Parallellism between Mani and Muhammad

[Verisimilitude]

You accept?!! Have you forgot all those conditions you asked to authorise Quran and Hadees?

No, I did not forget. I accept John the Apostle was the witness whose testimony is in the Gospel that bears his name.

Complex development? What is that?

Meaning only his testimony was organized into a readable format that makes sense to the reader. John was likely not as educated as those who came to believe in the Good News that followed John, and became his helpers. Unlike the Quran which was organized without regard to anything meaningful, excpet the length of the chapter once it reached it’s final form. Let’s not be too naive.

If it is written by John, why would he write ‘according to John’?

I can accept John narrated, much like Mohammad did. Others likely penned the words to the format we know today, much like the Qur’an was done.

And the words of that ‘unclear’ man entered in book of John and you believe it is ‘Gospels according to John’?

Yes. It is not the man, as much as the message.

Believe me, you are the first christian who told me, there is a third party interference in Gospels of John.

I call myself Catholic, not Christian. If you discredit John becasue of that, you discredit the Quran.

A claim of an ‘unclear man’ (it is not one man since it says ‘we know’) is enough to believe in it. Fantastic logic.

True, it is the group of John’s followers. The copiest’s name is not relavant. Do you know every person who copied a verse that is in the Quran?

Jesus (pbuh) had no authority on what he did. He said,

“I can of mine own self do nothing…”. –John 5:30

He has direct Authority from God. Read this, and this.

Another problem is, you don’t know the one who reported these events was a disciple or not. You don’t know the one who reported these events was spiritually inspired or not.

But we do know, that is why the Gospels bear the name of the actual witnesses.

Jesus (pbuh) isn’t God. He spoke the words of God.

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak”. –John 12:49

“…My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me”. –John 7:16

“…the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me”.
–John 14:24

Then why does Isalm not listen to Him?

He was ‘taught’ what to speak.

“…then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things” -John 8:28

How he was taught is not written. It was through angel. As you know everithing is not written, coming of angels either not written or removed from the book.

It is written:

John 6:45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 14:9Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[Khalfan]

Physical appearance had nothing to do with the vision.

True. But the appearence of Jesus (pbuh) have lot of things to do. First of all, he was not supposed to come again and again to teach new lessons and to contradict his own teachigs as per his very own statement.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is the one who supposed to appear and teach the things that Jesus (pbuh) didn’t.

Acts 9:5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus,

This is very clear

The ‘thing’ in vision told Paul ‘I am Jeus’ and he believed it is while he never saw Jesus (pbuh) alive.

Would you accept the below appearance of ‘Jesuses’?

time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,181681,00.html

msnbc.msn.com/id/16840066/site/newsweek/

Would you accept ‘Jesus’ appearence story and teachigs of Ellen G. White, the adventist ideas?

Ask any non-Catholic Christians (which you may don’t agree as Christians) and all they will have appearenace story of Jesus (pbuh).

In India, there are a thousand Gods for Hidus and any of them appeares to anyone everyday.

A psycologist can explain you better, the reasons behind dreams and visions.

…But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: ‘He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)’ (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night). (Book #87, Hadith #111) Sahih Bukhari

Thanks. This Hadees is new to me. It confirms me one thing. Quran was never came from the prophet’s (pbuh) own mind. If it was, he would never become desparate. He would never try to suicide. I am glad that when you quoted something to disprove Quran, it is confirming the truth of Quran again and again rather than disproving.

I do not trust the source of the Quran which is Mohammad and the un-named spirit.

Your choice. I respect that.

Yes, they are very different. This is another topic in itself. and would take a longer answer.

True.

Continued.

 

[Khalfan]

Not from God, of God. They carry the weight of civil and religious law.

Hadeeses are reportings of the companians and wives of Prophet (pbuh). It includes civil and religious laws that prophet (pbuh) practiced. There were rules announced and practiced during the life time of companians which we call ‘Ijmaa’. In day to day issues, the scholars are allowed to do research and make Fathwas, which we call ‘Khiyaas’. At present situation many thinks themself capable for Khiyaas and give fatwaas. The testymony to accept or reject a fatwaa is, if it stay with the teachings of Quran and Sahih-Hadees. Otherwise it will be rejected. For ex., The fatwaas of Al Qaaeda to kill innocents in US and other european countries. The Shia fatwaas to legalise the short time marriages and self hurting.

I am glad you agree that the people in the WTC were innocent. Do you think the people in the Pentagon were innocent as well? The Quran qualifies the innocent as other Muslims in that context, not non-Muslims. The US does not target civilians in Iraq for killing, but the killers who hide behind the innocent.

Al Qayeda and US army doing the same thing to each other.

Under research by lunatics only. Islam accepts words from a spirit no one ever saw, but thinks 9/11- captured on film- is a conspiracy with missles and explosives set by the government.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3JmXQ-z8S4&mode=related&search

Watch from part one. Then comment.

Reason should not be suspended to make such a choice.

I will not.

They take Mohammeds word for it only. It is a completly different message. Jesus had His miracles as His witness. The Quran is not such a miracle.

Prophet mohamed (pbuh) too did many miracles.

None of the miracles of Jesus (pbuh) was from his own. Like all we Muslims believe, he did it with the help of his God which he himself said in John 5:30. You impressed on his miracles but not on what he said about its source.

Quran itself is a miracle.

It does not say. Mohammad was not chosen. Only one was born like Jesus, and that was Jesus. Islam does not listen to Jesus’ Words.

Do you listen to him? He asked to follow the commandmends. But Paul invalidated it and made his own commandmends which you follow.

 

[Verisimilitude]

True. But the appearence of Jesus (pbuh) have lot of things to do. First of all, he was not supposed to come again and again to teach new lessons and to contradict his own teachigs as per his very own statement.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is the one who supposed to appear and teach the things that Jesus (pbuh) didn’t.

That is true, but keep in mind when and who Christ was talking to. He was telling this to the Apostles. Paul was not yet counted among them as Paul was persecuting the Apostels and memebrs of The Way. The Holy Spirit did come to the Apostles at Pentecost; Paul was still not among them.

The ‘thing’ in vision told Paul ‘I am Jeus’ and he believed it is while he never saw Jesus (pbuh) alive.

Don’t you think the Apostles would be wary of Paul, who until that time was arresting, beating, and sometimes killing (tacitly) memebers of the early Church? I doubt it was Paul’s description of Jesus, but His words to Paul that convinced Peter, James, and the others that his experience was valid.

Paul was called by God for a specific reason. It was his character, steadfastness, and singularity of mind when upholding his personal conviction. The vision of Christ was not a Second Coming, and it would appear Pauls instruction did not come from the vision, but from the other Apostles. He knew the story of Christ- which is why, as a Jew, he persecuted them, but did not believe it until that vision.

Would you accept the below appearance of ‘Jesuses’?

time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,181681,00.html

msnbc.msn.com/id/16840066/site/newsweek/

No.

Would you accept ‘Jesus’ appearence story and teachigs of Ellen G. White, the adventist ideas?

No.

Ask any non-Catholic Christians (which you may don’t agree as Christians) and all they will have appearenace story of Jesus (pbuh).

That is why I am Catholic. There is no ambiguity.

In India, there are a thousand Gods for Hidus and any of them appeares to anyone everyday.

Many Hindus claim such a thing. I am not convinced, and that too is another topic.

A psycologist can explain you better, the reasons behind dreams and visions.

For the average human I will agree.

Thanks. This Hadees is new to me. It confirms me one thing. Quran was never came from the prophet’s (pbuh) own mind. If it was, he would never become desparate. He would never try to suicide. I am glad that when you quoted something to disprove Quran, it is confirming the truth of Quran again and again rather than disproving.

I agree. It also proves to me that at least that first vision was not from Muhammads own mind. I have always said the spirit in the cave was real. But it does say Mohammad tried to kill himself, but was stopped. It also does not expalin the abject fear I first asked you about.

Your choice. I respect that.

It is the reason we are here.

 

[Booklover]

I

Prophet mohamed (pbuh) too did many miracles.

He did not! Why did he claim he was only a warner when asked to perform miracles? He never acknowledged any

All those so-called miracles of Muhammad were invented by his followers only after a Christian bishop brought up Jesus miracles. Some are blatant copies of his.

None of the miracles of Jesus (pbuh) was from his own. Like all we Muslims believe, he did it with the help of his God which he himself said in John 5:30. You impressed on his miracles but not on what he said about its source.

You just don’t get it, do you! Jesus also forgave sins, which only God can do.

Quran itself is a miracle.

The Quran is a complete hoax and fabrication of Muhammad’s.

Vickie

 

[jimmy85]

After reading Adversus haereses of st. Ireneaus, I think that Mohamed was a normal person to proclaim himself just a prophet and not a god or an angel like most of heretics did in those crazy times.

At the first centurys, the early church didnt restricted the biblical texts and they allowed anyone to get copyes of the letters and parts of the bible.
and then people started to interprated the bible their own way and many heresys were borned.
The same happened when gutenberg created the printer and when Luther translated the bible and it was available for anyone.

This heresys started with Valentinus, then many people followed him and everyone wanted to be the owner of his own religion, and for this reason the several gnostics religions thrived.
From Valentinus until Mani, and it all end up when catholicism became the official religion of the roman empire.

However the roman empire didnt had a lot of juridiction in Arabia so no wonder this stuffs continued over there.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Hadeeses … of companians which we call ‘Ijmaa’. In day to day issues, the scholars are allowed to do research and make Fathwas, which we call ‘Khiyaas’. At present situation many thinks themself capable for Khiyaas and give fatwaas. The testymony to accept or reject a fatwaa is, if it stay with the teachings of Quran and Sahih-Hadees. Otherwise it will be rejected. For ex., The fatwaas of Al Qaaeda to kill innocents in US and other european countries. The Shia fatwaas to legalise the short time marriages and self hurting.

Rejected by whom? Let’s save this one for another thread. I will try and think along Sunni ideology to avoid that conflict here- ok?

Al Qayeda and US army doing the same thing to each other.

We can include that into a new thread one of us will create.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3JmXQ-z8S4&mode=related&search

Watch from part one. Then comment.

I did not watch the whole 5 parts yet, just the 1st. I may at some point watch all, but I know the story and many of the charges. For the sake of this thread I will only say American politics has as many different influences as any government, Islamic or not.

I will not.

OK. I always try and be honest with myself. Some things are hard to answer, and some things may not have an answer. I understand that for both sides.

Prophet mohamed (pbuh) too did many miracles.

None of the miracles of Jesus (pbuh) was from his own. Like all we Muslims believe, he did it with the help of his God which he himself said in John 5:30. You impressed on his miracles but not on what he said about its source.

Quran itself is a miracle.

I need to run but this is well disputed.

Do you listen to him? He asked to follow the commandmends. But Paul invalidated it and made his own commandmends which you follow.

I try my very best to yes. He gave us a perfect example, and as I get older I find it easier to abide by the Wisdom of that example.

I’ll think of a new thread because there is more I’d like to discuss. I appreciate your honesty. Tomorrow I will celebrate my nations Independence Day. I will be busy, but want you to know something. No matter what I feel personally about your faith, and the danger it poses to my culture, it is the celebration of freedom tomorrow that does show a way to co-exist if the ideology allows all freedoms for all people. As an American I can live with a Muslim with no animosity and form friendships. As a Catholic on this board I will not color my faith with false pretense. The American people truly want to help others. (We will talk about the government elswhere)

God Bless

 

[Khalfan]

No, I did not forget. I accept John the Apostle was the witness whose testimony is in the Gospel that bears his name.

You don’t know who wrote the gospels. How do you know there was a ‘John’ that ever existed? You believe it just because an unknown man said about him.

Meaning only his testimony was organized into a readable format that makes sense to the reader. John was likely not as educated as those who came to believe in the Good News that followed John, and became his helpers. Unlike the Quran which was organized without regard to anything meaningful, excpet the length of the chapter once it reached it’s final form. Let’s not be too naive.

That makes sense to a Christian rather. Other gospels known as synoptic, because many things in John doesn’t match with other three gospels.

In Mark Jesus (pbuh) begs God to save him from the cross, though he submits to God’s decision. In John, we don’t find that prayer. Instead Jesus (pbuh) declares that he will not pray to be saved (12:27).

Rework on the words and sayings of Jesus, the actions of Jesus is happened very often in all four gospels and it is clearly visible.

To have people call Jesus “Lord.” For example, on the occasion when Jesus was transfigured, in Mark Peter called him “Rabbi”; in Matthew Peter called him “Lord.” (Mark 9:5 cf. Matthew 17:4)

To have Jesus refer to himself as Lord. When Jesus directed his disciples to wait and watch for his imminent return, in Mark he called himself “the master of the house”; in Matthew he called himself “your Lord”. (Mark 13:35 cf. Matthew 24:42)

To have Jesus called “the Son of God”. At a place called Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asked Peter who he thought Jesus was. In Mark Peter replied: “You are the Messiah.” But in Matthew Peter replied: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.” Matthew has added the title “the Son of the Living God.” (Mark 8:27-29 cf. Matthew 16:13-16)

To have Jesus refer to God as his Father. When Jesus’s mother and siblings came looking for him, in Mark he said: “Whoever does the will of God is my mother and brother and sister”. But in Matthew he said: “Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my mother and brother and sister.” In Mark he called God God. But in Matthew he called God his father. (Mark 3:35 cf. Matthew 12:50)

To have people pray to Jesus. While Jesus was asleep in a boat a storm rocked the boat. In Mark the disciples awoke Jesus with this mild rebuke: “Teacher, do you not care if we drown?” But in Matthew they pray to him: “Lord, save us! We are perishing.” The rebuke was changed to a prayer. (Mark 6:51-52 cf. 14:32-33)

Rework on the words of God in Quran is never happened. There are many anti islamic sites to claim differences and changes in Quran. The difference between us is, we don’t accept any changed Quran. But you accept the alteration even after knowing that it is later addition or rework.

Continued.

 

[Khalfan]

Verisimilitude:
Continued.

I can accept John narrated, much like Mohammad did. Others likely penned the words to the format we know today, much like the Qur’an was done.

Do not compare Quran with gospels. The nature of concept written itself is different. What you can compare gospels with is Non-Sahih hadeeses which we don’t know the narretors very well.

Each and every stages Quran brought into a book is documented. You can’t claim that regarding any gospel.

Yes. It is not the man, as much as the message.

That is why we say, you are programmed. If some one wrote ‘God is good’, you assume that a Christian wrote it and include in the Bible. If you don’t know where to put, you put it inside any book and say John or Mark etc. wrote it. Then you believe it is true. How many generations getting fooled!! But you don’t care.

I call myself Catholic, not Christian. If you discredit John becasue of that, you discredit the Quran.

Catholics are not Christian?!! I didn’t know that.

A third party interference in the concept of Quran is never happened.

True, it is the group of John’s followers. The copiest’s name is not relavant. Do you know every person who copied a verse that is in the Quran?

Haw many you want me to name? Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali etc. The reason itself was, many of complete Quran memorized people died in war. So that other companians who knew full and who knew few made it into a book. So that even if they die, later generation may have easy access to Quran.

He has direct Authority from God. Read this, and this.

God need athourity, to do something?!! You should learn what God is. God is the supreme power. Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t. Why don’t you see that?

But we do know, that is why the Gospels bear the name of the actual witnesses.

How can you be so sure about the witnesses unless you know the person talking about the witnesses? What if he was a lair?

Then why does Isalm not listen to Him?

Islam accepts many of his teachigs said in Bible. We accept the message of One God. And we accept what he said about himself that he is not God and that he came to Israelites only.

It is written:

John 6:45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a]

It is not written how.

Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Do you meen seeing is physical?

What does it say more than that all messengers came with the same message?

John 14:9Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

What does it prove?

 

[Khalfan]

That is true, but keep in mind when and who Christ was talking to. He was telling this to the Apostles. Paul was not yet counted among them as Paul was persecuting the Apostels and memebrs of The Way. The Holy Spirit did come to the Apostles at Pentecost; Paul was still not among them.

The Holy Spirit was supposed to come to all mankind, not only to the apostles. Holy Spirit is supposed to dwell (as per Bible) in each every human soul on earth.

Don’t you think the Apostles would be wary of Paul, who until that time was arresting, beating, and sometimes killing (tacitly) memebers of the early Church? I doubt it was Paul’s description of Jesus, but His words to Paul that convinced Peter, James, and the others that his experience was valid.

Paul was called by God for a specific reason. It was his character, steadfastness, and singularity of mind when upholding his personal conviction. The vision of Christ was not a Second Coming, and it would appear Pauls instruction did not come from the vision, but from the other Apostles. He knew the story of Christ- which is why, as a Jew, he persecuted them, but did not believe it until that vision.

It is not about What Paul saw, but what he said. His message proves (our interpretations cannot prove) the truth of his vision.

Was that specific reason, to contradict what Jesus (pbuh) taught while he was alive?

No.

No.

That is why I am Catholic. There is no ambiguity.

Many Hindus claim such a thing. I am not convinced, and that too is another topic.

You don’t know what vision is then. Visions are supernatural. It cannot either be proved or disproved. If you don’t agree with Ellen G. White, it is becasue either you are learned to do so or you don’t agree with her teachigs. Catholic church doesn’t agree with her becasue her teachings doesn’t match with catholic beliefs. So they (and you) deny her claim of vision too. The point is not that if her vision was true or not, but the message she brought. It is rejected by catholic church because it doesn’t match as i said. The same applies to Paul as well. The point is not that if his vision was true or not, but the message he got in vision. Does it match with the teachings Jesus (pbuh) preached while he was alive? Take the case of commandmends itself.

Jesus (pbuh) said to follow the commandmends. Circumsision was a commandmend. Jesus (pbuh) himself was circumsised. He never said it is not to be followed. But Paul said that, which is completely against the teaching of Jesus (pbuh) to follow the commandmends.

For the average human I will agree.

A psycologist can tell you about that too, the average and ‘Above average’ category of human mind.

I agree. It also proves to me that at least that first vision was not from Muhammads own mind. I have always said the spirit in the cave was real. But it does say Mohammad tried to kill himself, but was stopped. It also does not expalin the abject fear I first asked you about.

It wasn’t fear, but depression and confusion about what is happening to him. So that the angel use to come all the time and remind him, give him strength and support him.

…Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home.

 

[Khalfan]

He did not! Why did he claim he was only a warner when asked to perform miracles? He never acknowledged any

All those so-called miracles of Muhammad were invented by his followers only after a Christian bishop brought up Jesus miracles. Some are blatant copies of his.

Do miracles prove divinity of someone? There are many miracles reported to have done by many in OT. All they are supposed to be God if Jesus (pbuh) is God, becasue of his miracles. Are they? Were Jesus (pbuh) copying the miracles of earlier people? I don’t think so.

Try something else to prove the divinity of Jesus (pbuh).

You just don’t get it, do you! Jesus also forgave sins, which only God can do.

Matthew 9:6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

Who is God and who is man there? All those people and the writer didn’t understand the forgivness of Jesus (pbuh) as his own power. Instead, THEY PRAISED GOD, WHO GAVE SUCH AUTHORITY TO JESUS (PBUH). How could you understand it as his own power?

The Quran is a complete hoax and fabrication of Muhammad’s.

Vickie

Yaa… the only problem is, no one could prove it ever.

 

[Khalfan]

I did not watch the whole 5 parts yet, just the 1st. I may at some point watch all, but I know the story and many of the charges. For the sake of this thread I will only say American politics has as many different influences as any government, Islamic or not.

Watch all the video. You may think different.

OK. I always try and be honest with myself. Some things are hard to answer, and some things may not have an answer. I understand that for both sides.

You are right. Some times some answers are hard to accept too for certain reasons for certain people.

I need to run but this is well disputed.

Sure. It is disputed as per all anti Islamic sites. But the scintific miraclulous statemenats are not disputed for scintists.

I try my very best to yes. He gave us a perfect example, and as I get older I find it easier to abide by the Wisdom of that example.

Who? Jesus (pbuh) or Paul?

I’ll think of a new thread because there is more I’d like to discuss. I appreciate your honesty. Tomorrow I will celebrate my nations Independence Day. I will be busy, but want you to know something. No matter what I feel personally about your faith, and the danger it poses to my culture, it is the celebration of freedom tomorrow that does show a way to co-exist if the ideology allows all freedoms for all people. As an American I can live with a Muslim with no animosity and form friendships. As a Catholic on this board I will not color my faith with false pretense. The American people truly want to help others. (We will talk about the government elswhere)

God Bless

Happy independence day.

I assure you, my faith doesn’t poses danger to anyone but to the enimies of mankind. I too live with many Christians peacefully. I have many Christians and Hindu friends. In my home town in India, Muslims are majority and Hindus are bit less. Christians are very less. But we live together with love and peace. There weren’t even a single religious isseu between us for last 100 years (I can’t be sure more than that).

I appreciate your spirit. And I would like remind you, it is not only Americans that want to help others. You may help, but know what you are doing. Otherwise, people may misunderstand it.

 

[murtad]

The question is not what they claimed and what they died for. Many Muslims got killed in crusades. Many Jews killed by Hitler. Many British got killed in freedom fight in India. We can find martyrs in every religion, even atheists. That doesn’t prove true or false but the courage and honesty they had in the concept they believed.

You say many Muslims got killed in the [medieval] crusades. Yes, no doubt as they were Islamic terrorists who invaded the Christian Byzantine Empire and illegally occupied Christian land.

We always hear of Christian colonism and imperialism being spoken of by European leftists but we never hear these hypocrites speak of Islamic colonism and imperialism, in particular Arab and Turkish colonism.

Islamic armies without provocation invaded Christian Egypt and Christian Syria for the sole purpose of trying to colonise it and subjugate its people. This colonism is called Arabisation which is the basis of Islam and we all know Egyptians are not Arabs at all but Arabised Copts!

Now, what Adolf Hitler did to the Jews was WRONG but what the medieval Christian Crusaders did to the Muslims was just war since you, Muslims occupied Christian lands illegally. The Catholic armies have the right to liberate those lands.

 

[murtad]

As per the prophecy, the spirit was supposed to come only after Jesus (pbuh) go. The Holy Spirit was here long before and even at the time Jesus (pbuh).

Yes, the Holy Spirit being the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity had existed long before the Son of God became flesh. Perhaps, you cannot comprehend Trinity? There are 3 persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) who are eternal and not created.

I prove the truth of Islam from the scripture you believe.

How do you know that you are interpreting Scripture we believe correctly? The Church has always taught that translations contain errors and I see you rely a lot on Protestant translations like the RSV and the NIV, which most of us here will call mis-translations. Also, Bible like Quran can be interpreted only one way. I am sure you being a Sunni Muslim reject Quraniyyah (ie Muslims who reject Sunnah Hadith), so I find it amazing you use material from Christians who reject Holy Tradition (ie Protestants). Do you know that such behaviour is hypocrisy?

No. That a lie.

Its not a lie. I am a former Muslim, an apostate from Islam, who Pakistanis refer as “murtad”. I left Islam because I realised its a religion of falsehood and lies. Under Pakistan law, the punishment for leaving Islam (ie murtad) is death by hanging. This punishment is found in Islam’s second holiest book, Hadith containing sayings of that terrorist Muhammad who said “If anyone leaves his religion, kill him”. So, Muslims are hunting me down and Pakistan police are tracking me. I have moved to India, which is a non Muslim country for protection!

Unless the opponent wish for fair dialogue, don’r expect us to be fair.

You, Khalfan don’t like fair dialogue and that’s why you are dishonest about Islam. Do you have proof Quran is from God? I am a murtad - an apostate from Islam - who embraced Christianity. The reason I left Islam is I discovered Quran is inspiried by an immoral man, Muhammad who lied that God dictated Quran to him, when he himself wrote it. And eventhough Sunni Islam claims Muhammad was an illiterate, this claim is bogus as there is a lot of evidence Muhammad was literate as he was an ordained Jewish Rabbi. That’s why those textual critics who analyze the Quran conclude that it is plagarised from the Babylonian Talmud.

By the way, God said,

‘There is no cumpulsion in religion.’

And I think God has the right to say what he like. If it is Islam, I can’t disagree that.

Yes, that is a Makkan Sura, which was revealed before Muhammad’s imperialist missions. Once he became ruler of Medina, he then invaded Makkah and subjugated its residents. From then onwards, Islam has always been an imperialistic and colonist faith that force converted Christians to Islam, via Jizyah and Kharaj. Its a convert (to Islam), pay protection money (Jizyah/Kharaj) or die by the sword.

That’s why vast majority of the Middle Eastern and North African Christians, in particular, Maronites, Assyrians, Chaldeans and Copts hate Islam and call it a racist and apartheid ideology.

Khalfan, I am a Pakistani (ie Indian Muslim) and Pakistan unlike India does not provide freedom of religion and has compulsion. India is free because it is a KAFIR COUNTRY which is predominantly Hindus. Muslims when they are majority never have shown toleration and force people to enter Islam.

You know why Hindus hate Muslims more than British? That’s because Muslims are oppressors of Indians under the Mughal Sultanate while British saved India like they save Iraq from Saddam Hussein.

Remember, of the Hindu slaughters by Muslims? That’s why Pakistanis (Indian Muslims) and Indians hate one another so much. Look in Kashmir and you can see how Muslims show their true violent nature! Muslims hate equality with non Muslims, in particular Hindus or other non Muslims, even Catholics.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quite nice not having Khal visible any longer.

(( click the name / click “Add XGuy to your ignore list” / click “save list” ))

As with anyone else, if I notice that quotes by them are more “informative” I’ll reconsider de-ignoring them.

Other than that,… since I get nothing but irrelevant nonsense from Khal, I’d rather not see him.

Have fun, y’all…!

 

[Khalfan]

You say many Muslims got killed in the [medieval] crusades. Yes, no doubt as they were Islamic terrorists who invaded the Christian Byzantine Empire and illegally occupied Christian land.

We always hear of Christian colonism and imperialism being spoken of by European leftists but we never hear these hypocrites speak of Islamic colonism and imperialism, in particular Arab and Turkish colonism.

Islamic armies without provocation invaded Christian Egypt and Christian Syria for the sole purpose of trying to colonise it and subjugate its people. This colonism is called Arabisation which is the basis of Islam and we all know Egyptians are not Arabs at all but Arabised Copts!

Now, what Adolf Hitler did to the Jews was WRONG but what the medieval Christian Crusaders did to the Muslims was just war since you, Muslims occupied Christian lands illegally. The Catholic armies have the right to liberate those lands.

Wow… so you do that today with Bush in iraq and Afghan.

Read your own Bible my dear. It will tell you enough stories of invades only because of faith. Enough blood shed because they were worshipping idols. You can see, God giving permission to invade, kill, rob and slavery. Ex. Numbers 31.

Now read something very strange in that chapter.

Numbers 31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of woman that had not known man by lying with him.

Numbers 31:40: And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD’s tribute was thirty and two persons.

I can imagine what the warriors were doing with those virgin girls. But I don’t understand what God was doing with that 32 virgin girls?

Wait, he only said to kill all woman and boys and to keep only the virgin girls. So I think I know what he was interested in.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Read your own Bible my dear. It will tell you enough stories of invades only because of faith. Enough blood shed because they were worshipping idols. You can see, God giving permission to invade, kill, rob and slavery. Ex. Numbers 31.

Now read something very strange in that chapter.

Numbers 31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of woman that had not known man by lying with him.

Numbers 31:40: And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD’s tribute was thirty and two persons.

I can imagine what the warriors were doing with those virgin girls. But I don’t understand what God was doing with that 32 virgin girls?

Wait, he only said to kill all woman and boys and to keep only the virgin girls. So I think I know what he was interested in.

The tribes who were attacked under these commands were worshipers of Baal. They sacrificed humans. The favorite sacrifices were young boys and virgin girls. They also practiced ritualistic sex and rapes in their worship. I have no problem with executing those how sacrifices and rape children as part of their religion. There were no innocent adults in this society as they were all worshipers of Baal. The young boys were probably killed so that they could not seek revenge later as was the norm at that time. Actually at the time, killing every living thing was not usual in warfare.

You have a filthy mind. But I can understand why since Muhammad allowed his men to rape war captives and even raped some himself.

But this is not what the Bible was talking about. The girls were brought into the homes of Jewish families and raised as Jewish girls. Basically they were adopted. When they came of age they were married and lived normal lives.

So get you mind out of the filthy gutter.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Wow… so you do that today with Bush in iraq and Afghan.

Not so. We went into Iraq and Afghanistan to remove governments that were our enemies. We have no interest in colonizing those countries. We offered to leave both countries a few years ago. Their governments went to the UN and negotiated treaties to keep us there to help them fight of terrorists and insurgents who want to put in Taliban-like regimes.

If Saddam had not broken the ceasefire treaty we would not have gone into Iraq. Remember that the Qur’an states clearly that if someone breaks a treaty, attacking them is a valid option. This option holds true for Muslims as well as non-Muslims right? Saddam was attacking forces… we have a right to fight those who attack us right? Or do only Muslims have the right to defend themselves?

In Afghanistan we asked them to turn over bin Laden and his people since they attacked us on 9/11. Actually Bin Laden declared war on the USA in about 1995 and attacked us many times killing thousand of Americans over the years. We ask the Afghani government to turn over bin Laden; they refused and gave him support. Hence they were also our enemy.

You’re just angry that infidels are standing up for ourselves. Tell me how much you cared about the people in Afghanistan and Iraq when they were being slaughtered by the thousands by their own leaders? Not one whit I’ll bet. Why didn’t the other Middle Eastern countries take care Saddam and the Taliban? Because no one cared.

Did you know that the USA offered to not attack Iraq if Saddam found asylum elsewhere? And all his loving Muslim brothers turned him down. They did not want to prevent an attack on Iraq… I wonder why???

 

[BelFarfalla]

"murtad:
You say many Muslims got killed in the [medieval] crusades. Yes, no doubt as they were Islamic terrorists who invaded the Christian Byzantine Empire and illegally occupied Christian land.

We always hear of Christian colonism and imperialism being spoken of by European leftists but we never hear these hypocrites speak of Islamic colonism and imperialism, in particular Arab and Turkish colonism.

Islamic armies without provocation invaded Christian Egypt and Christian Syria for the sole purpose of trying to colonise it and subjugate its people. This colonism is called Arabisation which is the basis of Islam and we all know Egyptians are not Arabs at all but Arabised Copts!

Now, what Adolf Hitler did to the Jews was WRONG but what the medieval Christian Crusaders did to the Muslims was just war since you, Muslims occupied Christian lands illegally. The Catholic armies have the right to liberate those lands.

Wow… so you do that today with Bush in iraq and Afghan.

So now you trying to justify atrocities and invasions by Muslims by something that is happening today? Why don’t you just be honest and admit that you ancestors were brutal, invaded a good part of the world killing and enslaves hundreds of millions of innocent people? Christians have admitted the terrible things our ancestors did. Why don’t you just admit those that your ancestors did? Honesty is a very good thing.

 

[Khalfan]

Yes, the Holy Spirit being the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity had existed long before the Son of God became flesh. Perhaps, you cannot comprehend Trinity? There are 3 persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) who are eternal and not created.

Then that is contradicting the prophecy of Jesus (pbuh). He said it won’t come until he go.

Jesus (pbuh) never said God is a trinity. Infact 1 John 5:7 thrown out of Bible as fabrication.

How do you know that you are interpreting Scripture we believe correctly? The Church has always taught that translations contain errors and I see you rely a lot on Protestant translations like the RSV and the NIV, which most of us here will call mis-translations. Also, Bible like Quran can be interpreted only one way. I am sure you being a Sunni Muslim reject Quraniyyah (ie Muslims who reject Sunnah Hadith), so I find it amazing you use material from Christians who reject Holy Tradition (ie Protestants). Do you know that such behaviour is hypocrisy?

Is there any correct translated version of Bible ever made? KJV itself revised 5 times. RSV and NIV were not made by any school children. Read the commentory page it will tell you, how many scholars have worked for it.

Quran is available in the same language it revealed. We don’t have to rely on translations. Translations are just a support. Translations are not at all considered as Quran. No translators have ever claimed the accuracy. We all learn Arabic to understand Quran. But the Bible translations always do that and when any mistake is pointed, you say it is a translation mistake. That is what I call hypocrisy. Unfortunatly, most of you doesn’t have the access to the ‘original’ Bible.

Its not a lie. I am a former Muslim, an apostate from Islam, who Pakistanis refer as “murtad”. I left Islam because I realised its a religion of falsehood and lies. Under Pakistan law, the punishment for leaving Islam (ie murtad) is death by hanging. This punishment is found in Islam’s second holiest book, Hadith containing sayings of that terrorist Muhammad who said “If anyone leaves his religion, kill him”. So, Muslims are hunting me down and Pakistan police are tracking me. I have moved to India, which is a non Muslim country for protection!

I don’t know what Pakistan court practices. Can you quote the Hadees and its context?

You, Khalfan don’t like fair dialogue and that’s why you are dishonest about Islam. Do you have proof Quran is from God? I am a murtad - an apostate from Islam - who embraced Christianity. The reason I left Islam is I discovered Quran is inspiried by an immoral man, Muhammad who lied that God dictated Quran to him, when he himself wrote it. And eventhough Sunni Islam claims Muhammad was an illiterate, this claim is bogus as there is a lot of evidence Muhammad was literate as he was an ordained Jewish Rabbi. That’s why those textual critics who analyze the Quran conclude that it is plagarised from the Babylonian Talmud.

I think you read so much of anti Islamic sites. Now, read some Islamic sites as well.

Yes, that is a Makkan Sura, which was revealed before Muhammad’s imperialist missions. Once he became ruler of Medina, he then invaded Makkah and subjugated its residents. From then onwards, Islam has always been an imperialistic and colonist faith that force converted Christians to Islam, via Jizyah and Kharaj. Its a convert (to Islam), pay protection money (Jizyah/Kharaj) or die by the sword.

Hold on, did you say ‘revealed’? Do you believe any sura was revealed to Prophet (pbuh)?

But he was supposed to kill them all, because they were unbelievers, right?

Continued.