Paris Massacre highlights the failure of Muslim integration in Europe [AN]

[Catholic_Press]

The attack in the heart of France highlights the crisis of Europe’s model of coexistence. Social unrest, poverty and marginalisation feed youth extremism and radicalisation. An Irish journalist, expert on expertise in religion and interfaith dialogue, talks about it after undertaking a journey through the French Muslim world.

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[pnewton]

Perhaps this attack highlights dangers of immigration, and challenges faced, but it does not mean such integration is doomed to fail, anymore that the David Koresh and Jim Jones highlight the failure of Christianity in America. The only real issue I see is the danger of* excessive *accommodation for religious disciplines where the safety and security of society as a whole are at stake.

 

[fhansen]

The massacre highlights the evil of human self-righteousness or pride: fanatical self-exaltation of the worst kind because it masquerades as service to God’s will, while turning men into poison. In the name of God, they’re actually in direct opposition to Him.

 

[Padres1969]

Perhaps this attack highlights dangers of immigration, and challenges faced, but it does not mean such integration is doomed to fail, anymore that the David Koresh and Jim Jones highlight the failure of Christianity in America. The only real issue I see is the danger of* excessive *accommodation for religious disciplines where the safety and security of society as a whole are at stake.

I think the point is that it might highlight the failure of French style integration. I have a friend from Ivory Coast who spent time as an immigrant in France (and who still has some family and Ivorian friends there). She has lived in the US for many years now as well so she’s familiar with both countries. Her biggest gripe with Fance is that immigrants are not integrated into the mainline French culture at all. They are kept almost completely apart as a second lower class of citizen and as a result they retain their identity as “non French”. Her feeling on the US is that even with our troubles and guys who think like Trump, that we are far better at integrating immigrants into our country and our culture to a point where immigrants start to feel “American”. That’s not to say they lose their cultural identity entirely, but that they integrate it into their Americanism.

Her basic premise is that if the French would stop clinging to the historic notion of what makes one “French” culturally that they might actually start integrating immigrants, not just Muslim ones mind you, into their nation rather than leaving them as outsiders in their own country far more susceptible to feelings of alienation and rejection that can lead to radicalization.

 

[Path_Finder]

Maybe per immigrants, there is a problem where you have people who have been in countries like France forever really, 1500 years and then, bringing in totally different cultures.

Again, I’m sure the overwhelming majority of persons, immigrants, present no problem. There is a small percentage and as we have seen, they can create a lot of trouble.

 

[Path_Finder]

Historically, even in the 1700s and 1800s, the French made sure the National Language was French even when their were indeed, a number of different ethnicities there, the most clear example of “others” would be your Celtic types of speakers in that area such as Normandy and so on.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France

 

[edwest2]

The headline is highly simplistic. These types of attacks will continue in any European country deemed the enemy. The French are bombing in Syria, so the same fanatics, by whatever label, attack the French.

Some years ago, an American fighter-bomber was sent on a mission to Libya. He started from England but was not allowed to fly over France. He completed his mission but had to be physically lifted from his aircraft upon returning to England. Having seen the interior of such a cockpit, there is barely room to move your elbows.

Ed

 

[Joyful_Song]

Just food for thought, how many of you have known first hand, or are immigrants from other countries and cultures, who assimilated into the new environment while keeping their native customs and culture too?
5 Examples in my own life are my American born father who lived in France in the early 1950’s, stationed with the Air Force. He did everything he could to embrace the French culture, learned the language fluently, both Parisian and the local dialect; experienced and respected the nuances of the local food and culture, befriended local french people, but still celebrated being an American through his life. yes, he is Catholic and so were most of the local people.
My French mother, who when my parents moved to the US, took as her first priority to become fluent in English, learn the local customs, food, American styles.
My childhood friend, Eva’s family was from Canada. They had a full life in the US, active in the community, spoke English, while retaining their Quebecois culture and language at home.
Also, I recall longtime dear friends and neighbors, whose children went through school with my children, from Taiwan. They also spoke fluent english, participated in community life, while being proud of their chinese language and customs.
Lastly, I worked with a company for 3 years, with two young people from Sudan who came to the US as refugees. They had learned English fluently, worked responsibly, dressed like most mainstream Americans dress, assimilated into American culture, yet not only didn’t forget but also shared their native culture.
What is it that binds a society together- language, food, music, dress, education, community spirit? It seems that the French have received immigrants, then dropped the ball in helping them get established and survive both culturally and economically.

 

[GKC]

The headline is highly simplistic. These types of attacks will continue in any European country deemed the enemy. The French are bombing in Syria, so the same fanatics, by whatever label, attack the French.

Some years ago, an American fighter-bomber was sent on a mission to Libya. He started from England but was not allowed to fly over France. He completed his mission but had to be physically lifted from his aircraft upon returning to England. Having seen the interior of such a cockpit, there is barely room to move your elbows.

Ed

This sounds like El Dorado Canyon, in 1986.

If so, overflight was also denied by Spain and Italy. Along with continental support enroute. Added over 1300 miles to the trip. France claimed the attack was too limited, refused to sanction it.

Mission was flown by by roughly 22 F-111Fs and EF-111As from RAF bases in England, plus Navy elements from carriers in the Gulf of Sidra, who were not, of course, affected by the concept of “overflight.”

The bit about being lifted from the cockpit sounds possible, but who knows. I think the mission for the F/EF-111s was around 12 hours, lift-off to touch down.

 

[TheAtheist]

Padres1969;13440915**:

I think the point is that it might highlight the failure of French style integration

. I have a friend from Ivory Coast who spent time as an immigrant in France (and who still has some family and Ivorian friends there). She has lived in the US for many years now as well so she’s familiar with both countries. Her biggest gripe with Fance is that immigrants are not integrated into the mainline French culture at all. They are kept almost completely apart as a second lower class of citizen and as a result they retain their identity as “non French”. Her feeling on the US is that even with our troubles and guys who think like Trump, that we are far better at integrating immigrants into our country and our culture to a point where immigrants start to feel “American”. That’s not to say they lose their cultural identity entirely, but that they integrate it into their Americanism.

Her basic premise is that if the French would stop clinging to the historic notion of what makes one “French” culturally that they might actually start integrating immigrants, not just Muslim ones mind you, into their nation rather than leaving them as outsiders in their own country far more susceptible to feelings of alienation and rejection that can lead to radicalization.



Every single friend i’ve ever had whose moved to France, whether its from the Middle East, Southeast Asia, or Northern Africa has practically said the same exact thing as your own friend from the Ivory Coast.

When the greater culture rejects you for being “not a part of them” - the youth will seeks other place of belonging.

Sadly - it seems that their options tend to lead toward these pernicious extremist groups.

Its why i always congratulate the Americans for doing a much better job of social integration - hence why the amount of people going to join ISIS is miniscule when compared with the European and Russian populations leaving their homelands to fight the infidel so to speak…

 

[pnewton]

Just food for thought, how many of you have known first hand, or are immigrants from other countries and cultures, who assimilated into the new environment while keeping their native customs and culture too?

My wife’s step-father is French. He totally assimilated and is a deacon. His strong accent is one of things he kept. I remember he hated the response of his native country following 9-11.

 

[Padres1969]

Just food for thought, how many of you have known first hand, or are immigrants from other countries and cultures, who assimilated into the new environment while keeping their native customs and culture too?
5 Examples in my own life are my American born father who lived in France in the early 1950’s, stationed with the Air Force. He did everything he could to embrace the French culture, learned the language fluently, both Parisian and the local dialect; experienced and respected the nuances of the local food and culture, befriended local french people, but still celebrated being an American through his life. yes, he is Catholic and so were most of the local people.
My French mother, who when my parents moved to the US, took as her first priority to become fluent in English, learn the local customs, food, American styles.
My childhood friend, Eva’s family was from Canada. They had a full life in the US, active in the community, spoke English, while retaining their Quebecois culture and language at home.
Also, I recall longtime dear friends and neighbors, whose children went through school with my children, from Taiwan. They also spoke fluent english, participated in community life, while being proud of their chinese language and customs.
Lastly, I worked with a company for 3 years, with two young people from Sudan who came to the US as refugees. They had learned English fluently, worked responsibly, dressed like most mainstream Americans dress, assimilated into American culture, yet not only didn’t forget but also shared their native culture.
What is it that binds a society together- language, food, music, dress, education, community spirit?** It seems that the French have received immigrants, then dropped the ball in helping them get established and survive both culturally and economically.**

Exactly. Mind you as a preface this isn’t to victim blame as obviously some of the attackers were recent migrants even if others were long time citizens. But France and many other European countries and more importantly cultures, are running into a problem. That problem is that what primarily defines their “culture” is something that can’t necessarily be integrated into as they define their culture currently. I mean to be truly French, you must be Français. You can live in their country, speak their language, love their food, but you’ll never be able to be entirely Français no matter what you do. And the French aren’t the only ones. On a lighter note I was reading about a beauty contest winner over in Japan recently. She was born in Japan, is a lifelong Japanese citizen, lived her entire life in Japan, speaks Japanese as her first language, etc… But a large number of Japanese were appalled she was chosen to be Miss Universe Japan because they don’t consider her Japanese simply because her father was a US Serviceman and she’s half black. Even western media referred to her as “half-Japanese” when in reality… she’s simply Japanese.

Now contrast that with the US, with our immigrant formed and defined culture that despite some people’s best efforts, has been and always will be defined by being a very changeable amalgam of pretty much every culture on the planet. I’ve always thought that is the US’s greatest strength in that anyone can come into the US from anywhere, and can become a true American without having to necessarily surrender everything about what they are and still be welcome. If Miss Miyamoto had won Miss Universe in the US, there wouldn’t have been anyone outside of a few malcontents like the KKK who would have said, “she doesn’t represent us” as many in Japan were doing. By the same token the vast number of Muslims in the US integrate into US culture pretty seamlessly. I mean I had a couple of Muslim classmates at my Catholic high school, a couple of whom were first or second generation. And other than the fact they stopped to pray a couple of times a day (more than any of the Christian students I might add), you’d have never known they were any different from anyone else. They were simply American high school students who happened to be Muslims just as I was an American high school student who wasn’t Muslim.

I’m loathe to tell the French their business, but it seems to me they and other countries that are considering accepting immigrants, particularly Muslims from these areas that are war torn, need to do a better job of making them feel like they’re truly members of their new nations, not simply invasive Syrians, Libyan, Yemenis, etc… like their hosts will want them to leave some day.

 

[JurisPrudens]

I think the point is that it might highlight the failure of French style integration. I have a friend from Ivory Coast who spent time as an immigrant in France (and who still has some family and Ivorian friends there). She has lived in the US for many years now as well so she’s familiar with both countries. Her biggest gripe with Fance is that immigrants are not integrated into the mainline French culture at all. They are kept almost completely apart as a second lower class of citizen and as a result they retain their identity as “non French”. Her feeling on the US is that even with our troubles and guys who think like Trump, that we are far better at integrating immigrants into our country and our culture to a point where immigrants start to feel “American”. That’s not to say they lose their cultural identity entirely, but that they integrate it into their Americanism.

Her basic premise is that if the French would stop clinging to the historic notion of what makes one “French” culturally that they might actually start integrating immigrants, not just Muslim ones mind you, into their nation rather than leaving them as outsiders in their own country far more susceptible to feelings of alienation and rejection that can lead to radicalization.

Of course, an immigrant would blame the French for his failure to integrate, not himself.

 

[fhansen]

I think the massacre could have and will take place in other parts of the world, with or without disenfranchised immigrants.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I see this as an obvious failure of Multiculturalism.

A concept that should end in our country ASAP.

 

[Padres1969]

Of course, an immigrant would blame the French for his failure to integrate, not himself.

Possibly. But it’s not for lack of trying on her part. A big obstacle for her was that she was black and from one of their former colonies. It was a big hindrance in her interaction with the French to be not only black but from a former colony. There was no way they’d allow her to integrate. And mind you I’ve known her for quite a while and she was very easily able to integrate into US society so while it may be something about her… I suspect it had more to do with the French. And as other posters have pointed out, her experience isn’t unique.

I see this as an obvious failure of Multiculturalism.

A concept that should end in our country ASAP.

You do realize our country wouldn’t exist without Multiculturalism right

If anything I think this shows the opposite. Multiculturalism works, but you have to actually embrace it, not pay it lip service and then go on as before and ignore the multitude of cultures you’ve got in your country.

 

[fhansen]

I see this as an obvious failure of Multiculturalism.

A concept that should end in our country ASAP.

Yes, religious zealots especially aren’t interested in other’s cultures-and actively oppose their religions.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

It’s probably worthwhile to take note of relative unemployment rates, especially comparing young immigrant men in the French workforce to others in the French workforce.

perso.univ-rennes1.fr/jean-luc.richard/unemployment%20among%20young.pdf

This probably doesn’t come as any surprise, but when you compare people of north African and Middle Eastern origin to those of English, Portuguese, or Italian origin, men from mostly-Muslim countries are separated from everyone else by a good 15 to 20 points at least, and this has been getting worse over time, not better. Some of that has to do with the French economy in general, but it is worth noting that struggles in the labor force are felt the most Muslims in France, most especially those born outside the country.

 

[Padres1969]

It’s probably worthwhile to take note of relative unemployment rates, especially comparing young immigrant men in the French workforce to others in the French workforce.

perso.univ-rennes1.fr/jean-luc.richard/unemployment%20among%20young.pdf

This probably doesn’t come as any surprise, but when you compare people of north African and Middle Eastern origin to those of English, Portuguese, or Italian origin, men from mostly-Muslim countries are separated from everyone else by a good 15 to 20 points at least, and this has been getting worse over time, not better. Some of that has to do with the French economy in general, but it is worth noting that struggles in the labor force are felt the most Muslims in France, most especially those born outside the country.

Idle hands are the devil’s workshop?

Not a bad supposition. I mean Osama Bin Laden was a very well off son of a very rich family that wanted for nothing, but also didn’t really have to work. It became fertile ground for breeding the extremist leader we all came to unfortunately know.

 

[edwest2]

I see this as an obvious failure of Multiculturalism.

A concept that should end in our country ASAP.

I don’t understand. This was a terrorist attack. Since they don’t have the same capabilities as the more advanced countries like the US, they resort to this, even if they die in the process.

Ed