Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[childofmary1143]

No one said that you have to be SSPX. There are many Tridentine masses within the Catholic Church.

Well the quote I had previously highlighted

“But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church.”

seemed to me, to insinuate that the Motu Proprio was solely intended for the SSPX.

No one has to attend an EF mass to comply with the Motu Propio. The Motu Propio does not demand attendance at the EF. It states that the EF is what it is, a legitimate form of the Latin Rite. Am I misunderstanding your question?

JR

I realize that no one HAS to attend to comply with the Motu Proprio. I just wanted a little clarification as to how many, if any number specified at all, was needed to legitimately justify a TLM in a parish.

 

[JReducation]

Well the quote I had previously highlighted

“But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church.”

seemed to me, to insinuate that the Motu Proprio was solely intended for the SSPX.

If you notice the way that the Cardinal paraphrases what the Holy Father said, he is not saying “solely”, but the impression seems to be that this was the Holy Father’s primary reason. There can be secondary concerns as well, such as the faithful who would benefit from it. But this group would not be as worrisome to the Holy Father, because of the key pharse “faithful”. This group is faithful, whether they have EF or OF, they will not leave the Church. Their fidelity and love for the Church has been proven all of these years. I for one and many of my colleagues take our hats off to them.

I realize that no one HAS to attend to comply with the Motu Proprio. I just wanted a little clarification as to how many, if any number specified at all, was needed to legitimately justify a TLM in a parish.

You know, that’s an interesting question, because the Motu Propio does not address it. I imagine that this was left to the bishops and the major religious superiors to decide.

I mention the major religious superiors, because many parishes are administered by religious. When you have religious administering a prarish for a diocese, there always has to be agreement between the bishop and the major superior. It’s a tricky situation. The parish belongs to the diocese and the bishop is the pastor of all parishes. But if those who staff it belong to a religious community, then the staff does not belong to the diocese. They are on loan to the diocese. If a religious community has a problem with the bishop, either for or against something like the EF, then the major superior and the bishop have to iron it out.

A hypothetical case, let’s say that the religious in a parish want the EF, but the bishop says no. The religioius can simply accept the bishop’s word or they can appeal to their major superior who then enters into a dialogue with the bishop. If the bishop continues to say no, then the religious superior has two choices: 1) he orders his religioius to obey the bishopp or 2) he orders his religious to abandon the parish and return it to the bishop. Then it becomes the bishop’s problem to staff it. The same can happen in reverse.

Fortunately, most of the time there is rarely a conflict of interest between bishops and religious who are on loan to his diocese. There have been agreements and understandings long before the religious arrive.

To answer your question, I don’t think there is a magic number. It’s up to those in authority. Unless someone has seen something somewhere. But there is no number in the Motu Propio.

There is no command in the Motu Propio to religious orders. It is directed to Bishops. This frees religious superiors to make their own choices. Usually, when a Pope wants to include clergy from the secular and religious sector he will speak about Bishops and Religious Superiors. You see this a lot in Canon Law. Some sections say Bishops and other sections name both, Bishops and Religious Superiors.

If you find out about that number, share it with us.

JR

 

[Joannm]

These are missions. Often, a diocese will have a mission in another country. When this happens, the missiion is subject to the diocese that sponsors the mission.

We have many such missions in the United States. Most of them are sponsored by religious orders and not dioceses from other countries. It’s the same arrangement.

We are slowly becoming a mission country for third world countries. We have many missions from India, the Philipines, South America and the Caribbean, becasue the American church cannot provide pastoral care for all the Catholics in the USA. It does not have the clergy to do so. Third world countries are over flooded with diocesan priests and religous. They actually have more religiious than diocesan. Most of South America and the Philipines have more religious than we do in the USA. We even have a few missionaries from Africa starting to come over to the USA, but the largest number come from Asia and South America.

JR

Thank you. I never understood how that worked and neither did anyone I’ve asked about it. I guess it was happening for such a long time that no one in the parish knew how it started.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you. I never understood how that worked and neither did anyone I’ve asked about it. I guess it was happening for such a long time that no one in the parish knew how it started.

There are many things that go on behind closed doors that the average person doesn’t know, not because the Church wants to keep all of them a secret. Many times many people who work inside the Church think that most people would not be interested or would not care.

Like today, someone on another thread was questioning me on how St. Francis could possibly have eliminated Gregorian chant from the mass of his order and replaced it with plain chant, Laudas, or straight reading.

The person had no idea what the rights of a Superior General of an Order are, much less that there are Orders and there are Congregations and they have different status in the Church.

Another person was arguing why they couldn’t say the rosary during mass. I explained that the mass is the highest form of prayer, higher than the rosay, why would one want to say the rosary during mass. They were surprised.

Someone else asked why religious didn’t think about their duties to the laity. I had to explain that not all religious orders and congregations were founded for the benefit of the laity, but many were founded for the benefit of the religious themselves, such as contemplative orders.

Someone else wanted to know why Cardinal Sean is called a Brother if he’s a priest. The honestly didn’t know that many orders of Brothers have ordained brothers, but they continue to be Brothers and within their community they have no more status than any Brother who is a cook, a lawyer, a teacher or a retreat master. You’re just another Brother inside the community.

Like this, there are many things that most people don’t know. They often argue it not out of malice, but because we don’t talk about these things that often.

I happened to learn because I studied theology and because of my job.

Such is life, I guess.

JR

 

[Spiller]

Where do you think that they will get the original start up money? Do you think that we would just stop giving to where to are going to Mass till the new situation is functional? That $ will come from the extra amount over and above the normal amounts given in the home parish. Or do you think that there will be some people that have not been giving to their home parish that will now start donating?

I clearly explained the financials. You’re not grasping the facts. I think more than a few angry postings on this subject stem from the fact that some really don’t grasp bookkeeping and the cost to do things.

"Let’s say for the sake of discussion the chaplaincy will begin operating in January 2009. The cost from January 2009-December 2009 has already been stated at $72K. However they want $18K of the $72K right now in April of 2008.

So you pay your $18K. When the chaplaincy begins in January of 2009 **at least $18K of the $72K will have already been collected – **so no more than $54K will be required. Does that make sense? It still sums to $72K

So while you donated your share of the $18K up-front while still giving to your existing parish, that donation reduced the balance you will need to give from January 2009-December 2009 as it is part of the $72K. It’s still $72K for 12 months…"

 

[MrS]

I clearly explained the financials. You’re not grasping the facts. I think more than a few angry postings on this subject stem from the fact that some really don’t grasp bookkeeping and the cost to do things.

"Let’s say for the sake of discussion the chaplaincy will begin operating in January 2009. The cost from January 2009-December 2009 has already been stated at $72K. However they want $18K of the $72K right now in April of 2008.

So you pay your $18K. When the chaplaincy begins in January of 2009 **at least $18K of the $72K will have already been collected – **so no more than $54K will be required. Does that make sense? It still sums to $72K

So while you donated your share of the $18K up-front while still giving to your existing parish, that donation reduced the balance you will need to give from January 2009-December 2009 as it is part of the $72K. It’s still $72K for 12 months…"

…and then the cost for 2010 would be 72K, but nothing “up front”.

Perhaps the whole difficulty will someday be resolved if/when our seminarians are taught both forms of the Mass so that they can properly offer both forms of the Mass… God willing to more Catholics who will learn to love both forms of the Mass, without innovation or creativity or abuse.

.

 

[agr4028]

Again…300 people, five bucks a week. What’s the big deal?

If neither can be mustered, the obviously the “demand” isn’t there.

 

[Brenda_V]

I clearly explained the financials. You’re not grasping the facts. I think more than a few angry postings on this subject stem from the fact that some really don’t grasp bookkeeping and the cost to do things.

"Let’s say for the sake of discussion the chaplaincy will begin operating in January 2009. The cost from January 2009-December 2009 has already been stated at $72K. However they want $18K of the $72K right now in April of 2008.

So you pay your $18K. When the chaplaincy begins in January of 2009 **at least $18K of the $72K will have already been collected – **so no more than $54K will be required. Does that make sense? It still sums to $72K

So while you donated your share of the $18K up-front while still giving to your existing parish, that donation reduced the balance you will need to give from January 2009-December 2009 as it is part of the $72K. It’s still $72K for 12 months…"

…and then the cost for 2010 would be 72K, but nothing “up front”.

Perhaps the whole difficulty will someday be resolved if/when our seminarians are taught both forms of the Mass so that they can properly offer both forms of the Mass… God willing to more Catholics who will learn to love both forms of the Mass, without innovation or creativity or abuse.

.

That is correct. Also for 2010 you will have a financial council in place to help Fr. Parent set the budget! The budget may have to pass the Bishops inspection, at least for a couple of years but why would that be a problem? My Mission Parish’s Priest has to visit with the Bishop at least once a year and once we have a physical plant of our own to worship in and have CCD in he may still need to be visiting with him. I think our older Parishes need to have those visits as well.

Brenda V.

I really think part of the problem is the fact that a Priest with the help of a Bishop have come up with this figure.

 

[Brenda_V]

Again…300 people, five bucks a week. What’s the big deal?

If neither can be mustered, the obviously the “demand” isn’t there.

I think this needs to be clarified - do you mean 300 people or 300 families? Or are you saying 100 families with an average of 3 members (not likely, that means 1 child and I sure don’t know many families at my NO Parish with only 1 child unless they are infertile or the children are grown and out of the house).

I always look at it this way, $14.00 per family, 100 families, that could certainly support this Chaplaincy and of course, some will be able to give more, others less. As a matter of fact part of that first $18,000.00 could come from the NO families who are sympathetic to the needs of these families yet have no desire to belong to the Chaplaincy. We could all dig a little deeper and give a small sum to help. Gee, those of us here on this thread alone could easily come up with $1000.00, probably more because we all agree that the EF is a good thing whether we would go to one regularly or not.

Brenda V.

 

[agr4028]

I think this needs to be clarified - do you mean 300 people or 300 families? Or are you saying 100 families with an average of 3 members (not likely, that means 1 child and I sure don’t know many families at my NO Parish with only 1 child unless they are infertile or the children are grown and out of the house).

I always look at it this way, $14.00 per family, 100 families, that could certainly support this Chaplaincy and of course, some will be able to give more, others less. As a matter of fact part of that first $18,000.00 could come from the NO families who are sympathetic to the needs of these families yet have no desire to belong to the Chaplaincy. We could all dig a little deeper and give a small sum to help. Gee, those of us here on this thread alone could easily come up with $1000.00, probably more because we all agree that the EF is a good thing whether we would go to one regularly or not.

Brenda V.

We generally give $35 per week. (spouse, teenage son, self)

We get whatever priest we get, whatever music we get, whatever EP that priest wants to say, and so forth.

Per family, per person, whatever. To get things exactly the way you want them, 300 donations of five bucks a piece per week is a pittance to pay to get things to your personal tastes…

 

[Brenda_V]

We generally give $35 per week. (spouse, teenage son, self)

We get whatever priest we get, whatever music we get, whatever EP that priest wants to say, and so forth.

Per family, per person, whatever. To get things exactly the way you want them, 300 donations of five bucks a piece per week is a pittance to pay to get things to your personal tastes…

I agree with you but here in this specific thread we have people who want to be more exact than that that is why I think we need to discuss it as per family, not per person.

Think about it, if you have a family of 6 children that would be $5 X 8 = $40.00 for that family - I agree, that is really not a lot of money per week but for some it might be the difference between a couple gallons of milk, eggs and bread or no food whatsoever.

What ever, I think that the Diocese is looking at this in Families and not per person either. 100 families is not a lot of families really, my Parish has over 1000 families (we have so many that I never remember the numbers, I just know that out of 8 Masses on a weekend there is only one Mass that is not very well attended and that is the 7 a.m. one, so imagine a large building - as big as most Cathedrals - with close to SRO attendance and busy confessionals every day and weekend!)

Brenda V.
Brenda V.

 

[Cristiano]

The checkbook says where the heart is.

 

[agr4028]

Think about it, if you have a family of 6 children that would be $5 X 8 = $40.00 for that family - I agree, that is really not a lot of money per week but for some it might be the difference between a couple gallons of milk, eggs and bread or no food whatsoever. Brenda V.

Or a newer car, or more cable channels, or more nights eating out, or more organized sports for the kids, or…

Which is probably closer to the truth

Again, if there isn’t enough demand to come up with $1500 per week, then obviously, it isn’t THAT important to those who want it.

 

[Spiller]

At least half the problem stems from the knee-jerk reactions of some who have preconceived notions that they are being treated unfairly. I think just about any talk of a budget would cause them to act in a reactionary way. The other half seems to stem from the lack of understanding what things actually cost and basic bookkeeping.

Add those two together and there will be people who are will always fly off the handle even when there is no reason to.

 

[Brenda_V]

Or a newer car, or more cable channels, or more nights eating out, or more organized sports for the kids, or…

Which is probably closer to the truth

Again, if there isn’t enough demand to come up with $1500 per week, then obviously, it isn’t THAT important to those who want it.

Oi, yes there are those who fit in the category you are talking about but I know more who fit somewhere in between the very poor I was talking about and those you are. I know plenty of families who never have a new car, don’t pay for tv (cable or satellite), might go out to eat once or twice a year, make everything from scratch because their food dollars go farther that way, buy all their clothes from a second hand store/Goodwill etc. and don’t have any of their children in any organized sports because they cost too much (even school sports have some exorbitant fees).

I do agree with you on the part I highlighted though.

Spiller you indeed have hit the proverbial nail in it’s head when you said “At least half the problem stems from the knee-jerk reactions of some who have preconceived notions that they are being treated unfairly. I think just about any talk of a budget would cause them to act in a reactionary way. The other half seems to stem from the lack of understanding what things actually cost and basic bookkeeping.”

Now we should pray for Fr. Parent and the Bishop who has instituted this Chaplaincy and the people who will join it.
Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee blessed are though among women and blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus. Holy Marry, Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[estesbob]

At least half the problem stems from the knee-jerk reactions of some who have preconceived notions that they are being treated unfairly…

A problem that afflicts our society as a whole.

 

[JReducation]

That is correct. Also for 2010 you will have a financial council in place to help Fr. Parent set the budget! The budget may have to pass the Bishops inspection, at least for a couple of years but why would that be a problem? My Mission Parish’s Priest has to visit with the Bishop at least once a year and once we have a physical plant of our own to worship in and have CCD in he may still need to be visiting with him. I think our older Parishes need to have those visits as well.

Brenda V.

I really think part of the problem is the fact that a Priest with the help of a Bishop have come up with this figure.

You are right Brenda. All parishes and diocesan ministries go through an annual audit. Most large dioceses employ indepnent companies who do this for them. This is done for the sake of the Church and because it’s Federal Law. Otherwise, ministries can’t maintain their non-profit status with the IRS.

The Vatican also requires an audit of every diocese.

The only organizations that are exempt from diocesan audits are organizations and institutions that belong to religious orders or religious congregations. They are audited by their major religious superiors. When a religious community has large amounts of money that they deal with, such as hospitals, colleges and large schools, they too employ privatae accounting firms.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Maybe I’m missing something here. What is so difficult in understanding that a diocesan priest is a secular man with bills and security needs like any other secular man?

Just because he’s a priest doesn’t mean he does not have expenses.

The reason he is called a secular priest is because his personal and financial life are not the responsibility of the Bishop or a religious superior.

If the people who employ him don’t pay him, how is he to live?

If these people don’t want to pay him, don’t hire him.

JR

 

[agr4028]

I do agree with you on the part I highlighted though.

:

Groovy

Makes me feel like a broken clock. At least I’m right twice a day.

 

[Auntie_M]

I have a question about another point made here. Whats wrong with fomal latin examinations? Shouldnt the priest know latin before he gives a mass in latin? I support TLM but I want to know the priest is actually saying whats he suppose to say and not langlish and that he understands it. Just curious of what reason people would be against it.

dito