Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[cecilia97]

What is wrong with you people and the Church in general? St John Vianney would be horrified at all of this!

First off, it is blatantly obvious that the people supporting the Bishop are all new Mass goers - so I am not at all surprised to see support for any policy that makes it difficult for traditional Catholics.

I’m one of the people petitioning at my parish for the TLM. Economics is economics, no matter what rite you attend.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY - find a priest (retired or otherwise) who is willing to say Mass, find a ramshackle old building - or even outdoors if the weather suits it, and have an underground Mass - the priest is allowed (under the SP) to say the Mass, the parishoners are allowed to go to it - we don’t need buildings.

Does the Church even allow Masses in ramshackle buildings? How reverent is that? We don’t have wedding Masses outdoors.

A case of communion wine might cost $100 for 10 bottles - it will last for ages because only the Priest consumes it. Communion wafers: $4 for 50 large, $16 for 1,000 small.

Garments and other things required for Mass can be bought on eBay for a low (one off) price.

All priests have their own Chalice - so no cost there. A ciborium on eBay (worthy of use in communion - not some vile glass or wooden thing) can be bought for a reasonable price.

Altar missals can be found in second hand shops and some parishioners even have ones they rescued from the rubbish bins when the new Mass parishes threw everything away in the reforms.

The point I’ve tried to make with my DSF postings is that I believe the $72k pays for far more than material things neccessary for a Mass. Is this EF community going to receive any administrative support from the diocese? Is there paperwork involved in the logistics of getting the priest there, etc? All costs money. I’m sorry, we do live in a broken world where things and services require money. How is this different than putting a dollar in the box when lighting a candle? Are you paying the Church to answer your prayer? Of course not! You’re paying the parish for the CANDLE.

In China, Catholics are killed for attending Mass - they manage to hide out and have Mass (traditional Mass). Why are we discussing 72,000 seriously? Ditch the Bishop’s suggestion and do it yourselves - the Catholics in the early Church did it when forced by the Romans - now we are being forced by members of the Church hierarchy - the fact remains, cost is not a factor in having the True Mass every week.

My old priest was retired and he said the traditional Mass in his cousin’s house every single day. He would not allow us to take up collections (though it was done occasionally against his will to help him out). He is 80 years old. To this day (even after SP) he is still saying his private Mass because the Bishop won’t give him a Church - despite the fact that he has well over 100 regular attendees at his Mass. This was all done lawfully and it was a truly amazing thing to see all of those devout families kneeling on the floor in the living room, dining room, and kitchen just to be at Mass every week.

So - in summary - new Mass Catholics - say what you want - you can have your rich parishes with teen life Masses and altar girls and eucharistic ministers.

And traditional Catholics: build your own community and forget about the rich parishes up the road who look with disdain on you - you have 1,960 years of Saints on your side.

My OF parish is DIRT POOR. Literally, our collection in the summer months does not pay our electric bill. We have one very holy priest who says 10+ Masses a week in two languages. We do not have Life Teen or anything like it. We have very few EMHCs even though our Masses are full…and no one complains when that means Mass is an average of 1 hr 20 mins every week. We feel blessed!! We are reverent, and therfore shunned by many around town with more financial resources. But we still pay our $86k in DSF fees to the diocese, just like the rich church up the road with Life Teen and a priest who does not even get out of his CHAIR to help distribute Communion.

Our pastor would die for Christ and His Church, I have no doubt about it. Don’t assume so much about OF Catholics, please.

I invite you to come see my parish for yourself if you’re ever in my area.

 

[cecilia97]

But how many people are asked for a similar amount of money for a OF Mass?

Every parish in my diocese. It’s called the Diocesan Services Fund and it’s a “tax”. Ours for this year is $86k.

 

[wraithx]

Does the Church even allow Masses in ramshackle buildings? How reverent is that? We don’t have wedding Masses outdoors.

First of all, thank you for addressing my points so fully. I think that many parishes are so poor that they have Churches some would consider ramshackle - of course the interior would need to clean - but this is a temporary measure in an extraordinary situation. Better to have the Mass in a poor building than to suffer liturgical abuses in a costly one. These are extraordinary times, and frankly - the difference between the Chinese communists and Bishops who pull these kinds of tricks is not great. Catholics under both oppressors need to resort to special measures.

 

[wraithx]

That was an excellent summary of exactly why there is resistance to starting the TLM in many dioceses.

Really? The partyline we are hearing from most of these bad Bishops is that no one actually wants the Mass. Frankly, the anti-Tradition lot will use any lie they can to keep tradition down.

 

[estesbob]

Really? The partyline we are hearing from most of these bad Bishops is that no one actually wants the Mass. Frankly, the anti-Tradition lot will use any lie they can to keep tradition down.

With every post you make you reinforce my point.

 

[DustinsDad]

I hope this means that the weekly collections from the EF masses at the Basilica of Ss Peter & Paul and the Cathedral Chapel in Portland goes to the Latin Mass Community so they can pay this “bill.”

What would be really bad is if the the Basillca and the Cathedral Chapel “double dipped” taking a percentage of the weekly collection baskets in addition to receiving the payments from the Latin Mass Community. I trust this is not the case.

Seems a strange situation though…most such financial arrangements are not so public and explicit. Ah well,

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Petite]

This is sooooooo amazing. It certainly proves that God has a sense of humor

All the parish priests I know now, are maxed out on saying weekend Masses as it is, without adding another Mass to satisfy a small group of die-hards…who seem to think that there is a glut of priests just sitting around wishing they had another Mass to say.

In context, the $72k figure is not unreasonable at all. The thread title is misleading. Consider what one pays (whether it’s a charge, stipend, or donation) to use the church for a wedding or funeral. I’ll betcha it’s far more than the prorated amount of the $72k.

Some seem to feel that it is their “right” to “demand” a TLM in their area. OK fine. But when you’re asked to foot the bill, you gear up the angry mob.

Go figure

FWIW: For my husband’s funeral–about six years ago–the fee was $200 for the church. When I was making the arrangements with the funeral home, this fee was included–the funeral home ‘paid’ my parish this fee on my behalf. Visitation was not at the church–this was for the funeral Mass ONLY.

If you mulitplied that figured times 52 weeks (assuming one Mass per week), the total is $10,400. That leaves $61,600 for other related expenses, Seems like a bargain to me, cost wise!

 

[brockmac]

Why is it that so many self described “traditional Catholics” seem to have such a problem with the entirely Catholic idea of OBEDIENCE?

We have one poster on here specifically saying to “Ditch the Bishop’s Suggestion.”

The Church is ONE. We are united by the Eucharist, through our bishops and the Pope. To suggest that parts of the community should sever themselves from the local Church in deliberate dissobedience of their ordinary IS NOT Catholic.

I do appreciate the beauty, mystery, and history of the TLM. In fact, I discussed just this past Sunday the possiblility of adding one to our parish with our parochial vicar. He said that if their was sufficient interest in the parish, he would be more than happy to offer it on Sundays, probably very early, as an addition to the current Mass schedule. His Holiness has spokent through SP and the bishops and priests should be as open as possible to accommodating those who wish to attend this form of the liturgy.

But when you reference SP, you must also remember the reverence and respect that our Holy Father expressed for the Mass of Paul VI. Whether you call it the Pauline Mass, the NO Mass, or the OF Mass, it is still a re-presentation of our Lord’s sacrafice on Calvary. Too many “traditionalists” denegrate this form of the Mass and use the term “NO Catholic” as an epithet. Pope Bendict was quite clear in SP that neither Mass is superior to the other. If the both offer again the sacrafice of our Lord, how could one be inferior to the other?

“Traditionalists” accuse “NO Catholics” of trying to suppress the EF, but from the tone of many “traditionalists”, it is they who wish to suppress the OF of the Mass. I pray that all Catholics, whether they prefer the EF or the OF of the Mass may remember the Catholic principles of obedience, humility, and charity.

That said, I don’t find the idea of asking the faithful to support their priest(s) to be abhoront or a form of simony. It is the right thing to do, for “the laborer is worth his wage.” This chaplency will have costs. Someone has to pay for them. If the people asking for the chaplency have the means, they should happily and give of their blessings to support the ministry that feeds them, just as I give to my parish, or to any parish that I visit on a particular Sunday.

 

[mercygate]

It sounds to me as if they want to make sure there is enough support for this ministry in order to keep it going. Is this a wrong thing? I don’t know much about how the Church finances things.

Maybe they are gauging interest in this ministry by the financial commitment of the parishioners. If the attendees to the TLM pony up it is one way to gauge their true commitment.

Just a thought. It actually doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. If enough people are interested and financially support it, it will surely grow!

I agree. The funding supports the priest (including benefits and the considerable travel) plus the expenses of doing business. If the community has no church of its own, it has to rent space, and most people have NO idea what it costs just to open the door and turn on the lights of a church. Just for a little perpective, the heating bill for my parish Church in the winter is $7000 a month.

Basically the diocese is setting up an extraordinary accommodation to provide for the regular, ongoing celetration of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

 

[Spiller]

You express my feelings exactly. I go to a Latin Mass. I really do believe that a return to the pre-VII values and liturgy would be good for the Church and the world. But, I get really discouraged when I see the behavior of so many Traditionalists. I don’t know what percentage of Traditionalists are crazy cranks, but I do know they make the most noise.

My home is a wonderful Latin Rite parish where the the Pauline Mass is celebrated. It’s been my family’s home for 7 generations and while it’s not perfect, I like it there.

My home away from home is an small Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parish – stocked largely with “traditionalist” (Roman) Catholics. I also attend the Tridentine Mass in a neighboring parish. At both of these parishes SO MUCH TIME IS SPENT CARPING ABOUT OTHERS that sometimes I’m not certain I am even in a Catholic parish. So I go there for the sacraments but not for before and after Mass fellowship, which are nothing more than gossip sessions. Gossip sessions filled with a great deal of vitriol and self-triumphalism.

 

[Spiller]

I don’t know how any given church or diocese figures out when, why, or how much rent to charge. But, I do know that my local parish will charge rent for the use of the hall for a parish woman’s prayer group. Maybe it’s just to cover the cost of the utilities and basic wear-and-tear. Maybe the building insurance becomes more expensive with added use. I dunno. But, I doubt they’re making a profit from this.

I’m sure it’s done on a cost basis. Collect all the costs to operate the facility and then allocate a fair percentage to the Tridentine Mass.

 

[Spiller]

Therein lies the problem. It strikes me as a form of ethnocentrism to think that a TLM isn’t part of the parish. The Pope’s mandate is very clear.

Nix. In fact at least around here, the tridentiners would LOVE to have this level of autonomy.

They can give as much as they want and the money will sit in their account – possibly to be used for their own church building one day. Here the entire collection goes to the hosting parish. There never is any savings.

 

[agr4028]

I’m sure it’s done on a cost basis. Collect all the costs to operate the facility and then allocate a fair percentage to the Tridentine Mass.

Bottom line is…if 300 people show up each week, and kick five bucks a piece in the basket, the $72k annual cost would be covered.

So, what’s the big deal here?

 

[mercygate]

Wow, it sounds as if a lot of Catholics expect the Church to be like the Welfare State, with someone else footing the bill.

That’s why the Evangelicals are making inroads in gathering followers. They put their money where their mouths are. We can learn from our Protestant Brethren.

As a Convert to the Catholic Church I am absolutely APPALLED with how little people are aware of the cost of doing business and how they RESENT being asked to contribute.

Very unrealistic.

 

[Spiller]

This is sooooooo amazing. It certainly proves that God has a sense of humor

All the parish priests I know now, are maxed out on saying weekend Masses as it is, without adding another Mass to satisfy a small group of die-hards…who seem to think that there is a glut of priests just sitting around wishing they had another Mass to say.

In context, the $72k figure is not unreasonable at all. The thread title is misleading. Consider what one pays (whether it’s a charge, stipend, or donation) to use the church for a wedding or funeral. I’ll betcha it’s far more than the prorated amount of the $72k.

Some seem to feel that it is their “right” to “demand” a TLM in their area. OK fine. But when you’re asked to foot the bill, you gear up the angry mob.

Go figure

:yup:

 

[mercygate]

True! The difference is ASTOUNDING!!!

Let’s say someone makes $50K/year. Not a huge paycheck by any means. If they are Protestant, many will actually tithe 10% or $5K/year. That’s just about $100.00/week.

Just think about how much you give at Sunday Mass. A buck? Ten? Maybe twenty? At $20.00/week the ratio is still 5:1 which is astounding. Even at $50.00/week, my tithing Protestant counterpart gives TWICE what I give.

It adds up…

I live in a community where the average household brings in $85K/year. The average envelope in my parish (and of the 2400 families, only 800 take envelopes) contains $15/week. The highest weekly giver hands over $75. Next in line is the guy who gives $40.

This ain’t no way to support the enterprise.

 

[Spiller]

FWIW: For my husband’s funeral–about six years ago–the fee was $200 for the church. When I was making the arrangements with the funeral home, this fee was included–the funeral home ‘paid’ my parish this fee on my behalf. Visitation was not at the church–this was for the funeral Mass ONLY.

If you mulitplied that figured times 52 weeks (assuming one Mass per week), the total is $10,400. That leaves $61,600 for other related expenses, Seems like a bargain to me, cost wise!

FWIW, my parish charges $2K to use just the church for weddings.

 

[Spiller]

What is outrageous about $1384 per week to cover the costs of providing another Mass on each Sunday? If a parish were to add another NO Mass, you can bet the folks in the decisionmaking process would consider the collection potential (or non-potential) of said Mass.

If a parish has 4 Sunday Masses, is it unreasonable to expect a Sunday collection total of $5536.00 ? Hardly.

My parish collects three times that with 7 Masses each Sunday.

 

[Spiller]

I live in a community where the average household brings in $85K/year. The average envelope in my parish (and of the 2400 families, only 800 take envelopes) contains $15/week. The highest weekly giver hands over $75. Next in line is the guy who gives $40.

This ain’t no way to support the enterprise.

I agree – but it’s been like that for a long time.

 

[Spiller]

That was an excellent summary of exactly why there is resistance to starting the TLM in many dioceses.

How would you even communicate with someone who labeled others as “New Mass Catholics?”