Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Petite]

No one received a bill. This is no different than a fund raising goal. Shows excellent planning, actually…

I agree–it’s imperative in this day and age that the long range plan/goals and the means to provide these be anticipated!

In the bulletin at my NO parish, the Sunday collection is listed from the previous week, and the figure that the parish needs to meet expenses. At this time, we need a little more than $12,000 a week; most of the time, we’re close to goal. However, the week after Easter, we only collected $8,000!

(It’s a large parish with 9 staff members.) (This includes full time and part time staff, with one very overworked priest).

 

[pnewton]

I think this thread has been good to remind us all of the needs that a parish has to operate. I am not surprised that a traditionalist priest is supportive of such a plan. After all, administration is a vital, if mundane, part of most priests’ duty.

 

[agr4028]

Need I scan all the bulletins I’ve been reading?

But then you’ll probably attack me for providing an erroneous sample, that your sources and opinions are better than mine.

Hey, economy is tough. Time to give it a rest. What’ya say?

We get annual report booklets from our pastor. The back page always contains a breakdown of how many parish families gave in what financial ranges. 32-34% fall in the $1250-1500 annual range. 35% (yes, thirty five percent) of registered parish families give ZERO to $100 recordable dollars per year. The other 40% are scattered between $100 and 30,000 per year.

And don’t hand me that line about anonymous giving in cash. On a weekly basis, the cash amounts to 2-4% of the offetory.

I can probably get copies from the parish office and scan and send them to you. Would that be proof enough?



PS, this is directed at spiller, not provobis

 

[Spiller]

We get annual report booklets from our pastor. The back page always contains a breakdown of how many parish families gave in what financial ranges. 32-34% fall in the $1250-1500 annual range. 35% (yes, thirty five percent) of registered parish families give ZERO to $100 recordable dollars per year. The other 40% are scattered between $100 and 30,000 per year.

And don’t hand me that line about anonymous giving in cash. On a weekly basis, the cash amounts to 2-4% of the offetory.

I can probably get copies from the parish office and scan and send them to you. Would that be proof enough?



PS, this is directed at spiller, not provobis

Your sample is limited to one parish – it may or may not be representative of the Church or even the Church in the USA.

Families actually write $5.00 checks?

The cash component of our collection is nearing 1/3. I don’t believe your 2-4% is common by any means.

 

[agr4028]

Your sample is limited to one parish – it may or may not be representative of the Church or even the Church in the USA.

Families actually write $5.00 checks?

The cash component of our collection is nearing 1/3. I don’t believe your 2-4% is common by any means.

Yes, they do write $5 checks. And the bulk of the cash is ones and fives. I help with the count on Monday mornings. There is a deposit bag from each Mass. We can also break down offetory by Mass.

 

[Unitas]

You don’t have to pay to attend mass, HOWEVER, if you want a SPECIAL SERVICE then be prepared to pay.

A mass is a special service? Since when?

 

[Phemie]

Your sample is limited to one parish – it may or may not be representative of the Church or even the Church in the USA.

Families actually write $5.00 checks?

The cash component of our collection is nearing 1/3. I don’t believe your 2-4% is common by any means.

In my parish they do write $5 cheques.

The anonymous cash donations in our parish each week are anywhere from 20 -25% of the collection.

Last year 1/4 of the 420 families used envelopes. Envelopes represented 75% of donations, 25% of the donations came from anonymous cash in the collection plate.

1 family gave more than $2000; 8 gave over $1000; 19 gave less than $100.

 

[agr4028]

In my parish they do write $5 cheques.

The anonymous cash donations in our parish each week are anywhere from 20 -25% of the collection.

Last year 1/4 of the 420 families used envelopes. Envelopes represented 75% of donations, 25% of the donations came from anonymous cash in the collection plate.

1 family gave more than $2000; 8 gave over $1000; 19 gave less than $100.

Sounds pretty typical. My current parish isn’t the only one I’ve been involved with during my lifetime.

 

[Polaris]

AQ Report

Latin Mass Community to be charged $72,000 for Mass

By John Grasmeier
Angelqueen.org
April, 2008

Since the release of Summorum Pontificum - Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio removing restrictions on celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass - many local prelates and their diocesan hirelings have gone to great lengths to make life as difficult as possible for Catholics seeking to take advantage of it. From requiring priests to sit for formal Latin language examinations before offering the TLM, to suffering difficult (and even unlawful) permission schemes, traditionalist priests and lay persons have had to suffer all types of dubiously devised obstacles laid out for them by hostile ecclesiastical chains of command.

I have a question about another point made here. Whats wrong with fomal latin examinations? Shouldnt the priest know latin before he gives a mass in latin? I support TLM but I want to know the priest is actually saying whats he suppose to say and not langlish and that he understands it. Just curious of what reason people would be against it.

 

[mercygate]

Yes, they do write $5 checks. And the bulk of the cash is ones and fives. I help with the count on Monday mornings. There is a deposit bag from each Mass. We can also break down offetory by Mass.

I don’t know the percent of the cash offering in our parish, but the bills passing under my nose are ALL ones and fives. More ones than fives. Anybody giving more than that generally has enough brains to put it in an envelope so they can claim it on their income tax.

As I said before, in my parish we have 2400 registered families. 800 envelopes. About 475 envelopes are received each week. Average income $85K. Average weekly envelope offering $15.

I call it delirious math.

 

[mercygate]

I have a question about another point made here. Whats wrong with fomal latin examinations? Shouldnt the priest know latin before he gives a mass in latin? I support TLM but I want to know the priest is actually saying whats he suppose to say and not langlish and that he understands it. Just curious of what reason people would be against it.

That WOULD be terrific. But actually, with the side-by-side translation and no thorough understanding of Latin, you can get a pretty good grip on it in short order. The more you do it, the better you get. The actual content of the Mass itself does not change. The propers can be studied in advance. I know priests whose Spanish isn’t all that great, and that’s how they operate.

We had a Filipino priest whose “best” language was Italian. He wrote out his homilies in Italian, had a parishoner translate them, and he read them slowly and carefully . . . You do whatcha gotta do!

 

[didymus]

Has Fr. Z gotten a hold of this yet? He’s sure to incensed! (no pun intended).

In all seriously, this is disheartening and disgusting. Another example of traditional catholics being treated as second-class Christians. Sometimes I wish that a certain group of Bishops would be systematically struck but lightning, but then common sense and charity kick in. I then realize that this is clearly a cross the Lord has given to some of his most devout followers to see if their charity is as deep as it ought to be, and ensure that we (traditionalists) do not follow the example of the SSPX and give up on charity and obedience regarding the magisterium.

That said, I hope that this Diocese recieves thousands of charitable letters begging that these unjust actions be recanted.

The rest of us can pray for these poor souls who are only asking for Mass and recieve a huge bill for it.

Fr Z has got hold of this and he thinks it is not at all unreasonable. See his blog:

A few things occur to me upon reading Father’s letter and the angry and, in my opinion, acrimonious reaction to it. I understand that they may not be sniping at Fr. Parent, but perhaps at others in the chancery or parishes who may have imposed these conditions.

Any number of parish priests could jump in with stories about how many people come to the parish desiring services for one reason or another and have the idea that everything ought to be free for them, without any personal obligation or expense.
This also happens with payment of tuition in Catholic schools and also Sunday giving. Very many Catholics have it in their heads that the pratice of their faith shouldn’t have to cost them anything.

Having a parish costs something. Somebody has to pay for what you receive. When you go to Mass and there is heat or A/C, someone pays the bill. There are bills for lights and salaries for maintenance and cleaning. The priest has the right to a just salary, room and board. If you expect him to travel, his expenses must be paid. [more . . .]

 

[Yerusalyim]

A mass is a special service? Since when?

Since it falls outside the normal ministry of the Parish, when people from outside the parish are the largest users of the service and since a priest is being brought in from the outside of the parish who has to be housed, fed, paid, and insured…what is so hard to comprehend?

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

You know? Maybe there IS a problem with the diocese. Maybe they ARE suspicious of Traditionalists.

But, this is a wonderful opportunity for them. They should raise DOUBLE the amount, and give the extra funds to the diocese. It should be seen as a challenge… “How much can we make above $72k so that we can be a benefit to our Church?”

If people reacted in a positive, enthusiastic, grateful manner, it would stun and amaze everyone. People would say, “Wow! That Latin Mass must really be something special!”

 

[Yerusalyim]

Good Idea Hopeful.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Bingo. It’s time that those who want the Tridentine Mass get out their checkbooks. That’s about $1,400/week – not a huge nut to crack. More difficulty with the up-front money, but that’s also a GREAT indicator of TRUE interest in having the Tridentine Mass.

Any well run parish has a budget. It may seem a little unsettling to break-out the numbers in such a clear manner but there is nothing wrong with it.

Someone is paying all those expenses. It’s not reasonable for someone else to subsidize this group.

The only thing I could possibly see is the diocese eating the church rental for the first year – as it is a sunk cost and there would be very little opportunity cost associated with letting them borrow the church, but charging them seems more than fair.

Here locally the collection at the Tridentine Mass simply goes to the parish where it is celebrated and the visiting (retired) priest gets a stipend from the parish.

Excuse me if I disagree with you. We attend the NO at our local parish. We support with our time, talents and money. We give to the local tax (what the diocese charges us in addition to our regular weekly envelopes). If we EF withdrew our support for the local NO parish it would go bankrupt.

The heat, utilities, maintenance etc are all set and adding another Mass would not change the costs. If the priest was trained in both forms then paying another priest would not be necessary.

Now if a NEW parish or one that was scheduled to close were to be exclusively used as the home parish for only the EF then I can understand the cost just as I understand the costs of any parish. Two totally different things.

 

[Brenda_V]

You know? Maybe there IS a problem with the diocese. Maybe they ARE suspicious of Traditionalists. (Or not _

But, this is a wonderful opportunity for them. They should raise DOUBLE the amount, and give the extra funds to the diocese. It should be seen as a challenge… “How much can we make above $72k so that we can be a benefit to our Church?” (whether the Diocese is or is not suspicious of Traditionalists this is a great idea)

If people reacted in a positive, enthusiastic, grateful manner, it would stun and amaze everyone. People would say, “Wow! That Latin Mass must really be something special!”

Great post Hopeful - look at it positively rather than as victims so as to be a wonderful witness to the beauty of the TLM. Maybe some like me will not have to continuously remind myself that the “victim” and “whiner” are not the norm for those who prefer the TLM, they are just the most vocal. May God bless this new Chaplaincy with a faithful following and their own Parish with a real building eventually. May this become the model for other Diocese who think there is no one interested, let them find out through this example that there indeed is a following, there is a stable group who desires this and perhaps it will expand from one to many Parishes or the wisdom of having the Priests learn Latin well enough to say Mass in the EF so each and every Parish can have an EF as well as their ethnic language Mass and the OF.

Brenda V.

 

[Phemie]

Now if a NEW parish or one that was scheduled to close were to be exclusively used as the home parish for only the EF then I can understand the cost just as I understand the costs of any parish. Two totally different things.

For all practical purposes it IS a new parish, with its own pastor, even though it doesn’t have parish status but for now is a COMMUNITY/CHAPLAINCY. It has its own pastor/chaplain to support.

This COMMUNITY belongs to no individual parish nor should any parish be expected to pick up the cost. I honestly don’t understand why people can’t see that it’s not the same thing as just adding an EF Mass to the parish schedule.

 

[KathleenElsie]

You’re simply not grasping the financials.
These parishiners did not all of a sudden apear. They are and have been supporting the OF parish for years. So not I guess that their tith and other donations should go exclusivly to support the EF.

"The budget for the first year is $72,000.00 and includes **salary, room & board, health insurance and pension, travel expenses, **church rental, office expenses, and other ministry (sic) expenses. If another priest were to be added to the parish his expence would need to be paid also by the whole parish. Or do you believe that only those that desire the EF will gain the benefit of a new priest?

Everything emboldened above are hard costs associated with this chaplaincy. Who is supposed to pay for them if not those making use of the chaplaincy? How much will the receipts of the local OF parish go down at the same time?

The “church rental” is a hard cost too, but because the cost is sunk and because there is little opportunity cost associated with it, I said I would forgive it for the first year – they would effectively be subsidized by the parish members who pays the costs associated with the parish. After that, it would only be fair that they pay their share. We have been paying our fair share of the costs all along.

I think the best part about this – and also the most difficult for some is that they want $18K to get started. That is however a WONDERFUL way to gauge REAL interest. A better way is to ask for everyone that would attend the EF to mark their current envelopes and donations as designated for the EF only. We would then only be obligated to support one ministry.

If people are truly willing to support the Tridentine Mass, this should be a non-issue.

 

[lovesMary]

Hopeful in UK says it best. That’s the attitude that these Evangelical Protestant leaders take. They seem to try to stay positive and remain undefeated, and look for opportunities to grow their ministries.

These complainers, rather, sound like resentful ingrates. They have an opportunity to start a positive new community and they should look at it as such, and try to positively reach out and draw more people, build momemtum, and from a grassroots groundswell start rebuilding the Traditional Church that they long for.

Instead they are biting the hand that feeds them. For example, this thread is very public. I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets back to the Bishop in question. These complainers are poor and uncharitable politicians.