Parallellism between Mani and Muhammad

[quantumDeus]

Do you think it is really necessery to lie, to disprove Islam?

No, one can disprove Islam with truth.

I didn’t understand. What is that schools?

What? You don’t read your own Qur’an and the associated hadith? There were (at least) two oral quanic traditions during Mo’s lifetime. The two differed and he did not see fit to correct one or the other.

Errancy of transmission existed even while Mo was alive.

[IQUOTE]And how do you do that test of Spiritual Inspiration?

How do I do it? I don’t, the Catholic Church did. It had its criteria and applied it in its determination of canon.

No. The concept of a BOOK is completely human invention. Now, if it is written in a book or in a CD, those kind of clims are neither provable or disprovable. So the argument on that, is just waste of time. What we know is how Mohamed (pbuh) got it. It wasn’t revealed in a book.

So is the concept of a pen a human invention, yet it is written in the Qur’an of the pen. As well as the book. Your rebuttal gives proof from within Islam that the Qur’an is a a human fabrication.

 

[Khalfan]

hola

actually in the case of the ‘gospel of barnabas’ it did not even exist at the time canon was finalized… the turks created it in the 16th century, the anachronisms and general lack of knowledge (like sailing up to nazareth) is comical.

i am a little bemused by muslims’ pushiness over the legitimacy of the ‘gospel of barnabas.’ one time i was very frustrated that the person i was talking to ignored everything i said, so i simply responded ‘yay! we have found a perfect uncorrupted bible! this means that we no longer need the quran, since the reason for it being sent is now moot’

he has not responded to my email in 8 months now…

que Dios te bendiga

But similar story is found in Apocalypse of Peter as well.

“Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them.”

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said “What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?”

The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.”

But I, when I had looked, said “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place.” But he said to me, “I have told you, “Leave the blind alone!” And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame.”

 

[Khalfan]

It isn’t that difficult to understand, but I think you need to suspend logic and reason to accept it.

It is clearly visible.

While Islam suggest to have faith rely on logic and reasons, Christianity suggests to have faith rely on Spirit (Miracle) and Mysteries (myth).

 

[Khalfan]

The Qur’an alone is supposed to be sufficient. A Holy Spirit is a blasphemy in Islam.

When I looked at Islam as a faith, it failed at every level to withstand the light of truth. The Catholic Church withstood such scrutiny.

It is your view of it. More than a bollion got the light of truth already and it is still growing according to your own european news channels.

 

[quantumDeus]

It is clearly visible.

While Islam suggest to have faith rely on logic and reasons, Christianity suggests to have faith rely on Spirit (Miracle) and Mysteries (myth).

The Qur’an fails to hold up to logic and reason; particularly when you put the context of the Qur’an in the light of the hadith and with secular history (based on archaeological and historical fact).

 

[Khalfan]

No, one can disprove Islam with truth.

Why don’t you do that then, instead of lying?

What? You don’t read your own Qur’an and the associated hadith? There were (at least) two oral quanic traditions during Mo’s lifetime. The two differed and he did not see fit to correct one or the other.

Errancy of transmission existed even while Mo was alive.

Which Hadees? And what was the result?

What I know is, there is (it still exists) 7 styles of reading of Quran which prophet (pbuh) allowed to read. And hadeeses are,

The Qur’an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.510).

Ibn Abbas reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Gabriel taught me to recite in one style. I replied to him and kept asking him to give more (styles), till he reached seven modes (of recitation). Ibn Shihab said: It has reached me that these seven styles are essentially one, not differing about what is permitted and what is forbidden. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p.390)

How do I do it? I don’t, the Catholic Church did. It had its criteria and applied it in its determination of canon.

Do you know what is that criteria? Do you believe (at least) the four gospels are Spiritually inspired by the same Holy Ghost?

So is the concept of a pen a human invention, yet it is written in the Qur’an of the pen. As well as the book. Your rebuttal gives proof from within Islam that the Qur’an is a a human fabrication.

My dear, are out of your mind? Quran tells about many man made meterial. Does that say, all of them exists in the heaven? Do any Muslim ever claimed that?

A book that made of paper, we see today is man made.

 

[Khalfan]

The Qur’an fails to hold up to logic and reason; particularly when you put the context of the Qur’an in the light of the hadith and with secular history (based on archaeological and historical fact).

Another topic.

How did you say Quran failed?

I suggest the below video to watch.

‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science’

youtube.com/watch?v=fw3do0TLv6o

 

[Booklover]

I appreciate your study. I think, anyone, who is interested in God and faith, have to have their own search rather than it comes from parents. Let me tell you one of my experiences.

Since I am very much concerned about my God, my faith and my life, I follow Islam in every aspect in the day to day life. And at the same time I do compare and study the same events with other major religion practices like in Christianity and Hinduism.

I have 3 Christian colleagues and I use to discuss many issues with them. When I quoted some of the Bible verses for explanation, like the prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) being in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, they couldn’t answer properly, and the answer was,

“To understand Bible, you have to have Holy Spirit in you”

I asked “How do I get the Spirit?”

They said “Pray for it”.

I asked “Don’t you think, it is a fair demand to know what is it (Holy Spirit) before I pray for it?”

They said “You may study, what is Holy Spirit. Its mentioned in the Bible”. I got puzzled. I asked them,

“What is the first step,

Read the Bible, to know and have the Spirit

or

Have the Spirit, to read and understand the Bible?”

As you have found convincing reasons to have faith in Christianity, I have found reasons have faith in Islam. I still prefer learning about other faiths and I appreciate your interest to study Islam.

I bet none of your Christian colleagues are Catholic, they sound more like the sola scriptura type of Christian!

Vickie

 

[Jayda]

But similar story is found in Apocalypse of Peter as well.

“Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them.”

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said “What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?”

The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.”

But I, when I had looked, said “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place.” But he said to me, “I have told you, “Leave the blind alone!” And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame.”

hola

docetism is one of the many heresies that mohamed incorporated into his new religion. but just like the idea of a ‘final prophet,’ ‘corrupted scripture’ and ‘jinn’ it was not his original idea.

this particular heresy he stole from arabian gnostics, who were a syncretic religion that existed from about the 1st century into the 11th century.

they actually had many writings, including the ‘gnostic apocalypse of Peter’ which is not to be confused (as you have done) with the ‘apocalypse of Peter.’ while the apocalypse of Peter was canon briefly, the gnostic apocalypse of Peter was never canon since it came from pagans (not an apostle) with heavy pagan (not christian) ideas… like dualism, gnosis and docetism.

given the significant amount of influence gnosticism had on the creation of islam it is not surprising to see gnostic doctrines, taken directly from gnostic texts, in islamic beliefs and in islamic texts.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Khalfan]

I bet none of your Christian colleagues are Catholic, they sound more like the sola scriptura type of Christian!

Vickie

One was pentacost. One CSI. One Marthoma catholic. I don’t know the difference.

 

[Khalfan]

hola

docetism is one of the many heresies that mohamed incorporated into his new religion. but just like the idea of a ‘final prophet,’ ‘corrupted scripture’ and ‘jinn’ it was not his original idea.

this particular heresy he stole from arabian gnostics, who were a syncretic religion that existed from about the 1st century into the 11th century.

they actually had many writings, including the ‘gnostic apocalypse of Peter’ which is not to be confused (as you have done) with the ‘apocalypse of Peter.’ while the apocalypse of Peter was canon briefly, the gnostic apocalypse of Peter was never canon since it came from pagans (not an apostle) with heavy pagan (not christian) ideas… like dualism, gnosis and docetism.

given the significant amount of influence gnosticism had on the creation of islam it is not surprising to see gnostic doctrines, taken directly from gnostic texts, in islamic beliefs and in islamic texts.

que Dios te bendiga

Now, that is a reason to exclude it from the Bible. In fact any of the book existing in the living bible could ever confirm rather than assume the original writer. 3rd party narration are visible NT and OT books very well. None of the books are undersigned by the writer except Luke and Luke wrote it for theophelus (who lived 100-200 AD) and he was not an eye witness for any event in the life of Jesus (pbuh).

Proving the Spiritual inspiration in any book is impossible. Because it a Christian concept, not truth. If it is true, it won’t help all the sects to lead the Christianity into different directions. You Catholics believe, Holy spirit is with you. Ellen g . White of SDA claims she too had it. If we go to Pentecost, they too have it and it heals many sick.

Allegation of copying is long answered. Jesus (pbuh) was not copying from the writings of Moses (pbuh). they both had seperate revelations from God. Jesus (pbuh) preached the same message of one God that Moses (pbuh) preached. Does it mean Jesus (pbuh) was copying Moses (pbuh)? I don’t think so. If I say a truth that some one already said, doesn’t mean I am copying. Message of One God is a truth. It was preached since Adam (pbuh) till Mohamed (pbuh).

It is confirmed by historians that different ideas on the life and ascension of Jesus (pbuh) existed as everyone knows the first church burned many of manuscripts that they denied with the same stupid divine inspirational controversy. If there is any scripture exists from them, it is enough evidence for those who thinks.

 

[Booklover]

It is confirmed by historians that different ideas on the life and ascension of Jesus (pbuh) existed as everyone knows the first church burned many of manuscripts that they denied with the same stupid divine inspirational controversy. If there is any scripture exists from them, it is enough evidence for those who thinks.

And you consider it very intelligent to believe that a man is a prophet just because he claimed to be one! No other proof necessary!

Vickie

 

[Jayda]

Now, that is a reason to exclude it from the Bible. In fact any of the book existing in the living bible could ever confirm rather than assume the original writer. 3rd party narration are visible NT and OT books very well. None of the books are undersigned by the writer except Luke and Luke wrote it for theophelus (who lived 100-200 AD) and he was not an eye witness for any event in the life of Jesus (pbuh).

Proving the Spiritual inspiration in any book is impossible. Because it a Christian concept, not truth. If it is true, it won’t help all the sects to lead the Christianity into different directions. You Catholics believe, Holy spirit is with you. Ellen g . White of SDA claims she too had it. If we go to Pentecost, they too have it and it heals many sick.

Allegation of copying is long answered. Jesus (pbuh) was not copying from the writings of Moses (pbuh). they both had seperate revelations from God. Jesus (pbuh) preached the same message of one God that Moses (pbuh) preached. Does it mean Jesus (pbuh) was copying Moses (pbuh)? I don’t think so. If I say a truth that some one already said, doesn’t mean I am copying. Message of One God is a truth. It was preached since Adam (pbuh) till Mohamed (pbuh).

It is confirmed by historians that different ideas on the life and ascension of Jesus (pbuh) existed as everyone knows the first church burned many of manuscripts that they denied with the same stupid divine inspirational controversy. If there is any scripture exists from them, it is enough evidence for those who thinks.

hola Khalfan,

there is no need to insult… lets not say things like ‘stupid’ or imply that not accepting your position is the same as not thinking…

so if you will allow me to say some things… i think you might be confused about some issues and perhaps i can help… for example: ‘theophilus’ is not a person… it is a title meaning ‘friend of God’ and it was used as a salutation by St. Luke to the readership more generally and to the believers of his day (to whom he was writing directly) more specifically.

St. Luke was was a disciple of Paul and lived in the first Christian community founded by the disciples, in his opening he explains that he decided to write down the recent oral tradition from the disciples and apostles.

determining spiritual inspiration is not impossible, but it is exclusive. the apostles taught that no scripture was brought by man, instead men spoke as if carried along by the spirit. they also taught that the apostles have the power to determine spiritual inspiration… this is why the Church has the exclusive responsibility to determine inspiration.

also i did not say mohammed plaguerized just scripture… if he were really a prophet i could understand why he said some of the same things prior prophets said… but i provided examples of him plaguerizing mani, arab paganism, heretical christianity and gnosticism. no prophet of God has ever done such a thing, and nobody (certainly not ‘long ago’) has provided a reasonable answer for my examples of mohamed plaguerizing against these foreign religions.

i hope that helps

gracias
que Dios te bendiga

 

[jimmy85]

Hundreds of eye witneses of Jesus and sucesors of the aposotles of Jesus died martyrs becasue of the faith they had.

They died claiming that Jesus was God and they would have been released from death only if they abandon that believes, however they died martyrs becuase they truly believed what they were claiming.

 

[french]

Khalfan - i just got done doing a little independent investigation on khadija, mohammads first wife.

one interesting thing to note, is that khadija was in a religion that was a break off of Catholicism. it was popular in pagan arabia, and here’s some things they believed.

• Jesus was not God, but merely a prophet.
• Jesus was not the son of God
• They thought that Catholics worshipped te Blessed Mother, which is prolly why the quran is in grave error when it says Trinity is Father, son, and Mary.
• they believed that the kabaa in mecca was built by adam, then the flood destroyed it, and Abraham built it.

i do not remember the name of the sect, but it was a sect from syria, and it started with an a.

muslims say that khadija was a hanif… which she was. she was a monotheist. but she was also in this sect.

and it’s interesting to note that almost all that the quran says on Christianity agrees with what this sect believed. that Jesus was not God, that He was only a prophet, etc.

one of the objections that i have to islam, is how mohammad thought that he was above the quran law. for example, he was able to have 11 or 12 wives, whereas the quran says 4 maximum. might i ask what gave him the special privaliges to go above that? this is prolly one of the biggest problems Christians have with islam. and not a single Prophet of the Bible was able to do that.

peole are to live by example of the Prophet. and if the Prophet says “ohh, you can have only 4 wives” yet he has 11 or 12… do you honestly think that they are a prophet? it is heretical for anyone to think that someone who does that is a prohpet!

another problem i have with islam is the issue of abrogation.

God is perfect. God does not need to change His mind. so why does “allah” change his mind so many times in the quran? pray towards Jerusalem. OoH! wAiT! now pray towards mecca! do not ever fight during ramadan! OoH! wAiT! now you can! no compulsion in religion! OoH! wAiT! if they accept a religion other then islam, it will not be accepted in the hereafter!

abrogation, in my opinion, is just a really heretical belief, and one that should not be accepted. how do we know that “allah” hasn’t changed his mind about mohammad being the seal of prophets! or everyone having a jinn!

you see… God does not change His mind. and if He did, how would He be perfect?

you see, these are my problems with islam. and this is why i am positive that islam is nto a true religion of God.

also, some of the erros mohammad made with quran… there are a few dozen!
thequran.com/Errors.aspx?t=2

 

[Verisimilitude]

…however they died martyrs becuase they truly believed what they were claiming.

Which makes understanding today’s Mohammedan martyrs important.

 

[jimmy85]

Which makes understanding today’s Mohammedan martyrs important.

mm I think you must consider the way in whcih the first christians martyrs died , that was giving their lifes without fighting for it, Imitating Jesus.

 

[Verisimilitude]

mm I think you must consider the way in whcih the first christians martyrs died , that was giving their lifes without fighting for it, Imitating Jesus.

I proably over think the contrasts between the faiths. It’s like a bad movie come true, though everyone is afraid to make such a movie for real. It is hard not to conclude that Islam is by design in some supernatural way, though I have also concluded the designer was not God.

For years I was convinced there must be some valid connection or authority that Muhammad was a prophet of God after Jesus…but there is nothing to support that view.

They say “God speaks in mysterious ways”, and after the dispersion of people I assumed the Holy Spirit influenced many/all cultures to basic morallity and law, which would account for some similarity in many cultures religious beliefs to include the Orient and the West.

For monotheists, God specifically chose the Jews from Abraham…all the way to “salvation is from the Jews” so the world could hear God with One voice.

I thought it possible if not likely God would continue to influence us with inspired individuals in all generations, all over the world certainly before but possibly after Jesus. To be valid to me, it had to meet certain Catholic requirements. From St Jerome to JP II there have been valid inspiration, but ther have been many that do not deserve validation. Luther’s motives were different than Muhammad or Joseph Smith, but from each sprung a following.

The differences are significant. Lutherans are like a stubborn brother, Smith is the crazy uncle, and Muhammad is a un-related neighbor.

If I may borrow a pun: size matters. One point 2+ Billion is a lot of people, so that ideal which Muhammads martyrs are dying for is shared by a significant % of that population demographic.

Few will deny Muhammedans have many calls to physically “fight in the casue of allah” in their holy book. Dominance is mandated and expected. Violence is justified.

It’s not fear mongering. It should not be ignored.

 

[exoflare]

And you consider it very intelligent to believe that a man is a prophet just because he claimed to be one! No other proof necessary!

Vickie

That just about sums it up right there.

 

[Khalfan]

And you consider it very intelligent to believe that a man is a prophet just because he claimed to be one! No other proof necessary!

Vickie

He did exactly that what a prophet was supposed to do.
He did exactly that what a messenger was supposed to do.

We don’t need magic tricks from him to believe in him. Just a logical reasoning will do. We get that reasonings in Quran more than enough.