Papal Problems...:(

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This one fact, that a Great Council, universally received afterwards without hesitation throughout the Church, and presided over by Papal legates, pronounced the dogmatic decision of a Pope heretical, and anathematized him by name as a heretic is a proof, clear as the sun at noonday, that the notion of any peculiar enlightenment or in errancy of the Popes was then utterly unknown to the whole Church**(Janus (Johann Joseph Ignaz von Dollinger), The Pope and the Council (Boston: Roberts, 1870), p. 61).**
 
LOL. St Peter’s seat is not limited to Rome.

Cyprian was talking about the Chair of Peter in Rome.

None of your quotes (as usual) prove the innovated doctrine of papal supremacy/infallibility. 1870.

The quotes show that papal supremacy and infallibility was an acknowleged reality in the Church.

What Vatican 1 did was make papal infallibility into a defined doctrine.
 
Mickey,
Im sorry if I came off harsh, I should not have lost my temper, but I do think your style of posting does not help the discussion often times.
You have to keep in mind that Mickey is a new covert to the EO Church. Those who often leave the Church carry an anti-Catholic zeal, even if they attempt to hide it.
 
The quotes show that papal supremacy and infallibility was an acknowleged reality in the Church.
Not until 1870.
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anthony022071:
What Vatican 1 did was make papal infallibility into a defined doctrine. What Vatican I did was to define an innovation. 🤷
 
Those who often leave the Church carry an anti-Catholic zeal, even if they attempt to hide it.
And one must always keep in mind that E & W fancies himself a reader of hearts. But youth is idealistic. 😃

PS–I did not leave the Church. I entered it. 😉
 
Session XIII: The holy council said:
After we had reconsidered, according to the promise which we had made to your highness, the doctrinal letters of Sergius, at one time patriarch of this royal God protected city to Cyrus, who was then bishop of Phasius and to Honorius some time Pope of Old Rome, as well as the letter of the latter to the same Sergius, we find that these documents are quite foreign to the apostolic dogmas, to the declarations of the holy Councils, and to all the accepted Fathers, and that they follow the false teachings of the heretics; therefore we entirely reject them, and execrate them as hurtful to the soul. But the names of those men whose doctrines we execrate must also be thrust forth from the holy Church of God, namely, that of Sergius some time bishop of this God-preserved royal city who was the first to write on this impious doctrine; also that of Cyrus of Alexandria, of Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, who died bishops of this God preserved city, and were like minded with them; and that of Theodore sometime bishop of Pharan, all of whom the most holy and thrice blessed Agatho, Pope of Old Rome, in his suggestion to our most pious and God preserved lord and mighty Emperor, rejected, because they were minded contrary to our orthodox faith, all of whom we define are to be subject to anathema. And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines.
(Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, The Seven Ecumenical Councils, pp. 342-344).**
 
logos prosphoneticos

“Therefore we punish with exclusion and anathema, Theodore of Pharan, Sergius, Paul, Pyrrhus, and Peter; also Cyrus, and with them Honorius, formerly bishop of Rome, as he followed them.”
To your posts #'s 92, 93, 94, & 95

I refer you to your own post when you write (in blue)

Pope Leo II (682-683) confirmed the Council’s condemnation and stated: (my comments in red)

"[Honorius] did not illuminate this apostolic see with the doctrine of apostolic tradition, but permitted her who was undefiled to be polluted by profane teaching." (10)

(Who was doing the profane teaching here? Not Honorious. He was silent on the matter. It was Sergius doing the teaching, and the others with him. Honorius didn’t condemn Sergius. And he was condemned for it)

"[Honorius did not] as became the apostolic authority, extinguish the flame of heretical teaching in its first beginning, but fostered it by his negligence." (11)
(Sergius was the source, but Honorius by his tolerance of him, didn’t condemn Sergius, which was negligence on Honorius part )

"…he permitted the immaculate faith to be subverted." (17)
(Strangely, silence from Honorius was viewed as permission. :confused: )

The council did not say that Honorus taught, defined, or said this should be held as belief for the Church. That is fact. So infallibility was not the issue here. If Honorius defined, taught and said the Church must believe it, THEN you have a point.
 
And I refer you to this:

Session XVIII: But as the author of evil, who, in the beginning, availed himself of the aid of the serpent, and by it brought the poison of death upon the human race, has not desisted, but in like manner now, having found suitable instruments for working out his will we mean Theodorus, who was bishop of Pharan, Sergius, Pyrrhus…**and moreover, Honorius, who was Pope of the elder Rome…), has actively employed them in raising up for the whole Church the stumbling blocks of one will and one operation in the two natures of Christ our true God, one of the Holy Trinity; thus disseminating, in novel terms, amongst the orthodox people, an heresy similar to the mad and wicked doctrine of the impious Apollinaris **
(Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, The Seven Ecumenical Councils, pp. 342-344).

Read the sessions of the council. They speak for themselves. This is not brain surgery guys!
 
And one must always keep in mind that E & W fancies himself a reader of hearts. But youth is idealistic. 😃

PS–I did not leave the Church. I entered it. 😉
Oh, goodness Mickey, I do not even begin to suggest that I can read your heart, but I have seen your actions all over the net. I suppose age is inflexible.
 
  • The Council condemns Honorius specifically as a heretic and anathematized him in his official capacity as pope and not as a private theologian.
  • He is condemned for following after and confirming the heresy of montheletism.
  • He is condemned for actively disseminating and propagating heretical teachings in his official capacity as pope which affected the whole Church.
 
Not until 1870.

What do you think was being acknowledged in those quotes?
How could Honorius have taught a heresy when the Third Council of Constantinople said: “Peter’s Apostolic Church has never departed from the way of truth into any error whatsoever.” ?

Or when the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869) said: “in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has ever been preserved free from stain.” ?

cathcorn.org/foof/11.html

< The Eighth General Council, held in Constantinople in 869, contains the following solemn profession of faith: “Salvation primarily depends upon guarding the rule of right faith. And since we cannot pass over the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who says, ‘Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church,’ what was said is confirmed by facts, because in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved immaculate, and holy doctrine has been proclaimed. Not wishing, then, to be separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope to merit to be in the one communion which the Apostolic See preaches, in which See is the full and true solidity of the Christian religion.”

This Council clearly declares that immaculate doctrine has always been preserved and preached in the Roman See. But how could this be said of her, if the Roman See ever fell into error, and how could that See be preserved from error, if the Roman Pontiffs presiding over it ever erred in faith?

In the Second General Council of Lyons (1274), the Greek Bishops made the following profession of faith: "The holy Roman Church possesses full primacy and principality over the universal Catholic Church, which primacy, with the plenitude of power, she truly and humbly acknowledges to have received from our Lord Himself, in the person of Blessed Peter, Prince or Head of the Apostles, whose successor the Roman Pontiff is; and as the Roman See, above all others, is bound to defend the truth of faith, so, also, if any questions on faith arise, they ought to be defined by her judgment.

Here the Council of Lyons avows that the Roman Pontiffs have the power to determine definitely, and without appeal, any questions of faith which may arise in the Church; in other words, the Council acknowledges them to be the supreme and infallible arbiters of faith.

“We define,” says the Council of Florence (1439), at which also were present the Bishops of the Greek and the Latin Church, “we define that the Roman Pontiff is the successor of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and the true Vicar of Christ, the Head of the whole Church, the Father and Doctor of all Christians, and we declare that to him, in the person of Blessed Peter, was given, by Jesus Christ our Savior, full power to feed, rule and govern the universal Church.”

The Pope is here called the true Vicar or representative of Christ in this lower kingdom of His Church militant–that is, the Pope is the organ of our Savior, and speaks His sentiments in faith and morals. But if the Pope erred in faith and morals he would no longer be Christ’s Vicar and true representative. Our minister in England, for instance, would not truly represent our Government if he was not the organ of its sentiments. The Roman Pontiff is called the Head of the whole Church–that is, the visible Head. Now the Church, which is the Body of Christ, is infallible. It is, as St. Paul says, “without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing.” But how can you suppose an infallible body with a fallible head? How can an erring head conduct a body in the unerring ways of truth and justice?

He is declared by the same Council to be the Father and Doctor of all Christians. How can you expect an unerring family under an erring Father? >
 
This step into Monotheletism, which he was first to make, is the famous fall of Honorius, for which the Sixth ecumenical council condemned him (681) a condemnation which, until the early Middle Ages, would be repeated by all popes at their installation, since on such occasions they had to confess the faith of the ecumenmical councils. It is understandable, therefore, that all the critics of the doctrine of papal infallibility in later centuries—Protestants, Orthodox and antiinfallibilists at Vatican I in 1870 would refer to this case. Some Roman Catholic apologists try to show that the expressions used by Honorius could be understood in an orthodox way, and that there is no evidence that he deliberately wished to proclaim anything else than the traditional faith of the Church. They also point out quite anachronistically that the letter to Sergius was not a formal statement, issued by the pope ex cathedra, using his charisma of infallibility, as if such a concept existed in the seventh century. Without denying the pope’s good intentions which can be claimed in favor of any heresiarch of history, it is quite obvious that his confession of one will, at a crucial moment and as Sergius himself was somewhat backing out before the objections of Sophronius, not only condoned the mistakes of others, but actually coined a heretical formula, the beginning of a tragedy from which the Church (including the orthodox successors of Honorius on the papal throne) would suffer greatly
(John Meyendorff, Imperial Unity and Christian Division (Crestwood:St. Vladimir’s, 1989), p. 353).
 
What do you think was being acknowledged in those quotes?
How could Honorius have taught a heresy when the Third Council of Constantinople said: “Peter’s **Apostolic Church **has never departed from the way of truth into any error whatsoever.”

or when the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869) said: “in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has ever been preserved free from stain.”
It was not a problem for the council to condemn him as a heretic because there was no such innovation as infallibility of the pope to worry about. 🤷

Only after 1870 did apologists have to begin scrambling for an explanation to the Honorius dilemma. :hmmm:
 
People.
if you are looking for perfection in people to identify the True Church you are in the wrong place. for there is no such a thing. only Jesus is perfect. Jesus church has many saints also many sinners. this church suffers opposition from everyone secular world, protestants, eastern churches, atheists, and everyone who is jaleous of the authority that sh has and will face opposition until Jesus comes back. and that is why i love this church so much. she is quiet and patient and faithull to the Lord. it remains fearless.

:extrahappy:
 
It was not a problem for the council to condemn him as a heretic because there was no such innovation as infallibility of the pope to worry about. 🤷

Only after 1870 did apologists have to begin scrambling for an explanation to the Honorius dilemma. :hmmm:
Papal infallibility was not a doctrine that was invented in 1870. That is just an absurd claim. The west had held such a concept for centuries. It was simply defined in 1870. You know this.
 
It was not a problem for the council to condemn him as a heretic because there was no such innovation as infallibility of the pope to worry about.

Infallibility was already a given.

Signatories of the “Formula of Hormisdas” (519 AD) to restore union after the Acacian Schism (484 AD):

“[We agree that] in the Apostolic See the Catholic Religion is always kept immaculate…"

That means that the doctrines of the pope are always pure.

Only after 1870 did apologists have to begin scrambling for an explanation to the Honorius dilemma.

Pope John IV,Pope Leo 2 and St. Maximos explained the case of Honorius.
See posts 81 and 82.
 
I’m surprised anyone even thinks it matters whether or not Pope Honorius was a heretic or not!

For my money, I don’t think he actually was a heretic himself; his fault seems mainly to lie in the fact that he should’ve and could’ve been more vocal and forceful in combatting heresy.

HOWEVER, it does not matter whether or not he was a heretic. That has NOTHING to do with Papal Infallibility, and the fact that my well-intentioned fellow Catholics are even entertaining these Eastern Orthodox by acting like it matters are going about the wrong way and causing confusion.

We can EASILY give those who believe Pope Honorius was personally a heretic (although the evidence doesn’t seem to support this) and still win the argument. Sheesh. If these threads didn’t go a mile a minute I would try to get an argument in edgewise.
 
Papal infallibility was not a doctrine that was invented in 1870. That is just an absurd claim. The west had held such a concept for centuries. It was simply defined in 1870. You know this.
Some people undoubtedly held the theological opinion before the Council. The making of a dogma for it was the invention.

It is not an Apostolic teaching by any means. One may present all types of quotes of the Fathers supporting some type of primacy of the See at Rome, but the theory of the Bishop of Rome having a monopoly on this charism of the church is very modern, and quite different from anything people knew of for many centuries.

If it had a remained a theological opinion, it would be rather harmless, an entertaining theory. Now it is used as an excuse to damn people who can’t get their heads around it. That is why it such a serious error.

At this point in Christian history every new dogma is just another excuse to damn people. Christ did not hang on the cross for this.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter." Matt 23:13 NAB

May the Lord have mercy on us all.
 
Only after 1870 did apologists have to begin scrambling for an explanation to the Honorius dilemma. :hmmm:
It didn’t take any work at all. Honorius didn’t teach, define, nor tell the Church Universal to believe in monothelitism. Those are the essential ingredients to proclaiming faith and morals infallibly. If he did that with monothelitism, then you’d have a point. But he didn’t. And that’s that. :tiphat:
 
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