Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Spiller]

I’m not sure when FSSP priests became free of charge.

I used to attend a TLM with FSSP priests, and saw the financial statements that were provided every year. There was a mortgage payment for the priests’ housing, utility costs, priest salaries, health insurance costs, cable TV bill, telephone bills, housekeepers’ salaries for both priestly residence and the church, groundskeeper salary for the church, church supplies and church secretary salary … I could go on, but it all added up and it was all paid for by parishioner donations. And it was a LOT more than $72,000/year.

They eventually got their own church (which added in church mortgage to the costs) but prior to that had to pay an “upkeep” fee for the borrowed facilities. The article describes it as a rental fee. However you want to describe it, it covers the expenses for lights, water, heating/cooling … those costs are much more than people realize. And if a group of Catholics wants/needs to share church facilities on a permanent/semi-permanent basis, then it only makes sense that they also share church expenses.

From the article, it appears that a priest is being assigned exclusively to the TLM community. And really, this sounds no different from a parish mission growing and proving that they have the people and can absorb the costs of becoming a full-fledged parish church. The TLM community is just being required to “prove” itself a little quicker.

Bingo. The OP was out of line to suggest there was anything wrong with what the bishop is doing.

 

[Spiller]

Traditional Catholics are known to be far more generous, on average, than the average Catholic.

OH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Then why are you suggesting there is anything wrong here?!?!?!?!

“Mass for a family of six – $1.00”

 

[cecilia97]

It sounds like this is not a case of a parish offering varying forms of the Mass, but a completely separate community that doesn’t belong to a specific parish. That being the case, it shouldn’t be up to a particular parish to have to subsidize people from all over the area to the detriment of their own parishioners. In turn, the collection taken up at the Masses offered through the Latin Mass Chaplaincy will benefit its members and not the individual parishes where the Mass is offered. It sounds reasonable to me.

Amen! Example of this near me…we have 4 groups that have petitioned for the EF under the indult. All are getting yesses, from what I’ve heard. Snag…three are parishes with buildings, parishioners, etc. The fourth is just a group of folks. They’ve been told they can have the EF, but they need a church building first.

Buildings cost money. Even priests have to eat meals. Makes sense to me.

I don’t feel bad for these folks at all. My parish has Masses busting at the seams, we’re trying to raise money for a new building, and we still have to pay the same fees to our diocese as every other parish. It’s over $72k.

So, OF parishes **are already **paying this type of money.

 

[Spiller]

…My parish has Masses busting at the seams, we’re trying to raise money for a new building, and we still have to pay the same fees to our diocese as every other parish. It’s over $72k.

So, OF parishes **are already **paying this type of money.

Indeed. One of the biggest concerns around here is that many parishes have back to back Masses – up to 10/day and each one draws well. If an EF Mass is demanded and allowed at each parish, it really cuts into the facility/priestly resources.

We have one EF Mass locally at a nice, centrally located parish. It draws about 100/Mass – a tiny number compared to just about any other Mass.

 

[wraithx]

What is wrong with you people and the Church in general? St John Vianney would be horrified at all of this!

First off, it is blatantly obvious that the people supporting the Bishop are all new Mass goers - so I am not at all surprised to see support for any policy that makes it difficult for traditional Catholics.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY - find a priest (retired or otherwise) who is willing to say Mass, find a ramshackle old building - or even outdoors if the weather suits it, and have an underground Mass - the priest is allowed (under the SP) to say the Mass, the parishoners are allowed to go to it - we don’t need buildings.

A case of communion wine might cost $100 for 10 bottles - it will last for ages because only the Priest consumes it. Communion wafers: $4 for 50 large, $16 for 1,000 small.

Garments and other things required for Mass can be bought on eBay for a low (one off) price.

All priests have their own Chalice - so no cost there. A ciborium on eBay (worthy of use in communion - not some vile glass or wooden thing) can be bought for a reasonable price.

Altar missals can be found in second hand shops and some parishioners even have ones they rescued from the rubbish bins when the new Mass parishes threw everything away in the reforms.

In China, Catholics are killed for attending Mass - they manage to hide out and have Mass (traditional Mass). Why are we discussing 72,000 seriously? Ditch the Bishop’s suggestion and do it yourselves - the Catholics in the early Church did it when forced by the Romans - now we are being forced by members of the Church hierarchy - the fact remains, cost is not a factor in having the True Mass every week.

My old priest was retired and he said the traditional Mass in his cousin’s house every single day. He would not allow us to take up collections (though it was done occasionally against his will to help him out). He is 80 years old. To this day (even after SP) he is still saying his private Mass because the Bishop won’t give him a Church - despite the fact that he has well over 100 regular attendees at his Mass. This was all done lawfully and it was a truly amazing thing to see all of those devout families kneeling on the floor in the living room, dining room, and kitchen just to be at Mass every week.

So - in summary - new Mass Catholics - say what you want - you can have your rich parishes with teen life Masses and altar girls and eucharistic ministers.

And traditional Catholics: build your own community and forget about the rich parishes up the road who look with disdain on you - you have 1,960 years of Saints on your side.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Some of the responses in this thread and on the Anglequeen site really disturb me.

If you only had an idea of how you sound.

There’s a reason many bishops have been slow to accomodate the needs of Traditionalists… you honestly do come across as a bunch of crazy cranks who will just hop on their Huffy bikes and leave if you don’t get your way, anyway.

 

[Spiller]

Some of the responses in this thread and on the Anglequeen site really disturb me.

If you only had an idea of how you sound.

There’s a reason many bishops have been slow to accomodate the needs of Traditionalists… you honestly do come across as a bunch of crazy cranks who will just hop on their Huffy bikes and leave if you don’t get your way, anyway.

I honestly don’t believe that most “traditionalists” are crazy, but I think some “traditionalists” have no real idea just how naive and unfortunately, downright ignorant they appear to others. This might be true in all sectors of the Church but I have never seen where the idiom “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” is more aptly applied.

Sadly it does indeed hurt their credibility as you suggest. They are left in a vicious-cycle where they cannot effect change because their credibility is shot. This leads to frustration which often triggers lamentable behavior when in turn causes a further loss of credibility and the process goes on and on. And it’s sad because many of the changes they long for are things I would love to see myself.

Sometimes I get angry when I know their actions make the probability of actually realizing the change slim to none…

 

[childofmary1143]

Having read all the posts here I would like to ask a question here. Perhaps it was asked but I can’t recall:

Of that $72,000, why is a church rental included in that figure? A rental means that they aren’t building a new church, as that would COST a lot of money, but are they intending to rent a non Catholic church for the TLM? If they are intending to rent a Catholic church, I can’t see how they can justify a rental. Whether we like the TLM or the NO, we are both Catholics.

Also, it should be noted that in every diocese, every parish is “taxed” by the diocese as some parishes make a lot of money and others don’t. The excess gets distributed amongst the have not parishes.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I honestly don’t believe that most “traditionalists” are crazy, but I think some “traditionalists” have no real idea just how naive and unfortunately, downright ignorant they appear to others. This might be true in all sectors of the Church but I have never seen where the idiom “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” is more aptly applied.

Sadly it does indeed hurt their credibility as you suggest. They are left in a vicious-cycle where they cannot effect change because their credibility is shot. This leads to frustration which often triggers lamentable behavior when in turn causes a further loss of credibility and the process goes on and on. And it’s sad because many of the changes they long for are things I would love to see myself.

Sometimes I get angry when I know their actions make the probability of actually realizing the change slim to none…

You express my feelings exactly. I go to a Latin Mass. I really do believe that a return to the pre-VII values and liturgy would be good for the Church and the world. But, I get really discouraged when I see the behavior of so many Traditionalists. I don’t know what percentage of Traditionalists are crazy cranks, but I do know they make the most noise.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Having read all the posts here I would like to ask a question here. Perhaps it was asked but I can’t recall:

Of that $72,000, why is a church rental included in that figure? A rental means that they aren’t building a new church, as that would COST a lot of money, but are they intending to rent a non Catholic church for the TLM? If they are intending to rent a Catholic church, I can’t see how they can justify a rental. Whether we like the TLM or the NO, we are both Catholics.

Also, it should be noted that in every diocese, every parish is “taxed” by the diocese as some parishes make a lot of money and others don’t. The excess gets distributed amongst the have not parishes.

I don’t know how any given church or diocese figures out when, why, or how much rent to charge. But, I do know that my local parish will charge rent for the use of the hall for a parish woman’s prayer group. Maybe it’s just to cover the cost of the utilities and basic wear-and-tear. Maybe the building insurance becomes more expensive with added use. I dunno. But, I doubt they’re making a profit from this.

 

[Kielbasi]

Also, it should be noted that in every diocese, every parish is “taxed” by the diocese as some parishes make a lot of money and others don’t. The excess gets distributed amongst the have not parishes.

A church rental is included in the figure because the Latin Mass isn’t a project or ministry of the host parish.

There are mixed signals here, when you write about Latin Mass community being a “have not” parish. Earlier in the thread, its proposed that TLM goers are actually more generous than the average Catholic and here its implied the exact opposite.

I think the real concern is that attendance and contributions in Portland aren’t going to be enough to pay the costs involved.

 

[childofmary1143]

A church rental is included in the figure because the Latin Mass isn’t a project or ministry of the host parish.

Therein lies the problem. It strikes me as a form of ethnocentrism to think that a TLM isn’t part of the parish. The Pope’s mandate is very clear.

 

[agr4028]

This is sooooooo amazing. It certainly proves that God has a sense of humor

All the parish priests I know now, are maxed out on saying weekend Masses as it is, without adding another Mass to satisfy a small group of die-hards…who seem to think that there is a glut of priests just sitting around wishing they had another Mass to say.

In context, the $72k figure is not unreasonable at all. The thread title is misleading. Consider what one pays (whether it’s a charge, stipend, or donation) to use the church for a wedding or funeral. I’ll betcha it’s far more than the prorated amount of the $72k.

Some seem to feel that it is their “right” to “demand” a TLM in their area. OK fine. But when you’re asked to foot the bill, you gear up the angry mob.

Go figure

 

[pnewton]

I had some thoughts on this. FIrst, other parishes have similar issues. We had a Spanish language parish that just closed a couple of years ago because their donations did not match their expenses. They were forced to merge with another community. Second, this could be a start of a new TLM parish, in which case counting the costs is not such a bad idea. My father-in-law is in a similar situation and the diocese will not allow them to build their own Church in a start up parish with out a certain amount of fund raised.

I see no problem for those wantin to join this new community. Just shift your donations to the new community. It will not take long before enough start up money is available. I bet you these guys will be talking about a building within a year. I will say prayers and offer my Mass for this new venture that God will bless it and prosper it.

Look at it this way. Perhaps some of you could use this as a model in your area. Bishops listen a lot more when a solution is presented with a problem. Furthermore, for those priest in large parishes who can say the TLM but do not, perhaps the talk of exodus to a new TLM community will persuade them to offer an alternative.

 

[LRThunder]

This is sooooooo amazing. It certainly proves that God has a sense of humor

All the parish priests I know now, are maxed out on saying weekend Masses as it is, without adding another Mass to satisfy a small group of die-hards…who seem to think that there is a glut of priests just sitting around wishing they had another Mass to say.

In context, the $72k figure is not unreasonable at all. The thread title is misleading. Consider what one pays (whether it’s a charge, stipend, or donation) to use the church for a wedding or funeral. I’ll betcha it’s far more than the prorated amount of the $72k.

Some seem to feel that it is their “right” to “demand” a TLM in their area. OK fine. But when you’re asked to foot the bill, you gear up the angry mob.

Go figure

But how many people are asked for a similar amount of money for a OF Mass?

The money itself may not be a problem, but the implication is that unless they pay up, no TLM. Even if the cost is reasonable, just the appearance of that could confuse and lead to scandal.

Appearance is everything and given how some groups look down on the TLM with a snobbish look, one can understand why the request for $72,000 for a TLM might seem outrageous.

 

[agr4028]

But how many people are asked for a similar amount of money for a OF Mass?

The money itself may not be a problem, but the implication is that unless they pay up, no TLM. Even if the cost is reasonable, just the appearance of that could confuse and lead to scandal.

Appearance is everything and given how some groups look down on the TLM with a snobbish look, one can understand why the request for $72,000 for a TLM might seem outrageous.

What is outrageous about $1384 per week to cover the costs of providing another Mass on each Sunday? If a parish were to add another NO Mass, you can bet the folks in the decisionmaking process would consider the collection potential (or non-potential) of said Mass.

If a parish has 4 Sunday Masses, is it unreasonable to expect a Sunday collection total of $5536.00 ? Hardly.

 

[LRThunder]

What is outrageous about $1384 per week to cover the costs of providing another Mass on each Sunday? If a parish were to add another NO Mass, you can bet the folks in the decisionmaking process would consider the collection potential (or non-potential) of said Mass.

If a parish has 4 Sunday Masses, is it unreasonable to expect a Sunday collection total of $5536.00 ? Hardly.

I didn’t say the cost was necessarily outrageous, but the impression was given that a TLM would not be offered unless $72,000 was paid. The impression is what is outrageous and needs to be clarified for those who don’t know the facts.

 

[Brenda_V]

But how many people are asked for a similar amount of money for a OF Mass?

What do you think fund raisers are all about in some Parishes or like in mine, when we have our annual Tithing or Sacrificial Giving drive? We are told how much it costs to run the Parish, all the costs and we are asked to pony up the money by pledging a certain amount each week/bi-weekly/monthly. Yes, we are asked to prayerfully consider how much we can give but we are asked to give money to keep the Parish running and we know what the annual budget is so we can gauge better what our contribution should be. As a result my Parish can offer quite a bit to the Parishioners because we get enough money from our tithing that we don’t even charge for CCD! There are small fees for other programs for adults, mostly for cost of materials.

I guess this is why I find it more scandalous that some are all in a twitter over the fact that this group has been told how much it will cost to run their group and that they need to come up with the money. Unfortunately it costs money to run a Parish, our Priests need to eat and have a roof over their heads, we need photo-copies made for things, and other just upkeep not the just the one time fee types of things like vestments etc.

Brenda V.

 

[estesbob]

What is wrong with you people and the Church in general? St John Vianney would be horrified at all of this!

First off, it is blatantly obvious that the people supporting the Bishop are all new Mass goers - so I am not at all surprised to see support for any policy that makes it difficult for traditional Catholics.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY - find a priest (retired or otherwise) who is willing to say Mass, find a ramshackle old building - or even outdoors if the weather suits it, and have an underground Mass - the priest is allowed (under the SP) to say the Mass, the parishoners are allowed to go to it - we don’t need buildings.

A case of communion wine might cost $100 for 10 bottles - it will last for ages because only the Priest consumes it. Communion wafers: $4 for 50 large, $16 for 1,000 small.

Garments and other things required for Mass can be bought on eBay for a low (one off) price.

All priests have their own Chalice - so no cost there. A ciborium on eBay (worthy of use in communion - not some vile glass or wooden thing) can be bought for a reasonable price.

Altar missals can be found in second hand shops and some parishioners even have ones they rescued from the rubbish bins when the new Mass parishes threw everything away in the reforms.

In China, Catholics are killed for attending Mass - they manage to hide out and have Mass (traditional Mass). Why are we discussing 72,000 seriously? Ditch the Bishop’s suggestion and do it yourselves - the Catholics in the early Church did it when forced by the Romans - now we are being forced by members of the Church hierarchy - the fact remains, cost is not a factor in having the True Mass every week.

My old priest was retired and he said the traditional Mass in his cousin’s house every single day. He would not allow us to take up collections (though it was done occasionally against his will to help him out). He is 80 years old. To this day (even after SP) he is still saying his private Mass because the Bishop won’t give him a Church - despite the fact that he has well over 100 regular attendees at his Mass. This was all done lawfully and it was a truly amazing thing to see all of those devout families kneeling on the floor in the living room, dining room, and kitchen just to be at Mass every week.

So - in summary - new Mass Catholics - say what you want - you can have your rich parishes with teen life Masses and altar girls and eucharistic ministers.

And traditional Catholics: build your own community and forget about the rich parishes up the road who look with disdain on you - you have 1,960 years of Saints on your side.

That was an excellent summary of exactly why there is resistance to starting the TLM in many dioceses.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Of that $72,000, why is a church rental included in that figure? A rental means that they aren’t building a new church, as that would COST a lot of money, but are they intending to rent a non Catholic church for the TLM? If they are intending to rent a Catholic church, I can’t see how they can justify a rental. Whether we like the TLM or the NO, we are both Catholics.

Because this Mass does not belong to a particular parish. It would be different if St. So-and-so decided to add one more Mass to their schedule. But they’re not. An additional Mass will be celebrated there for people who belong to a variety of parishes in the area who are simply using the church building.

For my mother’s funeral we were charged $150 for use of the church and I think they charge a lot more than that for weddings. If parishioners have to pay to use the church, why shouldn’t a group of strangers have to pay similarly?

Therein lies the problem. It strikes me as a form of ethnocentrism to think that a TLM isn’t part of the parish. The Pope’s mandate is very clear.

But the people who belong to this chaplaincy are not parishioners. Maybe there are only a handful of people who belong to the parish hosting the EF Mass, not enough to justify adding a Mass to the parish schedule. By drawing from a wider area they are able to get enough people.

I don’t see this as being any different from my Polish-speaking friend and the Masses her group puts together. They like having Mass in Polish so every three months they gather from all around the area and a Polish-speaking priest comes to celebrate Mass for them. I assume that if there were a large number of Polish people in an area (as there may be in Chicago, for example), then their parish would celebrate Mass in that language. But since they’re spread out this is a way for them to get the Mass they like. The difference is, the bishop hasn’t assigned a Polish chaplain specifically to serve them.

But how many people are asked for a similar amount of money for a OF Mass?

At least once a year my pastor talks about the financial needs of the parish and asks us to prayerfully consider how much to donate. The difference is that the people of my parish donate a lot more than $72,000 a year!