Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Spiller]

I was saying that if I give X to my home parish and still need to give another X to get the new ministry started I am then giving X times 2 or double what I would normally give.

No.

Let’s say for the sake of discussion the chaplaincy will begin operating in January 2009. The cost from January 2009-December 2009 has already been stated at $72K. However they want $18K of the $72K right now.

So you pay your $18K now, while still giving to your existing parish. When the chaplaincy begins in January of 2009 at least $18K of the $72K will have already been collected – so no more than $54K will be required. Does that make sense?

So while you donated your share of the $18K up-front while still giving to your existing parish, that donation reduced the balance you will need to give from January 2009-December 2009 as it is part of the $72K.

 

[JReducation]

We have a large Korean community in our diocese. They do not have their own church and do rent out local parish facilities on a Sunday. They support their own priests who pay rent to the parish where they reside. This has been going on for years. Why don’t they become part of just one local parish? Well because they come from all over each Sunday and they do not get involved in parish life at all, as they pretty much have their own CCD and other programs. So why should a particular parish support them? They are self supporting and are very happy to not be beholding to any one parish, in fact they are not even considered part of our diocese and do not come under the authority of our Bishop (I’m not sure how that works out, they are under a bishop in Korea).

These are missions. Often, a diocese will have a mission in another country. When this happens, the missiion is subject to the diocese that sponsors the mission.

We have many such missions in the United States. Most of them are sponsored by religious orders and not dioceses from other countries. It’s the same arrangement.

We are slowly becoming a mission country for third world countries. We have many missions from India, the Philipines, South America and the Caribbean, becasue the American church cannot provide pastoral care for all the Catholics in the USA. It does not have the clergy to do so. Third world countries are over flooded with diocesan priests and religous. They actually have more religiious than diocesan. Most of South America and the Philipines have more religious than we do in the USA. We even have a few missionaries from Africa starting to come over to the USA, but the largest number come from Asia and South America.

JR

 

[childofmary1143]

I would like to ask the people here who are in favor of the Diocese’s request to answer me a simple question:

How many people must attend an EF Mass in order to comply with the Pope’s mandate?

 

[MrS]

I would like to ask the people here who are in favor of the Diocese’s request to answer me a simple question:

How many people must attend an EF Mass in order to comply with the Pope’s mandate?

My understanding that three is the magic number. Of course those who resist might claim it is 3000 or some other very high number.

B16’s intention is to offer it WILLINGLY where ever there is even a small number who desire it. And it is now the Bishop’s responsiblity to provide, not ignore or reject.

 

[Sure]

My understanding that three is the magic number. Of course those who resist might claim it is 3000 or some other very high number.

B16’s intention is to offer it WILLINGLY where ever there is even a small number who desire it. And it is now the Bishop’s responsiblity to provide, not ignore or reject.

Obviously, the magic number is “enough people to support it.” If a parish can’t keep the priest fed and clothed, the church heated, and the lights on, then can’t claim a “right” to one form of the Mass or the other. Unless you can provide, you get what is available.

 

[JReducation]

My understanding that three is the magic number. Of course those who resist might claim it is 3000 or some other very high number.

B16’s intention is to offer it WILLINGLY where ever there is even a small number who desire it. And it is now the Bishop’s responsiblity to provide, not ignore or reject.

That’s not quite what the Holy Father told the bishops in rome. Here is an exact quote by a Cardinal Sean, OFM Cap, from Boston, who was there.

**"The Holy Father was very clear that the ordinary form of celebrating the Mass will be the new rite, the Norvus Ordo. But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church.

So the Holy Father’s motivation for this decision is pastoral. He does not want this to be seen as establishing two different Roman Rites, but rather one Roman Rite celebrated with different forms. The Motu Propio is his latest attempt at reconciliation. "**

cardinalseansblog.org/?m=200706

He didn’t tell the bishops “you have to do this if the laity demands it.” The laity has no authority over the bishop. The Bishop is the legal head of the local Church.

If you go to the site, Cardinal Sean is the only Brother in the picture, standing to the Pope’s left, your right. Cardinal Sean is a very holy man and a very honest man. He would not deliberately misconstrue what the Pope told them.

JR

 

[estesbob]

My understanding that three is the magic number. Of course those who resist might claim it is 3000 or some other very high number.

B16’s intention is to offer it WILLINGLY where ever there is even a small number who desire it. And it is now the Bishop’s responsiblity to provide, not ignore or reject.

I believe the NCOBCTKTTM has set a goal of one more than whatever the number who request it is.

 

[childofmary1143]

That’s not quite what the Holy Father told the bishops in rome. Here is an exact quote by a Cardinal Sean, OFM Cap, from Boston, who was there.

**"The Holy Father was very clear that the ordinary form of celebrating the Mass will be the new rite, the Norvus Ordo. But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church.

So the Holy Father’s motivation for this decision is pastoral. He does not want this to be seen as establishing two different Roman Rites, but rather one Roman Rite celebrated with different forms. The Motu Propio is his latest attempt at reconciliation. "**

cardinalseansblog.org/?m=200706

He didn’t tell the bishops “you have to do this if the laity demands it.” The laity has no authority over the bishop. The Bishop is the legal head of the local Church.

If you go to the site, Cardinal Sean is the only Brother in the picture, standing to the Pope’s left, your right. Cardinal Sean is a very holy man and a very honest man. He would not deliberately misconstrue what the Pope told them.

JR

Does Cardinal O’Malley provide a link to justify the following passage:

But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church.

 

[JReducation]

My parish could not afford to have diocesan priests. We only had enough money for two and needed more than two. We have a mass on Sat night, five Sunday morning and another Sunday night. He have almost 100 different ministries.

However, we could not afford the priests’ salaries, insurance, retirement, mileage reimbursement, the overhead of keeping our buildings up and running, plus the staff.

We were fortunate that the bishop found a religious community of seven Brothers to run the parish for the same amount of money that two diocesan priests would cost. The Brothers do not own cars, are not allowed to have any kind of insurance or retirement plan, are not allowed to have a home of their own so they don’t have a mortgage and are not allowed to get a salary. They are religious, not diocesan or secular priests are they sometimes called.

Only three of the seven Brothers are ordained, but the other Brothers perform other duties. One is the Director of Religious Education, another is a handyman, another is a mental health counsellor a the local hospital and the superior is a theologian (not a priest). The mental health counsellor and the theologian get a salary at their jobs which they have to give to the community, because they are not allowed to have salaries. When the superior and the counsellor are not working away from the parish, they are working with different parish ministries such as youth, the elderly, marriage preparation, RCIA, spiritual direction, liturgical planning, training adults to perform different ministries, home visits, preaching, etc. This takes a lot off the shoulders of the three brothers who are priests so that they can do the masses and the confessions and baptisms, etc.

The pastor is very fortunate, because his superior is not a priest, so he has the time to do a great deal of the paper work to let the pastor be the pastor

If you want cheap church labour, find a religious community to run the ministry.

But to get a professional, in any field, with that many years of education and experience, to work for you 24/7, with overhead included for $74k a year is a bargain.

Again, we’re not talking about selling prayers, sacraments or faith. We’re talking about justice, paying a worker what he’s worth so that he can support himself. That’s the bottom line. Everyone who works for this ministry: the priest, secretary, DRE and others, have to be paid. Their bills don’t go away because they pray.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Does Cardinal O’Malley provide a link to justify the following passage:

But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church.

No he doesn’t. But you can ask him about it. There is a place in his blog where you can place questions. You can also write his office.

By the way, he’s not Cardinal O’Malley. He’s a Brother. They only use first names, unless it’s a legal requirement. It’s Cardinal Sean.

But go ahead and ask. You may get a reply. He’s a very holy man and a very honest man. If he sees it and has time or someone on his staff has the time, they may reply.

Never know.

I get replies when I ask questons. I usually just write a letter to the chancery.

JR

 

[preV2tradcath]

The TLM has been at the Cathedral for at least 15 years, started under the Ecclesia Dei indult of Pope John Paul II. Originally it was once a month, until it was built up to the current every Sunday and holy day. It will be new at the Basilica in Lewiston.
One nice thing about having Fr. Parent is that we will be sure of having Mass every week. Recently, due to situations like the retirement of one priest, and the fact that another is only available twice a month, a few Masses have been cancelled due to the lack of a priest.
Under the old indult, the recently retired priest I mentioned used to say the once a month Mass in Newcastle. Since the recent motu proprio, the current administrator of the Newcastle parish has learned the Mass, taken over so the Mass can continue there, and plans to have it more frequently.
Once Fr. Parent starts, one good thing for the people in Lewiston is that they won’t have to travel all the way to Portland or Newcastle to attend an approved TLM. The only current option in their area is one said by a priest from a sedevacantist religious order. I am sure we will all agree we don’t want people going to that one.

 

[childofmary1143]

No he doesn’t. But you can ask him about it. There is a place in his blog where you can place questions. You can also write his office.

By the way, he’s not Cardinal O’Malley. He’s a Brother. They only use first names, unless it’s a legal requirement. It’s Cardinal Sean.

But go ahead and ask. You may get a reply. He’s a very holy man and a very honest man. If he sees it and has time or someone on his staff has the time, they may reply.

Never know.

I get replies when I ask questons. I usually just write a letter to the chancery.

JR

Not being from Boston, I have no idea what Cardinal Sean O’Malley LOOKS like. However, that blog is VERY misleading as it shows a man in a Cardinal’s outfit. A Brother is not a Cardinal and should not confuse people like that. I consider that to be very deceptive.

Furthermore I HIGHLY question the authenticity of the comment I asked you that he reported on what the Pope may have said.

Contrary to what some people believe, you don’t have to be SSPX to like the TLM.

Again I would like to ask everyone, how many people have to attend the EF Mass to comply with the Motu Proprio?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ego, pride, rebellion, maybe?

I know some SSPX folks, and I would never describe them that way. I don’t know any of their priests, though, and perhaps that could be descriptive of them. But the regular parishioners? None that I know.

I still think it’s wrong to sort the TLM people out and say “well, you’re kind of like renting the parish hall out for a wedding”. These people are already members of the diocese, and presumably contribute. They might do a lot better than that if they are treated right.

I might have a few details wrong on the following, but I believe they’re basically true.

A very run-down parish in Kansas City was more or less turned over to the TLM folks. It was also in debt. It would have been closed without them. They fixed the church building (stunningly beautiful. An Italianate, almost roccoco confection.), paid off the debt, made a deal with local hotels to run a limousine from the hotels to the church on Sunday so travelers could go to Mass. Doubtless those grateful folks drop something into the plate. They ended up with a million dollar surplus and a concert-quality choir. When Bp Finn was appointed, he asked them to move to another wonderful but rundown church downtown. That’s where they are now, choir and all, and Bp Finn, personally, is the pastor of that extraordinary parish. My understanding is that they’re raising the money to fix that church building and are working on it.

To my way of thinking, those folks are a major asset to the diocese. I’ll bet Bp Finn had a lot of talking to do to induce them to start over after all the work they did and all the money they contributed. But they did it. People like that should not be discouraged. I don’t know very many TLM people, but in KC, at least, they proved their worth.

 

[KathleenElsie]

No.

Let’s say for the sake of discussion the chaplaincy will begin operating in January 2009. The cost from January 2009-December 2009 has already been stated at $72K. However they want $18K of the $72K right now.

So you pay your $18K where does this come from? now, while still giving to your existing parish. When the chaplaincy begins in January of 2009 at least $18K of the $72K will have already been collected – so no more than $54K will be required. Does that make sense? No, until the new situation is actually up and running and while it is being pre-funded it costs those that desire the TLM to pay for both at the same time. It could only be for a few months but it is still paying for two at once.

So while you donated your share of the $18K up-front while still giving to your existing parish, that donation reduced the balance you will need to give from January 2009-December 2009 as it is part of the $72K.

Where do you think that they will get the original start up money? Do you think that we would just stop giving to where to are going to Mass till the new situation is functional? That $ will come from the extra amount over and above the normal amounts given in the home parish. Or do you think that there will be some people that have not been giving to their home parish that will now start donating?

 

[pnewton]

Again I would like to ask everyone, how many people have to attend the EF Mass to comply with the Motu Proprio?

A number was not mentioned in the document. You ask for something which does not exist. It is not unreasonable to expect that the number would dictate the frequency. To have a dedictated priest to a stable TLM community, then is would be reasonable that the number be enough to sustain it.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I know some SSPX folks, and I would never describe them that way. I don’t know any of their priests, though, and perhaps that could be descriptive of them. But the regular parishioners? None that I know.

I still think it’s wrong to sort the TLM people out and say “well, you’re kind of like renting the parish hall out for a wedding”. These people are already members of the diocese, and presumably contribute. They might do a lot better than that if they are treated right.

I might have a few details wrong on the following, but I believe they’re basically true.

A very run-down parish in Kansas City was more or less turned over to the TLM folks. It was also in debt. It would have been closed without them. They fixed the church building (stunningly beautiful. An Italianate, almost roccoco confection.), paid off the debt, made a deal with local hotels to run a limousine from the hotels to the church on Sunday so travelers could go to Mass. Doubtless those grateful folks drop something into the plate. They ended up with a million dollar surplus and a concert-quality choir. When Bp Finn was appointed, he asked them to move to another wonderful but rundown church downtown. That’s where they are now, choir and all, and Bp Finn, personally, is the pastor of that extraordinary parish. My understanding is that they’re raising the money to fix that church building and are working on it.

To my way of thinking, those folks are a major asset to the diocese. I’ll bet Bp Finn had a lot of talking to do to induce them to start over after all the work they did and all the money they contributed. But they did it. People like that should not be discouraged. I don’t know very many TLM people, but in KC, at least, they proved their worth.

It seems that the Traditionalists in Kansas City are not only preserving the true faith “whole and inviolate”, but they are also rebuilding the Churches. Why doesn’t that surprise me?

The sermons for the FSSP Church in Kansas City are available online, and they are all excellent. The website is www.audiosancto.com.

 

[pnewton]

Where do you think that they will get the original start up money? Do you think that we would just stop giving to where to are going to Mass till the new situation is functional?

Some people may take that action. I see nothing wrong with it. If a parish has so many TLM people who will be leaving that it affects them, then perhaps the priest could keep them by offering a TLM Mass weekly. If not, a family or two leaving will not hurt.

 

[childofmary1143]

A number was not mentioned in the document. You ask for something which does not exist. It is not unreasonable to expect that the number would dictate the frequency. To have a dedictated priest to a stable TLM community, then is would be reasonable that the number be enough to sustain it.

Okay fair enough.

If in that diocese you had 72 000 people attending Sunday Mass, then all it would cost is $1 per person per year. However, we all know that would be impossible to have that many people.

I can’t see how this cost can be justified with the use of “rental fees”. In a parish, Mass isn’t the only function that goes on there. You have bible session, catechism for RCIA, Charismatic prayer groups, Rosary, etc.

Now those activities use up parish resources too (hydro, heat). Are they subjected to a $72,000 fee like what is being asked of TLM. Granted if the Diocese appoints a willing Priest, to travel from one parish to the other, then of course money would have to be raised for car maintenance. A salary would be redundant because if there is no interest in the EF there, what happens to the Priest that was supposed to say the EF? Does he get fired from the diocese or does he continue to do what he is doing now. He must be getting paid something now to be in a position to help with the EF later.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

We were fortunate that the bishop found a religious community of seven Brothers to run the parish for the same amount of money that two diocesan priests would cost. The Brothers do not own cars, are not allowed to have any kind of insurance or retirement plan, are not allowed to have a home of their own so they don’t have a mortgage and are not allowed to get a salary. They are religious, not diocesan or secular priests are they sometimes called.

I’ve seen a number of posts from you in the past couple of days that make it sound as if religious priests are somehow available for free. Someone has to pay their expenses!

The religious priests who ran the parish I used to belong to were fully funded by the parish. Parishioners paid their salaries *], paid the expenses for the rectory, paid for their car expenses, paid for maintenance, etc. The priests worked full time in the parish and the parish (and archdiocese) supported them.

*] They received the same salary as diocesan priests which was sent to their treasurer. In return they received the “allowance” (for want of a better word) that the other priests in their order received.

Furthermore, your seven brothers would still need a priest to provide the sacraments.

 

[JReducation]

Not being from Boston, I have no idea what Cardinal Sean O’Malley LOOKS like. However, that blog is VERY misleading as it shows a man in a Cardinal’s outfit. A Brother is not a Cardinal and should not confuse people like that. I consider that to be very deceptive.

It is not confusing to people who know the Capuchin Order. They are all Brothers or Friars (English and Latin). Some of them are ordained. Most are not. Obviously Cardinal Sean is ordained. If you go to the link I gave you above, scroll down to group picture of the Cardinals with the Holy Father. He’s standing next to the Holy Father wearing a brown Brother’s habit. He’s the only Cardinal not wearing the Cardinal’s garb. H

e belongs to the same order as the Pope’s personal theologian, Fra. Reinero. If you rememer, Fra. Reinero preached at the Vatican’s Good Friday Services without vestments and without a stole. He wore the Brother’s habit.

St. Francis never allowed the Capuchins to distinguish among the brothers. The only person who used the title Father was himself. He was not a priest, but he was the founder and General Superior. Once he was no longer the general superior he became Brother Francis. After his canonization he became Holy Father Francis.

I undestand your confusion, because many people don’t know about mendicant and monastic orders. There aren’t too many around. There are only five in the Church.

“Furthermore I HIGHLY question the authenticity of the comment I asked you that he reported on what the Pope may have said.”

As I said, I was quoting what he says in public that the Holy Father told the bishops. I doubt that a very holy man as is Cardinal Sean would put words into the Holy Father’s mouth and state them in public, especially on the Internet, where they are going to me read by thousands of people. This is not the kind of man who is going to deliberatey mislead people. Anyone who has met the man can see how holy he is.

Contrary to what some people believe, you don’t have to be SSPX to like the TLM.

No one said that you have to be SSPX. There are many Tridentine masses within the Catholic Church.

Again I would like to ask everyone, how many people have to attend the EF Mass to comply with the Motu Proprio?

No one has to attend an EF mass to comply with the Motu Propio. The Motu Propio does not demand attendance at the EF. It states that the EF is what it is, a legitimate form of the Latin Rite. Am I misunderstanding your question?

JR