Paradox of the beginning of creation

[SilverShadow22]

But time is an illusion hence God cannot be outside of it.

This is like saying that there is a desert mirage of a city - everyone in the desert sees it - but there can be no one IN the city, seeing the city AS IT IS, because the mirage is not real. If there is an ‘illusion’ then by definition there is someone who sees the truth rather than the illusion, someone not fooled by appearances.

To say that God cannot see the truth behind any illusion is utter nonsense. In fact, you just made my point. Time is relative, and only God sees the absolute, in a way we cannot imagine. So expecting Him to see time like we do, or follow its rules like we do, makes NO SENSE.

 

[Bahman]

Every judgment you make about the spiritual world goes like this:

“The spiritual world “lacks” this or that, so how could this or that happen…”

(example, if there is no space how could God fit the material world, if there is no time (shape and motion) how could God make an act of will and create, etc)

That is responsibility of religious system to tell us about spiritual world using revelation. In case of Christianity, it was responsibility of Jesus to tell us the truth. Church cannot possibly understand the spiritual world since they have no access to spiritual world.

BUT again, saying there is not matter, no space, no time (shape and motion) is not saying that the spiritual world LACKS this things so it is less (in the sense that less things could be done), it transcends them, it is more, so everything that could be made in in the material world also could be made in the spiritual because (AGAIN) the spiritual world is MORE. (for example, the devil sinned, the angels did not)

It is only logical that we, by being subject to time/space, do not understand how could that work, but again, that is because our world is inferior.

Do you have any idea about spiritual world given the fact that you are Christian?

Please excuse any writing/grammar mistake as I am not a native speaker.

Greetings

Your comment was not a proper response to mine.

 

[Bahman]

This is like saying that there is a desert mirage of a city - everyone in the desert sees it - but there can be no one IN the city, seeing the city AS IT IS, because the mirage is not real. If there is an ‘illusion’ then by definition there is someone who sees the truth rather than the illusion, someone not fooled by appearances.

What we experience is only form and motion. We have no sense to experience time. What we call as inner clock is nothing more than motion. Time is a variable we use in our equations which is the result of comparing two motions.

To say that God cannot see the truth behind any illusion is utter nonsense.

I didn’t say that.

In fact, you just made my point. Time is relative, and only God sees the absolute, in a way we cannot imagine. So expecting Him to see time like we do, or follow its rules like we do, makes NO SENSE.

I didn’t say so. All I said was that the time is an illusion so God cannot be inside or outside of it.

 

[LethalMouse]

I didn’t say so. All I said was that the time is an illusion so God cannot be inside or outside of it.

Can someone be in a mirage while someone else is outside it?

You can be in a delusion while others are not. You are applying a really unmoving theory of word usage to maintain your idea…

 

[Bahman]

Can someone be in a mirage while someone else is outside it?

Either ways are possible. We can all be in a mirage ,or some in mirage and some not.

You can be in a delusion while others are not. You are applying a really unmoving theory of word usage to maintain your idea…

I don’t think so. Do you have any sense to experience time? If yes, what is it? We have apparatuses which they have motion to give us an idea about the time, but in reality we just compare two motions, one is the subject of our study and another is our clock.

 

[LethalMouse]

Either ways are possible. We can all be in a mirage ,or some in mirage and some not.

** I don’t think so.** Do you have any sense to experience time? If yes, what is it? We have apparatuses which they have motion to give us an idea about the time, but in reality we just compare two motions, one is the subject of our study and another is our clock.

Seriously? You literally answered in both the affirmative and negative so that after agreeing you can again claim “God cannot be outside time”…lol you just can’t be serious…

 

[davidv]

This is very simple. Consider a state of universe as S0 in a given moment. This state simply represents the location of everything within universe. This state S0 is however is subject to change in the later point, lets call the new state as S1. This change is subjected to laws of nature or God’s intervention, lets call this “L”. This means that we have the following relation between S0 and S1, S1=L(S0). It should be obvious that we have the same relation at the next point, S2=L(S1) etc. This means that we have a series, C={S0, S1, S2, …}. It should be obvious that this series is equal to a movie which each frame is equal to an state of universe. So here we are to understand the conflict. God knows all state of creation, what we called C. God however has to know the state of universe at given time to cause another state. This means that there should exist a point of reference in God’s mind to allow him to cause the next state. This however means that state of mind of God is subject to change which this is not allowed if God is changeless.

This response completely ignores the post your are responding to. It does not begin show why God must see things sequentially.

 

[Bahman]

This response completely ignores the post your are responding to. It does not begin show why God must see things sequentially.

Because each state of universe becomes actual at a given point so if God sustains universe he has to know all the sequence making sure that only one state is actual at a given point. Do you have a better idea?

 

[davidv]

Because each state of universe becomes actual at a given point so if God sustains universe he has to know all the sequence making sure that only one state is actual at a given point. Do you have a better idea?

My better idea is that God does not need to see things in sequence. Therefore the paradox in the OP is only a figment of your imagination.

 

[Bahman]

My better idea is that God does not need to see things in sequence. Therefore the paradox in the OP is only a figment of your imagination.

How God could act then if his act is not sequential?

 

[davidv]

How God could act then if his act is not sequential?

By not being a human.

 

[Bahman]

By not being a human.

I opened a new thread in here.