Paradox of the beginning of creation

[Bahman]

Bahman, I can say with a high degree of certitude that I have never understood any argument you have ever made, because they have all been utter gibberish.

Thank you.

 

[Bahman]

A paradox - a seeming impossibility - is different from what you declared, which is a *logical impossibility. *

Definition of paradox: “A statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.”

Several people found all kinds of flaws in your arguments; you just won’t accept them.

How about you? What is your opinion about my paradox?

 

[LethalMouse]

Definition of paradox: “A statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion thatseemssenseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.”

How about you? What is your opinion about my paradox?

emphasis added. Impossible vs SEEMS. You do not present a “seems” but an IS impossible in a way that basically no one else shares your logic. As stated before, you have denounced EVERY standing theory of the universes existence and declared it literally NOT possible to exist…but we are here.

 

[Bahman]

emphasis added. Impossible vs SEEMS. You do not present a “seems” but an IS impossible in a way that basically no one else shares your logic. As stated before, you have denounced EVERY standing theory of the universes existence and declared it literally NOT possible to exist…but we are here.

So you couldn’t resolve the paradox?

 

[SilverShadow22]

Definition of paradox: “A statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.”

How about you? What is your opinion about my paradox?

My opinion of your paradox is that it isn’t one.

It only ‘seems nonsensical’ to YOU.

Before creation, there was only ‘now’. God did not ‘decide’ to create the world at a given moment, because a given moment did not exist until He created it. You say the laws of time and space break down at the creation point, and yet you also insist that they must have been in effect *prior to * creation.

The only paradox is you, Bahman. The paradox is how you can hold such contradictory beliefs without opening a wormhole in your own mind.

 

[LethalMouse]

So you couldn’t resolve the paradox?

I and many have repeatedly resolved you paradox, you simply ignore it stating “I do not understand you” to half the posts. You ignore and differ points and tell people “How does this relate” etc… You even have atheists and anti Catholics in disagreement with half the stuff you say…you just ignore it all

 

[Bahman]

My opinion of your paradox is that it isn’t one.

It only ‘seems nonsensical’ to YOU.

Before creation, there was only ‘now’. God did not ‘decide’ to create the world at a given moment, because a given moment did not exist until He created it.

I slightly change my argument to get ride of decision.

Timeless God: Timeless means that God is not subject to the time. This means that there exist not any time point of reference that God to create. The problem however is why then universe has a specific age.

Temporal God: This means that universe can have specific age. The problem however is that this God should have lived eternally in another word God has lived from eternal past to now. This is however problematic since God cannot wait from eternal past to now.

You say the laws of time and space break down at the creation point, and yet you also insist that they must have been in effect *prior to * creation.

I didn’t say so. I just claim that the law of physics break down at Big Ban point. The main problem is that why universe has a specific age.

The only paradox is you, Bahman. The paradox is how you can hold such contradictory beliefs without opening a wormhole in your own mind.

I have the same opinion about you.

 

[Bahman]

I and many have repeatedly resolved you paradox, you simply ignore it stating “I do not understand you” to half the posts. You ignore and differ points and tell people “How does this relate” etc… You even have atheists and anti Catholics in disagreement with half the stuff you say…you just ignore it all

Can you please give me the post number in which you resolve my paradox?

I am not anti-anything. We are just having a discussion on what truth is.

 

[LethalMouse]

Can you please give me the post number in which you resolve my paradox?

I am not anti-anything. We are just having a discussion on what truth is.

No I did not say YOU are anti-catholic, I said even they disagree with most of what you say…

And literally like every thread you are repeatedly told the answers to your paradoxes, you just deny them outright or say “I do not understand your point”

 

[SilverShadow22]

Timeless God: Timeless means that God is not subject to the time. This means that there exist not any time point of reference that God to create. The problem however is why then universe has a specific age.

Temporal God: This means that universe can have specific age. The problem however is that this God should have lived eternally in another word God has lived from eternal past to now. This is however problematic since God cannot wait from eternal past to now.

This is a false dichotomy. You are setting up two (apparently) mutually exclusive options that also exclude everything else and asking everyone to pick one, but we can’t, because both are nonsense and neither is true. The ‘paradox’ is resolved with further information and clarification.

God is timeless. The universe is not.

God always existed. The universe did not.

The ‘time point’ at which He began to create, did not exist until the moment He began to create. Time began at the same moment as everything else. (Or possibly a bit sooner.)

Time is a construct, a created thing. Since God exists before time, without time, outside of time, and after time ends, all at once, it is ridiculous to subject Him to His own creation as you are trying to do.

You seem to be forgetting my author analogy. The fact that I chose a specific time to start my book doesn’t mean I had to start it then, and from the perspective of anyone in my book, that was the beginning of time itself. The beginning of the book is their beginning, no matter when it happened from my perspective. Two orders of power (I and my characters) so therefore two co-existing realities (time to them, and time to me) which is not a paradox, but a difference in nature and understanding.

 

[LethalMouse]

Can you please give me the post number in which you resolve my paradox?

Post #70, use that one

 

[Bahman]

This is a false dichotomy. You are setting up two (apparently) mutually exclusive options that also exclude everything else and asking everyone to pick one, but we can’t, because both are nonsense and neither is true. The ‘paradox’ is resolved with further information and clarification.

God is timeless. The universe is not.

God always existed. The universe did not.

The ‘time point’ at which He began to create, did not exist until the moment He began to create. Time began at the same moment as everything else. (Or possibly a bit sooner.)

Time is a construct, a created thing. Since God exists before time, without time, outside of time, and after time ends, all at once, it is ridiculous to subject Him to His own creation as you are trying to do.

You seem to be forgetting my author analogy. The fact that I chose a specific time to start my book doesn’t mean I had to start it then, and from the perspective of anyone in my book, that was the beginning of time itself. The beginning of the book is their beginning, no matter when it happened from my perspective. Two orders of power (I and my characters) so therefore two co-existing realities (time to them, and time to me) which is not a paradox, but a difference in nature and understanding.

You didn’t get my point. Your post is full of errors. Universe has specific age. That means that there should exist a time reference point in God’s mind to create the universe. God is however timeless which means that he could not create a universe with specific age because the time reference point cannot possibly exist in timeless God’s mind.

 

[LethalMouse]

You didn’t get my point. Your post is full of errors. Universe has specific age. That means that there should exist a time reference point in God’s mind to create the universe. God is however timeless which means that he could not create a universe with specific age because the time reference point cannot possibly exist in timeless God’s mind.

It has an age only within it essentially… you are forever the man inside the box

 

[SilverShadow22]

It has an age only within it essentially… you are forever the man inside the box

He’s the man inside the book, who can’t see that, no matter when the author chose to start the book, the first page of the book is always Moment One.

The story starts the moment the story starts. The timeline starts in that moment. For the book and everyone in it, EXISTENCE starts at that moment. This line of questioning is as absurd as my own characters saying that I could not have written their book-world because that would mean I had to choose a time to start it.

The story was in me and in a sense, always was. It’s a an extension of me, an external representation of my ability to (sub)create.

I myself am created; I had to grow and mature; I had to borrow from preexisting concepts and materials; I had to learn the skill of writing (creation). None of that applies to God. But it’s absurd for my characters, who are subordinate to me and don’t even exist if don’t let them, it’s absurd to imagine them questioning me about their origins and when exactly I started to write the book.

Absurd.

It is absurdity at an unimaginably greater magnitude to question the actual God about what moment in time (before Time existed) He decided to write the book.

 

[LethalMouse]

He’s the man inside the book, who can’t see that, no matter when the author chose to start the book, the first page of the book is always Moment One.

The story starts the moment the story starts. The timeline starts in that moment. For the book and everyone in it, EXISTENCE starts at that moment. This line of questioning is as absurd as my own characters saying that I could not have written their book-world because that would mean I had to choose a time to start it.

The story was in me and in a sense, always was. It’s a an extension of me, an external representation of my ability to (sub)create.

I myself am created; I had to grow and mature; I had to borrow from preexisting concepts and materials; I had to learn the skill of writing (creation). None of that applies to God. But it’s absurd for my characters, who are subordinate to me and don’t even exist if don’t let them, it’s absurd to imagine them questioning me about their origins and when exactly I started to write the book.

Absurd.

It is absurdity at an unimaginably greater magnitude to question the actual God about what moment in time (before Time existed) He decided to write the book.

You should write a book titled Absurdity in which the whole point of the book follows a charater trying to get you to succumb to the rules of the book…

… I think you know what name I have in mind for the character

 

[Bahman]

He’s the man inside the book, who can’t see that, no matter when the author chose to start the book, the first page of the book is always Moment One.

The story starts the moment the story starts. The timeline starts in that moment. For the book and everyone in it, EXISTENCE starts at that moment. This line of questioning is as absurd as my own characters saying that I could not have written their book-world because that would mean I had to choose a time to start it.

The story was in me and in a sense, always was. It’s a an extension of me, an external representation of my ability to (sub)create.

I myself am created; I had to grow and mature; I had to borrow from preexisting concepts and materials; I had to learn the skill of writing (creation). None of that applies to God. But it’s absurd for my characters, who are subordinate to me and don’t even exist if don’t let them, it’s absurd to imagine them questioning me about their origins and when exactly I started to write the book.

Absurd.

It is absurdity at an unimaginably greater magnitude to question the actual God about what moment in time (before Time existed) He decided to write the book.

Let me to explain the idea in simpler manner. Let think of all states of universe as a frames of moive including its starting (creation point). God knows all the frames at once because He is omniscient. The problem is that all these states are not actual and one of them should be actual at a time. God is the creator and sustainer of universe so to give the right dynamic to universe he need a reference point which point to the current state of universe. This point change by time and God is timeless/changeless meaning that he cannot have the reference point hence timeless God cannot create and sustain universe.

 

[SilverShadow22]

Let me to explain the idea in simpler manner. Let think of all states of universe as a frames of moive including its starting (creation point). God knows all the frames at once because He is omniscient. The problem is that all these states are not actual and one of them should be actual at a time. God is the creator and sustainer of universe so to give the right dynamic to universe he need a reference point which point to the current state of universe. This point change by time and God is timeless/changeless meaning that he cannot have the reference point hence timeless God cannot create and sustain universe.

You are missing the crucial part:

*No reference point existed until creation began. *

That’s what you don’t seem to understand. Time itself is created. There is no ‘reference point’ without Time. Prior to creation, there was no past or future, there was no this moment or that moment.

So the ‘paradox’ is irrelevant to the actual situation.

Even when He created Time, he remained outside its influence and limits. Nothing changed for Him, only for the storybook characters.

 

[LethalMouse]

Let me to explain the idea in simpler manner. Let think of all states of universe as a frames of moive including its starting (creation point). God knows all the frames at once because He is omniscient. The problem is that all these states are not actual and one of them should be actual at a time. God is the creator and sustainer of universe so to give the right dynamic to universe** he need a reference point **which point to the current state of universe. This point change by time and God is timeless/changeless meaning that he cannot have the reference point hence timeless God cannot create and sustain universe.

Only to the characters inside the movie

As you have said before, “God does not need anything” WE “need” your reference point, not God. We have a reference point within the movie, God requires it not. He can use the one he created or He could change it and make the point start “tomorrow” to us. Which is why she said you were “the man in the book” and by your own analogy…you are the “man in the movie” but you continually swear that the director and writer are bout by your 2hours worth of movie frames…

 

[Bahman]

Only to the characters inside the movie

As you have said before, “God does not need anything” WE “need” your reference point, not God. We have a reference point within the movie, God requires it not. He can use the one he created or He could change it and make the point start “tomorrow” to us. Which is why she said you were “the man in the book” and by your own analogy…you are the “man in the movie” but you continually swear that the director and writer are bout by your 2hours worth of movie frames…

God is timeless and changeless. He sustain the universe too. Everything should be static without the reference point which changes. How a changeless and timeless God could give the correct dynamic to creation?

 

[LethalMouse]

God is timeless and changeless. He sustain the universe too. Everything should be static without the reference point which changes. How a changeless and timeless God could give the correct dynamic to creation?

The movie takes place over 3 weeks, and runtime is 2 hours. IT ALWAYS is 3 weeks 2hrs.

Despite the grander 7months took to shoot the movie, the fact that the movie has existed on tape for 30 years, and despite 2million copies. The movie characters see their existence as 3 weeks and it has a 2 hour runtime.

You are this movie’s character screaming that it could not have taken 7 months to make.

You are the movie’s character screaming that 3 weeks is all there is and it can not have been 30 years.

You demand endlessly that you 3 weeks in 2 hour perception is the fullness of truth. But the audience laughs and goes off into the grander and more robust world…