Paradox of the beginning of creation

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This paradox is about the beginning of creation. We discus two timeless and temporal God that both of them are logically impossible. First let discuss timeless God.

Timeless God: Timeless means that God is not subject to the time. This means that there exist not any time point of reference that God decide to create. The problem however is why then universe has a specific age.

Temporal God: This means that universe can have specific age. The problem however is that this God should have lived eternally in another word God has lived from eternal past to now. This is however problematic since God cannot wait from eternal past to now.
 
Bahman said:
Timeless God: Timeless means that God is not subject to the time. This means that there exist not any time point of reference that God decide to create. The problem however is why then universe has a specific age.
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This statement is untrue. Just because God is outside of time does not mean he cannot create time. We are perfectly capable of perceiving time and living in it without God having to do so as well.
 
Bahman said:
This paradox is about the beginning of creation. We discus two timeless and temporal God that both of them are logically impossible. First let discuss timeless God.

Timeless God: Timeless means that God is not subject to the time. This means that there exist not any time point of reference that God decide to create. The problem however is why then universe has a specific age.

Temporal God: This means that universe can have specific age. The problem however is that this God should have lived eternally in another word God has lived from eternal past to now. This is however problematic since God cannot wait from eternal past to now.
Click to expand...
The above poster has already pointed out an issue, but here’s another one: You have not defined time.

Time seems to have a valid definition as the label we apply to our experience of sequential changes in the universe. Thus the ‘age of the universe’ is simply ‘how many changes have occurred since it’s creation’.
 
Bahman said:
This paradox is about the beginning of creation. We discus two timeless and temporal God that both of them are logically impossible. First let discuss timeless God.

Timeless God: Timeless means that God is not subject to the time. This means that there exist not any time point of reference that God decide to create. The problem however is why then universe has a specific age.

Temporal God: This means that universe can have specific age. The problem however is that this God should have lived eternally in another word God has lived from eternal past to now. This is however problematic since God cannot wait from eternal past to now.
Click to expand...
You are personifying God, again. People are trying to let you know that approach is incorrect.
Jews, Christians and Muslims understand the attributes of God and tend not to personify these attributes unless it will help people understand God. Other religions and schools of thought just don’t get it.
 
dshix said:
This statement is untrue. Just because God is outside of time does not mean he cannot create time. We are perfectly capable of perceiving time and living in it without God having to do so as well.
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I agree. God created a finite universe with space and time. He is not subject to these concepts as we (as humans) are. I don’t see the paradox.
 
Glassjester said:
Because He created them.

For the same reason that Shakespeare wasn’t subject to the concept of Macbeth.
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And how do you know God created space and time? Can it reasonably be said that when the Big Bang occurred time and space began. No cause.
 
NM505StKate said:
And how do you know God created space and time? Can it reasonably be said that when the Big Bang occurred time and space began. No cause.
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You’ve asked two separate questions. I’ll give two separate answers.
  1. Can we reason that time and space began with the big bang? Yes.
  2. Can we reason that the big bang was uncaused? No.
So we’re left with a finite, physical, temporal universe, the cause of which must be nonphysical and atemporal (immaterial and eternal).
 
Glassjester said:
You’ve asked two separate questions. I’ll give two separate answers.
  1. Can we reason that time and space began with the big bang? Yes.
  2. Can we reason that the big bang was uncaused? No.
So we’re left with a finite, physical, temporal universe, the cause of which must be nonphysical and atemporal (immaterial and eternal).
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How do you arrive at that conclusion? As of now we don’t know what set off the Big Bang but it is a god of the gaps fallacy to say it was a supernatural cause. Maybe that singular point always existed.
 
Glassjester said:
Not possible. This is demonstrable fact.

For that physical object to exist, time and space needed to exist.
Do we agree on that?
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Sure then can it be possible time and space always existed without a beginning. Only thing that changed was our perception of such things?
 
NM505StKate said:
Sure then can it be possible time and space always existed without a beginning.
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Let’s go with that, and see what it implies.

Let’s say time and space always existed.
Then, pick any point in time. Today’s date, for example.
What is the length of the period of time that has passed up to this point?
 
If we trace this back biblically, it is rather conceptually stimulating. We must understand that science and faith will never contradict since the supposition of true reasoning converge to one considerable truth.
 
dshix said:
This statement is untrue. Just because God is outside of time does not mean he cannot create time. We are perfectly capable of perceiving time and living in it without God having to do so as well.
Click to expand...
You didn’t get my point. The question is that how our universe have a specific age if God is it outside of time? Our universe could be younger or older. This means that there should exist a point reference in God’s mind about the time of creation but how this point could exist and be reached if God is timeless.
 
Bahman said:
You didn’t get my point. The question is that how our universe have a specific age if God is it outside of time? Our universe could be younger or older. This means that there should exist a point reference in God’s mind about the time of creation but how this point could exist and be reached if God is timeless.
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dummies.com/how-to/content/einsteins-special-relativity.html
However, the spaceship is traveling at a constant speed of half the speed of light (0.5c, as physicists would write it). According to Einstein, this makes no difference to you — you can’t even tell that you’re moving. However, if astronaut Amber were spying on you, as in the bottom of the figure, it would be a different story.
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Amber would see your beam of light travel upward along a diagonal path, strike the mirror, and then travel downward along a diagonal path before striking the detector. In other words, you and Amber would see different paths for the light and, more importantly, those paths aren’t even the same length. This means that the time the beam takes to go from the laser to the mirror to the detector must also be different for you and Amber so that you both agree on the speed of light.
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Are you in the ship or are you Amber???

Which thing is true? which is really happening? Can you prove the beam was straight???

Or can you prove it was diagonal???

Was it both???
 
cjb_914 said:
The above poster has already pointed out an issue, but here’s another one: You have not defined time.
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Time is a variable that we could trace changes by it. So timeless means that God see everything in his eternal now.
cjb_914 said:
Time seems to have a valid definition as the label we apply to our experience of sequential changes in the universe.
Click to expand...
I agree with this definition.
cjb_914 said:
Thus the ‘age of the universe’ is simply ‘how many changes have occurred since it’s creation’.
Click to expand...
The problem is how a timeless God can decide about the act of creation with a specific age when He is timeless? This is something that temporal God can do but that God can not exist as it is illustrated in OP.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
You are personifying God, again. People are trying to let you know that approach is incorrect. Jews, Christians and Muslims understand the attributes of God and tend not to personify these attributes unless it will help people understand God. Other religions and schools of thought just don’t get it.
Click to expand...
Could you please explain where I am personifying God?
 
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