Parish in transition - losing members

[DiZent]

After several years of less than stellar leadership and a brief intervention by the auxiliary Bishop, we got a new pastor in August. So far, the result has not been what we had hoped for and the membership is still dropping like flies. The new pastor is implementing changes, many of which are championed in this forum. While some of these changes are welcome, it has been too much, too fast for this laid back suburban waterfront community. And the reality is, there are many parishes in this area within short driving distances. First, the EMHCs were told they were not dressing appropriately, that the men must wear jacket and tie, and the women must not wear slacks. Many EMHCs quit. While we still have the Why Catholic program for adults, it is no longer promoted. There was no Lenten mission this year and no Benediction after Stations of the Cross. The women of the parish are not happy over their reduced roles. The latest incident involved both the music director and the DRE who have both quit, and the organist will most likely quit in June. The music department was considered one of the best features of this parish under the current director. We’ve had a good mix of traditional & contemporary hymns, two choirs, with piano, pipe organ, flute & contemporary group , and a handbell ensemble. So, the choirs are “on their own” and I am on hiatus from playing handbells until we get a new music director, however, the new pastor is not big on instrumental music. He prefers congregational singing, but wants styles the congregation can’t sing. Right now, I am very sad to lose these two good people. For the first time in 25 years, I am considering changing parishes because this one seems to be losing it’s vibrancy. If I stay, I will just be going through the motions and will be much less involved.

 

[JRKH]

Sorry to hear this.
Hope things turn around soon.

Peace
James

 

[Bluegoat]

This is too bad,

I am a bit curious about the dress code, as far as I know the CC makes no comment about whether women can wear pants or not, so I am surprised that was made mandatory even for those serving a particular role. Is this the pastors personal view on the matter? In any case, it seems to me he might be letting his personal ideas get in the way of his job.

How is the pastor implementing these changes? Does he consult at all, with anyone?

My thought is that someone needs to have a frank talk with him and tell him that he needs to slow down. People are feeling left behind, excluded, and ignored. That is not a good way to minister to people’s needs. Even when change is really required, it should be done in such a way that the parishioners are able to understand and integrate it. And some of these don’t sound like changes that have to happen immediately.

Perhaps this pastor really needs to outline his vision to the parish. But he also needs to understand the parish and how it sees itself. I tend to think that apart from really vital issues, it is a good idea for a new pastor to take the time to get a feel for the people and place before carrying on. Rather like when you move to a new house - you fix the leaky roof right away, but you don’t spend big money on other renos or do major landscaping until you have lived there for a year and seen how the light falls in different seasons, discovered that there are 1000 lilies planted in the garden, or that the basement leaks in the Spring.

 

[puzzleannie]

Many EMHCs quit.
. . .
The latest incident involved both the music director and the DRE who have both quit, and the organist will most likely quit in June.
. . .
I am considering changing parishes .

first you say the new pastor is implementing many changes you are in favor of (I think) but you are considering leaving because of the changes
does not compute

many people in paid and volunteer lay ministry are leaving

that happens quite often with a pastoral change, even without a lot of outward visible changes in the Mass or other aspects of parish life

if the people who are leaving were part of the problem (whatever was percieved as unorthodox or divisive before) then their leaving may be the best thing that could happen to your parish. My guess is there are also a lot of people leaving you may not be aware of–catechists, parish staff, parish council members etc.

New people who are being called to these ministries can’t come in as long as there is an old guard keeping them out, or as long as the ministry is led by people who either are not competent, or not interested in doing the ministry with the mind of the Church.

My advice is stay, look beyond your own niche, which is music–it may even be signalling that it is a time for a change for you personally in how you serve your parish.

When change is imposed from the outside it is often seen as a negative at first, but in retrospect may be viewed down the line as an occasion for immense grace, new ministries, new people, new initiatives, and breaking the SSP curse (same six people who do everything). Please stay and be open to the working of the Holy Spirit in your own life and in the parish.

Some pastors very wisely just wait for people to drop out, then quietly start discerning what ministries need to stay, which need to change, and which are no longer needed or are actually disruptive, and start building again.

 

[DiZent]

first you say the new pastor is implementing many changes you are in favor of (I think) but you are considering leaving because of the changes
does not compute

many people in paid and volunteer lay ministry are leaving

that happens quite often with a pastoral change, even without a lot of outward visible changes in the Mass or other aspects of parish life

if the people who are leaving were part of the problem (whatever was percieved as unorthodox or divisive before) then their leaving may be the best thing that could happen to your parish. My guess is there are also a lot of people leaving you may not be aware of–catechists, parish staff, parish council members etc.

New people who are being called to these ministries can’t come in as long as there is an old guard keeping them out, or as long as the ministry is led by people who either are not competent, or not interested in doing the ministry with the mind of the Church.

My advice is stay, look beyond your own niche, which is music–it may even be signalling that it is a time for a change for you personally in how you serve your parish.

When change is imposed from the outside it is often seen as a negative at first, but in retrospect may be viewed down the line as an occasion for immense grace, new ministries, new people, new initiatives, and breaking the SSP curse (same six people who do everything). Please stay and be open to the working of the Holy Spirit in your own life and in the parish.

Some pastors very wisely just wait for people to drop out, then quietly start discerning what ministries need to stay, which need to change, and which are no longer needed or are actually disruptive, and start building again.

During the time that the Bishop was administrating, some irregularities were corrected, EMHCs wait until after the Lamb of God to come forward, wine poured into chalices before the consecration, etc. Germophobia changed other habits people had adopted. I was open to the changes Father was implementing, though the whole “women shouldn’t wear slacks if they are coming up to the altar” annoyed me. I was up in the choir loft, so I wasn’t particularly affected but I didn’t think it was necessary - the women in slacks were not the ones who dressed immodestly. Though I prefer English, using more Latin in the Mass is also OK with me. Bringing back the paten for the altar servers is IMO, just his personal preference and nothing wrong with that except that it feels like he is trying to take us back to pre-Vatican 2. I was upset but not surprised by some of the other reductions in women’s roles. Not surprised because I’ve seen these things argued here (women not allowed to come forward for foot washing on Holy Thursday, not allowed to sing the Exsultet). Again, I could live with these things because I understand the reasoning behind it. It is the loss of a very special music ministry that is bringing me to this point. I have played handbells there for 15 years and it is painful to lose this.

 

[benedictgal]

Bringing back the paten for the altar servers is IMO, just his personal preference and nothing wrong with that except that it feels like he is trying to take us back to pre-Vatican 2. I was upset but not surprised by some of the other reductions in women’s roles. Not surprised because I’ve seen these things argued here (women not allowed to come forward for foot washing on Holy Thursday, not allowed to sing the Exsultet). Again, I could live with these things because I understand the reasoning behind it. It is the loss of a very special music ministry that is bringing me to this point. I have played handbells there for 15 years and it is painful to lose this.

The patens are not a “shift” to pre-Vatican II. Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

[93.] The Communion-plate for the Communion of the faithful should be retained, so as to avoid the danger of the sacred host or some fragment of it falling.180

It is not merely his opinion, as the documents clearly state that the patens should be retained. The washing of the feet is also found in the documents, Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

1. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came “not to be served, but to serve.” [58] This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.

Since the handbell issue is of most concern to you, perhaps you should schedule an appointment to meet with the pastor. Other than that, he seems to be heading in the right direction (other than the ban on trousers for women).

 

[Dicerning]

If people are leaving a parish because the music isn’t vibrant enough, then they weren’t going to Church for the right reasons anyway.

Benedict himself said a Smaller Purer Church. That is what you are getting at your parish. LUCKY YOU:thumbsup:

 

[kage_ar]

First, the EMHCs were told they were not dressing appropriately, that the men must wear jacket and tie, and the women must not wear slacks. Many EMHCs quit.

Wow, more strict than the Vatican.

Prayers for your pastor.

 

[DiZent]

The patens are not a “shift” to pre-Vatican II. Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

It is not merely his opinion, as the documents clearly state that the patens should be retained. The washing of the feet is also found in the documents, Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

Since the handbell issue is of most concern to you, perhaps you should schedule an appointment to meet with the pastor. Other than that, he seems to be heading in the right direction (other than the ban on trousers for women).

I hadn’t read that about the paten, though I was familiar with the document about foot washing. I’d not be afraid to say that at least half, if not more have never even seen a paten, though we did have the little bells/chimes (forget what they’re called) during the consecration in the 80s. Is there anything in the documents about women not singing the Exsultet?

 

[DiZent]

If people are leaving a parish because the music isn’t vibrant enough, then they weren’t going to Church for the right reasons anyway.

Benedict himself said a Smaller Purer Church. That is what you are getting at your parish. LUCKY YOU:thumbsup:

Yes, I could make about me and Jesus and not be involved in anything. Then it wouldn’t matter where I worshipped, wouldn’t need to register or support any particular parish. People are leaving and that is why the parish is losing vibrancy. It is painful to lose this, and I’m struggling with how to deal with it.

 

[pnewton]

Change is never easy. Some people are incapable of adapting. Like Protestants who hop from Church to Church until they find one made in their image. Catholics who live where choice is abundant can switch parishes based on their own personal tastes.

Some of the changes are not the fault of the new pastor, but rather the old. It is not the one who upholds the teaching of the Church that is to blame for the change being abrupt, but the one who allowed things to slip in the first place.

Yes, the clothing issue is a personal desire on the part of the priest. But what does that say for the man or woman that is willing to pick up roots, however shallow, and move rather than dressing nicely. What if the priest had decided on some sort of alb or robe for the choir? Would one expect them to quit rather than wear a robe? I do not think that would be an issue. It is a minor thing. Yet it precisely because it is minor I do not see why a priest would be resisted on such a small request.

The weeds can lie dormant for quite a while. When the rain comes and spring wakens both the wheat and the weeds, only then can the nature of each be seen.

If you want to leave, leave. If you find it hard to stay, yet do, you might be surprised how much potential for growth will come.

 

[PacoG]

Is there anything in the documents about women not singing the Exsultet?

The preference is for either the deacon or the priest to chant it. From looking at the missal, the deacon is the ordinary declarant of the Exsultet (there is an special blessing that the priest is supposed to pronounce on the deacon), followed by the priest, and lastly by a layperson. One can easily extrapolate that it should be a man who declares the Exsultet since it is ordinarily reserved to the ordained. But really, the preference for the ordained because of the preface dialogue that opens it (i.e. The Lord be with you; Lift up your hearts; Let us give thanks to the Lord our God; It is truly right that with full hearts and minds and voices we should praise the unseen God, the all powerful Father and his only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.) The preference is clearly for (1) the Deacon or (2) the Priest. To quote the instructions on the Exsultet:

*If necessary, the Easter proclamation may be sung by one who is not a deacon. In this case the words My dearest friends up to the end of the introduction are ommitted as is the greeting The Lord be with you. *

Note: there must be a necessity for a layperson to proclaim the Easter Proclamation.

Benedictgal or someone with a liturgy background chime in…

 

[DiZent]

The preference is for either the deacon or the priest to chant it. From looking at the missal, the deacon is the ordinary declarant of the Exsultet (there is an special blessing that the priest is supposed to pronounce on the deacon), followed by the priest, and lastly by a layperson. One can easily extrapolate that it should be a man who declares the Exsultet since it is ordinarily reserved to the ordained. But really, the preference for the ordained because of the preface dialogue that opens it (i.e. The Lord be with you; Lift up your hearts; Let us give thanks to the Lord our God; It is truly right that with full hearts and minds and voices we should praise the unseen God, the all powerful Father and his only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.) The preference is clearly for (1) the Deacon or (2) the Priest. To quote the instructions on the Exsultet:

*If necessary, the Easter proclamation may be sung by one who is not a deacon. In this case the words My dearest friends up to the end of the introduction are ommitted as is the greeting The Lord be with you. *

Note: there must be a necessity for a layperson to proclaim the Easter Proclamation.

Benedictgal or someone with a liturgy background chime in…

Actually, I’m pretty sure that it was the Deacon who sang it, but I remember playing a musical piece at once called the Exsultet, but I’m not sure where - before, after, between proclamations. We hadn’t practiced it this year, so probably weren’t going to play/sing during the Exsultet anyway.

 

[marthagreys]

When I left the Protestant denomination I grew up in to become Catholic, I gave up things that had been important to me for far more than 15 yrs. It was hard, but ultimately a small sacrifice. While the rules about attire do seem to be personal opinion, they are also about respect. People have to wear specific clothing in many areas of life, and it doesn’t mean that we change jobs just because of a new uniform, and we don’t object to our children having to wear certain gym or sports clothing, so why is it such a big deal when the priest, who is the authority figure, wants to ensure dignity and respect? Remember, when God was speaking to Moses from the burning bush, He made Moses remove his sandals because, it was, after all, holy ground - somewhat like being near the tabernacle.

 

[Bluegoat]

Change is never easy. Some people are incapable of adapting. Like Protestants who hop from Church to Church until they find one made in their image. Catholics who live where choice is abundant can switch parishes based on their own personal tastes.

Some of the changes are not the fault of the new pastor, but rather the old. It is not the one who upholds the teaching of the Church that is to blame for the change being abrupt, but the one who allowed things to slip in the first place.

Yes, the clothing issue is a personal desire on the part of the priest. But what does that say for the man or woman that is willing to pick up roots, however shallow, and move rather than dressing nicely. What if the priest had decided on some sort of alb or robe for the choir? Would one expect them to quit rather than wear a robe? I do not think that would be an issue. It is a minor thing. Yet it precisely because it is minor I do not see why a priest would be resisted on such a small request.

The weeds can lie dormant for quite a while. When the rain comes and spring wakens both the wheat and the weeds, only then can the nature of each be seen.

If you want to leave, leave. If you find it hard to stay, yet do, you might be surprised how much potential for growth will come.

I think though that sometimes it is the sum of all the changes rather than the exact change itself. And people begin to feel as if there is no stability, or like maybe worse change will come. If it’s patents today, what will it be tomorrow? Fear of the unknown can be very powerful. In cases where particular ministries are affected,individuals involved may feel like their efforts are being denigrated, or like they are no longer needed at all.

Of course these things may be more about their own perception than the reality, but that doesn’t mean the response should be just to tell them to suck it up. If the person in authority leading the change can manage to make real personal connections with the people, and make sure they know where the changes are leading and how they will fit in, it can go a long way to making the whole thing a good experience for everyone who isn’t determined not to like it.

Some have said here that if people leave over such little things, they had the wrong priorities. But if a little thought and effort could prevent it, I wonder, why lose people over such little things?

 

[benedictgal]

The preference is for either the deacon or the priest to chant it. From looking at the missal, the deacon is the ordinary declarant of the Exsultet (there is an special blessing that the priest is supposed to pronounce on the deacon), followed by the priest, and lastly by a layperson. One can easily extrapolate that it should be a man who declares the Exsultet since it is ordinarily reserved to the ordained. But really, the preference for the ordained because of the preface dialogue that opens it (i.e. The Lord be with you; Lift up your hearts; Let us give thanks to the Lord our God; It is truly right that with full hearts and minds and voices we should praise the unseen God, the all powerful Father and his only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.) The preference is clearly for (1) the Deacon or (2) the Priest. To quote the instructions on the Exsultet:

*If necessary, the Easter proclamation may be sung by one who is not a deacon. In this case the words My dearest friends up to the end of the introduction are ommitted as is the greeting The Lord be with you. *

Note: there must be a necessity for a layperson to proclaim the Easter Proclamation.

Benedictgal or someone with a liturgy background chime in…

Here it is Paco, from Paschale Solemnitatis:

1. The deacon makes the Easter proclamation, which tells by means of a great poetic text the whole Easter mystery, placed in the context of the economy of salvation. In case of necessity, where there is no deacon and the celebrating priest is unable to sing it, a cantor may do so. The bishops’ conferences may adapt this proclamation by inserting into it acclamations from the people. [89]

My pastor sang it once. The only problem was that he sang a paraphrase of it to the beat of a drum. It was an OCP composition. I called the Archdiocese of Portland and even their liturgy office told me that this was wrong. I dread this year’s Vigil for that reason.

 

[ChurchTorch]

After several years of less than stellar leadership and a brief intervention by the auxiliary Bishop, we got a new pastor in August. So far, the result has not been what we had hoped for and the membership is still dropping like flies. The new pastor is implementing changes, many of which are championed in this forum. While some of these changes are welcome, it has been too much, too fast for this laid back suburban waterfront community. And the reality is, there are many parishes in this area within short driving distances. First, the EMHCs were told they were not dressing appropriately, that the men must wear jacket and tie, and the women must not wear slacks. Many EMHCs quit. While we still have the Why Catholic program for adults, it is no longer promoted. There was no Lenten mission this year and no Benediction after Stations of the Cross. The women of the parish are not happy over their reduced roles. The latest incident involved both the music director and the DRE who have both quit, and the organist will most likely quit in June. The music department was considered one of the best features of this parish under the current director. We’ve had a good mix of traditional & contemporary hymns, two choirs, with piano, pipe organ, flute & contemporary group , and a handbell ensemble. So, the choirs are “on their own” and I am on hiatus from playing handbells until we get a new music director, however, the new pastor is not big on instrumental music. He prefers congregational singing, but wants styles the congregation can’t sing. Right now, I am very sad to lose these two good people. For the first time in 25 years, I am considering changing parishes because this one seems to be losing it’s vibrancy. If I stay, I will just be going through the motions and will be much less involved.

It takes great wisdom and patience for a new pastor to understand just how a parish needs to change and at what speed the changes will be successfully tolerated. That’s one thing my current pastor has taught me.

Many people here bemoan changes to the celebration of the Mass at their local parishes over the years not because the changes are illicit but because they do not suit their personal taste. A Mass could be 100% licit and abuse-free yet still not appealing to some. (The 100% charismatic Sunday evening Mass at my own parish comes to mind.)

What they forget is some (perhaps even “most”) were thrilled to see those changes when they were implemented, MUCH LIKE they would be thrilled to see some of the changes often talked about on these forums.

In the end you need to attend Mass where you will be spiritually fed.

 

[whatevergirl]

After several years of less than stellar leadership and a brief intervention by the auxiliary Bishop, we got a new pastor in August. So far, the result has not been what we had hoped for and the membership is still dropping like flies. The new pastor is implementing changes, many of which are championed in this forum. While some of these changes are welcome, it has been too much, too fast for this laid back suburban waterfront community. And the reality is, there are many parishes in this area within short driving distances. First, the EMHCs were told they were not dressing appropriately, that the men must wear jacket and tie, and the women must not wear slacks. Many EMHCs quit. While we still have the Why Catholic program for adults, it is no longer promoted. There was no Lenten mission this year and no Benediction after Stations of the Cross. The women of the parish are not happy over their reduced roles. The latest incident involved both the music director and the DRE who have both quit, and the organist will most likely quit in June. The music department was considered one of the best features of this parish under the current director. We’ve had a good mix of traditional & contemporary hymns, two choirs, with piano, pipe organ, flute & contemporary group , and a handbell ensemble. So, the choirs are “on their own” and I am on hiatus from playing handbells until we get a new music director, however, the new pastor is not big on instrumental music. He prefers congregational singing, but wants styles the congregation can’t sing. Right now, I am very sad to lose these two good people. For the first time in 25 years, I am considering changing parishes because this one seems to be losing it’s vibrancy. If I stay, I will just be going through the motions and will be much less involved.

No Lenten mission but he is more concerned with the attire for EMHC’s? I think that while change isn’t always ‘‘easy,’’ I think it would behoove this pastor to take into consideration some ideas from the congregation. My family and I moved to FL a few years ago, and the masses down here, by and large, are not traditional. (not to me) We changed a few times, until we found the parish that doesn’t water down or change the mass into something it was never intended to be…what I’ve experienced is different than what you’re going through, but I say this because I don’t believe there is anything ‘‘wrong’’ with changing parishes, when things have changed so much, that you no longer feel comfortable there. For my husband and me, we simply cannot sit through mass after mass where there are clear cut liturgical abuses, and the music minister seems to be more important than worshipping the Lord. That was our findings in the 3 various parishes we went to in Florida. Your new pastor HAS to see the diminishing numbers…maybe you could get together with a few people and see if they would be interested in having a meeting with him? If he is completely uninterested in what his parishioners think at all…it might be best to leave. That is not the kind of environment he should be cultivating, one that distances people from him. I wish you luck with this, it’s never easy to go through something like this.

 

[DiZent]

I spoke with a family member who had to make a similar choice a few years back. My parish is not is as dire of straits as that one was/is, but she had to make the decision to leave the parish she grew up in. It is difficult. Our identities are linked with a church we have attended for most of our lives. This was the church that welcomed me back into the faith after many years away. My children and grandchildren were baptized here. And for me, that identity is also tied to the music ministry & the handbell choir. I will talk to Father about the changes in the music and ask if he wants the handbell choir to continue under a new music director. For the time being, I will be a congregant, try to adapt, and do a lot of visiting at neighboring parishes. What I am afraid of is that I will sit there and be painfully aware of the losses.

 

[pro_multis]

People have to wear specific clothing in many areas of life, and it doesn’t mean that we change jobs just because of a new uniform, and we don’t object to our children having to wear certain gym or sports clothing, so why is it such a big deal when the priest, who is the authority figure, wants to ensure dignity and respect?

Because it is a cultural thing: generally, people dress down for the novus ordo. A priest at a N.O. parish is skating on thin ice trying to get EHMCs to put on a shirt and tie to distribute communion. Especially a new guy.