the matter for his Jewish party, not as a superior or equal of Peter at all. And, this is MOST clear in verse 19, where it says:

“It is my judgement, therefore, that WE ought to STOP TROUBLING THE GENTILES.”

Well? Who was “troubling” the Gentiles? Not Paul and Barnabas. Not Peter and his disciples, who Baptised the first Gentiles without circumcision. So, who? ONLY the Jewish Christians under James. Therefore, it is NOT the whole Church, but only the “Jewish party” that James is giving a “judgment” to.

So again, the Council of Jerusalem was not an Ecumenical Council by Byzantine Orthodox definition. Rather, it was COMPLETELY based on the Petrine teaching office: the magisterium of the Church. >
 
However I don’t know how this applies to the Bishop of Rome.
Are you referring to my post above yours?

If so then…

I think that the basic point should be that first among equals is not a contradictory statement. Peary applies it to the Trinity, and I think he has done this aptly, whether or not he finds that it applies to the Pope.

It is not enough to say that something is contradictory, because many examples can be given of “first among equals” where first is very obviously Not referring to something superior. Stupid Example: Like if I said that there were eight balls in a jar that are of equal weight and color and I pulled one out; I could call it the “first among equals.” Because it was removed numerically first.

When the formula applied to the Pope is rejected as contradictory, it is because it is already presumed that the Pope is superior to other bishops in such a way that he is not equal to them, i.e. the common Roman understanding of Papal Supremacy. It seems that posters here have taken this idea, and restricted the meaning of first to superiority. For example:
'“First” by definition means superior, not equal.
I do not have a problem with the formula. I think that it does have an orthodox praxis in the Church, even much along the lines of what our Orthodox brethren suggest. In another analogy to the Trinity, I think that there is a proper element of Mystery, which need not be defined, lest its meaning be lost.

In what we learn about the sacrament of ordination for Catholics is that the Pope is in fact equal to all other bishops, for he is ordained a bishop, and becoming Pope gives him no extra sacramental character beyond what all who are members of the Episcopacy have. The Pope and all other bishops are entirely equal, yet, as has already been pointed out, it was Peter who was called upon to support his fellow Apostle in this ministry. It seems, that this should be a starting point in understanding firstness.

God Bless,
Rosemary

P.S. If I have not answered the aim of your question, please redirect me.
 
Interesting as this thread is, it’s actually exceeded the 1,000 post limit. Perhaps the discussion could be continued in a new one?
 
The council took place in the year 49,the same year that,according to the historian Seutonius,the Emporer expelled the Jews from Rome for rioting that occurred over Christ. Peter had been in Rome since the year 42,according to Eusebius and Jerome. After Peter was set free from prison by the angel,he “left for another place”,according to Acts. And when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans,he said that he did not want to build upon another man’s foundation. The other man was Peter. He could have gotten to Rome with the help of the centurion Cornelius.
I don’t think any one is disputing whether St. Peter was in Rome or not. That is universally agreed to by anyone who knows anything about history.
 
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