Parents role in a situation

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Whether people decide to have sex days before their wedding or not is up to them.

The parents are Catholic. It is reasonable to believe that they accept the premise that the Catholic faith is true.

CCC 2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

It is reasonable for a Catholic couple to decide they’re not going to be silent and tolerant when a member of their own household is indulging in behaviors gravely contrary to her dignity and the dignity of her boyfriend. They’re not going to correct her in the same way as if she were still a child, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to tolerate whatever she does provided she doesn’t actually do it in their house while they are present.

I know what the church teaches. And if one is a Catholic then one should obey the church. And I totally agree that you might well be concerned for the spiritual well being of others if you think they are sinning. But you cannot impose what the church teaches on others. Especially on an adult who one would assume is mature and intelligent enough to make their own decisions. So you are certainly within your rights, perhaps even obliged to voice your concerens. But to send them from the family home?

One would have to question what other sins would be applicable for such a drastic action?

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

" He told them another parable: ‘The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.’" - Matthew 13:33
~
The parents have Biblical loving kindness assertive compassion concerns for their daughter, this is true, no doubt about it. However, when any of us gives into ‘doubt,’
‘worry,’ and/or 'fear we can send bad leaven, even with just concern.
~
So, of course, assertive proper respect within the household from the daughter.
Ask her to go to Church, but don’t berate her, would seem appropriate. Find some
friends closer to her age to invite over, and let her know. Invite the boyfriend, too.
Set anger rules and boundaries. But take it day by day, with love and concern.
~
“Train up a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not depart from it.” - Proverbs 22:6 English vernacular, understood.
“Parents, do not treat your children in such a way as to make them [discouraged]. Instead, raise them with Christian discipline and instruction.” - Ephesians 6:4
~
Honestly, I’ve failed in these things. We each of God’s Good Will wish to help one
another. Jesus The Only Divine Anointed One, said we are each taught by God.
But none of us is an ‘island.’ The Universal Church of Jesus Christ is a family.
And the world of nations, kindred(s), and languages has always needed The Church of The Living God.
~
A heartfelt, Justice and Peace Embracing springing forth as Living Water to Eternal Life, with The Joy of The Lord as each of our Strengths. With all thanksgiving to JESUS.
Good night.

 

[vz71]

Yeah. Mine. I see no problem. Are you suggesting you can see into mine and tell me that there is?

I have suggested nothing.
God is our judge.

 

[vz71]

So you have to tell me what harm is being caused.

I did. “The scar is an overall deafening of that which tells us wrong from right.”

 

[PetraG]

I know what the church teaches. And if one is a Catholic then one should obey the church. And I totally agree that you might well be concerned for the spiritual well being of others if you think they are sinning. But you cannot impose what the church teaches on others. Especially on an adult who one would assume is mature and intelligent enough to make their own decisions. So you are certainly within your rights, perhaps even obliged to voice your concerens. But to send them from the family home?

One would have to question what other sins would be applicable for such a drastic action?

I’m really having a hard time figuring out why this is considered such a “drastic action.” Have you really never had friend or a relative that you wouldn’t want as a roommate? Can you really not envision having a moral life that would lead one of your children to hesitate having you as a member of their household, even though they would be willing to celebrate holidays with you? I don’t see why this is so hard. Maybe that is why my extended family still gets along when so many others aren’t on speaking terms?

I think is it is in your premise that people have no standing to want roommates who share their values. I really don’t get that, unless the reason is because the daughter in this case isn’t doing anything that happens to violate your values. If you were living in a country where dogfighting was legal or trafficking in women was legal and your son or daughter was into that, you really wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as it wasn’t literally on your property and everyone doing it said they were OK with it? Maybe that is true, but I find that very hard to believe and I find that expectation of “tolerance” between members of the same household to be unrealistic.

On the other hand, I’m suggesting that the daughter go find someone who is fine with it, so I guess I’m suggesting that it is out there. If I were her mother and didn’t think that there were decent people who believed this kind of thing, I certainly wouldn’t suggest she go live with them.

 

[vz71]

This is a fallacy of composition. Someone drowned at the beach therefore swimming at the beach is wrong.

No, it is no fallacy. It is a statement of fact.
Your example is in error as it does not relate to what was said.

 

[Thorolfr]

Norseman82:

Thorolfr:

Hopefully, one of their priorities is to help their child get an education so that they can succeed in life.

Their first priority is to help them get to heaven. Everything else needs to be seen through that lens.

And how does telling a child that they can no longer treat your house as a home acheive that?

I was wondering the same thing. If the parents act in too heavy handed a manner and cause the child to move out, the child will then continue to do what they were doing before but with the parents no longer having any influence over their child at all. In all likelihood, this kind of action will just drive the child further away from the faith tradition in which they were raised.

 

[JimG]

Parents should not be enablers of their children’s bad behavior, or of anyone else’s bad behavior.

 

[Wozza]

Parents should not be enablers of their children’s bad behavior, or of anyone else’s bad behavior.

I agree. Please explain how not sending a child from the family home is enabling what you consider to be bad behaviour.

 

[JimG]

Sometimes a child is enabled to persist in bad behavior precisely because of the support of his parents. If that is the case, the parents become enablers, and the best way they can help the person is to do no more enabling.

 

[PetraG]

I was wondering the same thing. If the parents act in too heavy handed a manner and cause the child to move out, the child will then continue to do what they were doing before but with the parents no longer having any influence over their child at all. In all likelihood, this kind of action will just drive the child further away from the faith tradition in which they were raised.

I think maybe we’re talking about a family in which the parents haven’t established the idea that there are people out there whom they respect that they wouldn’t live with or that deciding on doing things your own way involves giving other people the room to not like it. If your children have the “there are bad people and there are good people” ethos, then of course they’re going to feel rejected if their parents don’t treat their moral choices as a private matter that everyone else who loves them is supposed to “support unconditionally.” No. I don’t hold to that. I don’t think that is what it means to have a tolerant society or a supportive family. (Although it is better form to avoid ever saying “I told you so” if they have a change of opinion in your direction…)

Again, I think all-or-nothing expectations like this are why we have such a divided society. Everyone who isn’t 100% all in for us and all of our decisions is deemed to be against us, is deemed to be toxic, and is relegated to social shunning. That’s not what tolerance means. No, having tolerance and treating other people as adults who make their own decisions also means letting them be free to let us figure out how to manage to make our own decisions work without expecting their help on decisions they think are morally wrong-headed. People have to also be free to stand back and say, “You’re free to do what you want, but I’m having nothing to do with it, friend. I have to walk my road and follow my conscience, too.”

 

[Wozza]

On the other hand, I’m suggesting that the daughter go find someone who is fine with it, so I guess I’m suggesting that it is out there.

You would be, as you have explained a few times now, effectively telling your daughter that she is not the type of person with whom you would want to share a home. That you don’t want to live with her. Whatever she has done, that is drastic behaviour. Whether it warrants such drastic behaviour is the question at hand.

We know what the church teaches. A further question is whether you have the right to impose everything that the church teaches onto others.

The first question depends on whether harm will come from it. Not whether it can be shown that harm has come from it on occasions. But in this specific case. Just like it’s wrong to swim at the beach IF the surf is rough, there are dangerous currents and you are alone.

And I can answer the second question. It’s no. You are fully within your rights to personally uphold the teachings of your church. But you cannot expect, and you definitely cannot demand that others must.

Telling a child that they are no longer welcome to live in the family home is undoubtedly a drastic action to take. If you feel the situation warrants it, then that would obviously be your call.

 

[Wozza]

Sometimes a child is enabled to persist in bad behavior precisely because of the support of his parents. If that is the case, the parents become enablers, and the best way they can help the person is to do no more enabling.

I’m not asking for what might be the case sometimes. It is obvious enough that if your daughter has a heroin problem and you keep giving her money which you know she will spend on drugs then you are complicit in her problem. How about you explain how one is enabling a daughter to occasionally sleep with her boyfriend by not throwing her out of the home.

 

[PetraG]

You would be, as you have explained a few times now, effectively telling your daughter that she is not the type of person with whom you would want to share a home. That you don’t want to live with her. Whatever she has done, that is drastic behaviour. Whether it warrants such drastic behaviour is the question at hand.

See, there you go with the “there are good people and there are bad people” ethos. That is not what tolerance means. I also was very clear that I didn’t say that a family member who didn’t have the values of our family wouldn’t be welcome in the house. I said that they would need to make their own household, because they wanted a household with different values than ours. Adults have different values like that, some times. If people are tolerant, that is not a deal-breaker. I guess this is why my family can have Republicans and Democrats around the same dinner table without any strife about it.

Yes, if you have taught your children that there are “good people” and “bad people,” then of course as soon as they do things that finally do go over whatever moral line you do have, they will take that as your judgment that they are “bad people.” People with the “wrong politics” or the “wrong morals” won’t be welcome under your roof. Yeah, teach them that, and they will cut you off if you ever dare to tell them that they are making a grave mistake when they depart from the teachings of the Church. Of course they will. It is logically coherent that they would.

 

[JimG]

That’s for the parent to decide. If the daughter is using the parents’ home as a base from which to set out on occasional fornication sleepovers, or if she’s using the home as a base from which to set out on occasional shoplifting sprees, the parent has to decide whether or not they wish to be partially culpable by enabler her with a home base. It’s the parent’s decision.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

You would be, as you have explained a few times now, effectively telling your daughter that she is not the type of person with whom you would want to share a home. That you don’t want to live with her. Whatever she has done, that is drastic behaviour. Whether it warrants such drastic behaviour is the question at hand.

I also was very clear that I didn’t say that a family member who didn’t have the values of our family wouldn’t be welcome in the house. I said that they would need to make their own household, because they wanted a household with different values than ours.

Nobody said that you would ban them from coming to the house. But you are specifically saying that they are no longer welcome to live there. That she is not the type of person that you want to live with. How anyone could say that that is not a drastic action to take is beyond me.

 

[Annie]

And you protect your daughter by sending her out of the home? Doesn’t seem like a great idea to me.

No, I say that if she is old enough to decide to choose for herself things she has been taught are wrong, then she is old enough not to be supported by her parents.

Look, there are people who have children who are drug addicts. These parents are told not to enable their children by supporting them, which allows the children to continue to use drugs.

If an 18-year-old is old enough to be treated as an adult and make her own decisions, then she is old enough to support herself.

Adult children who make certain decisions are saying they no longer need the protection of their parents. The parents are simply seeing that the adult children no longer need their protection and letting them be independent.

It doesn’t have to mean a huge rift or anything.

 

[Wozza]

If an 18-year-old is old enough to be treated as an adult and make her own decisions, then she is old enough to support herself.

Adult children who make certain decisions are saying they no longer need the protection of their parents. The parents are simply seeing that the adult children no longer need their protection and letting them be independent.

It doesn’t have to mean a huge rift or anything.

It generally isn’t. But there is something of a difference in ‘letting them be independent’ and telling them that they have to leave the family home. And telling them that they are not the type of person you want to live with. Which is exactly the scenario being presented.

 

[Wozza]

That’s for the parent to decide.

No, it’s for you to explain. You made the claim that not throwing her out enables her to have sex with her boyfriend. You need to explain how that works.

 

[PetraG]

Nobody said that you would ban them from coming to the house. But you are specifically saying that they are no longer welcome to live there. That she is not the type of person that you want to live with. How anyone could say that that is not a drastic action to take is beyond me.

Again: I say “this is how we live here” and you interpret that as “this is the type of people we are.”
No, it is “if you want to live like this, live here, but if you want to live a different way, go ahead and set up your own household and live the way you choose.” You’re saying that “you are welcome” means “you are welcome even if you don’t think the house rules apply to you.”

The idea that only what takes place literally on the premises is of any account is an artificial boundary. That’s fine, if that’s what members of the household decide. It is arbitrary, though…and again: I really don’t believe that people believe that. If their roommate was fighting dogs or had some other “adult decision” that the other roommates found repugnant, it would matter.