Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Godi]

It doesn’t sound that terrible at all.

The Latin Mass Community is a separate entity and they are using another parish’s facility. Cleaning , lights, gas, wear and tear, plowing the church parking lot, all cost money.

Its a cost sharing proposal and the $72,000 is for the whole year.

Hello! Latin Mass is CATHOLIC, we are all CATHOLIC. The Latin Mass has been declared a right that Catholics may receive on request. Catholics who preferred the Latin Rite have stoically waited over the years and have in obedience dumped money in the collection plate for these liberal happy clappy masses. Whose fault is it that these Dioceses are full of incompletely formed Clergy?

 

[agr4028]

Hello! Latin Mass is CATHOLIC, we are all CATHOLIC. The Latin Mass has been declared a right that Catholics may receive on request. Catholics who preferred the Latin Rite have stoically waited over the years and have in obedience dumped money in the collection plate for these liberal happy clappy masses. Whose fault is it that these Dioceses are full of incompletely formed Clergy?

Helloooooooooo…Mass in the vernacular is Catholic toooooooooo…it was before and after the “Latin Years”.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

There was a question of the EWTN experts:

Funding
Question from on 04-11-2008:

Dear Fr. Mark,

Is it lawful to stipulate that the celebration of the Extraordinary form of the Mass is contingent on funding? We have rec’d a letter from the newly appointed Chaplain stating that this Chaplaincy will only continue if sufficient funding is raised and continues.

Thank you for your reply.

Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 04-12-2008:

Celebration of the extraordinary form of the Mass is more depend on priests who are qualified (in terms of knowing Latin and knowing the rubrics of the 1962 Missal). The extraordinary form may be celebrated by any priest who is qualified with no further permission.

If a bishop has appointed a chaplain special for this ministry, wonderful! I think this sounds as a positive challenge. Those devoted to the extraordinary form should respond generously to such a challenge and encourage others to attend and be supportive.

 

[Spiller]

There was a question of the EWTN experts:

Funding
Question from on 04-11-2008:

Dear Fr. Mark,

Is it lawful to stipulate that the celebration of the Extraordinary form of the Mass is contingent on funding? We have rec’d a letter from the newly appointed Chaplain stating that this Chaplaincy will only continue if sufficient funding is raised and continues.

Thank you for your reply.

Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 04-12-2008:

Celebration of the extraordinary form of the Mass is more depend on priests who are qualified (in terms of knowing Latin and knowing the rubrics of the 1962 Missal). The extraordinary form may be celebrated by any priest who is qualified with no further permission.

If a bishop has appointed a chaplain special for this ministry, wonderful! I think this sounds as a positive challenge. Those devoted to the extraordinary form should respond generously to such a challenge and encourage others to attend and be supportive.

Wonderful.

I hope the conclusion is something like this:

“Hey, we didn’t collect $72,000. Almost $880,000 was given to the chaplaincy. Please call that local Episcopalian minister back and see if he’s still willing to sell us that wonderful church and rectory at a discount price before it’s placed on the market.”

 

[KathleenElsie]

You would not be paying twice. You would be pre-paying some of the fees for the EF.

The bishop is trying to create a community with this chaplaincy. Sadly, more than a few EF Masses will likely be discontinued in some places because of low attendance and limited resources.

While I am pre-paying my expense will go up. You just don’t seem to understand this fact. You can call it pre paying but the fact is that the expenses to those that desire the EF can do one of two things. Pay more for a while or stop paying the parish they are making use of now till the new situation is in place. You keep refusing to understand that we support the parish we are going to now and will need to support the parish we hope to have some day.

I do not say it is unfair it is just a fact. Some people will not be able to handle the extra expense even for a short time. Some will.

 

[Spiller]

Spanish is being compared to the EF because the EF is in Latin and Latin is a language that isn’t spoken by most Americans. While Spanish is spoken by more Americans than certainly Latin, it certainly isn’t the main language in the USA.

HORRID and seemingly bigoted analogy! Easily 25% (on average, and likely far more) of those in the pews in the USA on Sunday count Spanish as their primary language! In some parts of the USA it’s well over 90+%. NO ONE speaks Latin conversationally except possibly for a few pranksters at pharmacists’ conventions and possibly a handful at the Vatican. The comparison smacks so strongly of bigotry and ignorance that it really boggles my mind.

I would like to ask another question: Does this diocese have a history of STRONG support for the EF prior to the Motu Proprio for the Bishop to think that MULTIPLE parishes can support this? It just seems that the Bishop is asking those who support the EF to run before they can walk so to speak.

I think the bishop is doing a wonderful thing. THEN AGAIN if $500.00 was raised and not $18K, he might well put the brakes on the EF before it ever begins – as a result of forward planning.

 

[KathleenElsie]

There was a question of the EWTN experts:

Funding
Question from on 04-11-2008:

Dear Fr. Mark,

Is it lawful to stipulate that the celebration of the Extraordinary form of the Mass is contingent on funding? We have rec’d a letter from the newly appointed Chaplain stating that this Chaplaincy will only continue if sufficient funding is raised and continues.

Thank you for your reply.

Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 04-12-2008:

Celebration of the extraordinary form of the Mass is more depend on priests who are qualified (in terms of knowing Latin and knowing the rubrics of the 1962 Missal). The extraordinary form may be celebrated by any priest who is qualified with no further permission.

If a bishop has appointed a chaplain special for this ministry, wonderful! I think this sounds as a positive challenge. Those devoted to the extraordinary form should respond generously to such a challenge and encourage others to attend and be supportive.

I think the words challenge and encourage are pivotal. They ask those that can to support their efforts. They show a willingness to help.
The words need and must IMHO tend to lead to negative reactions. They may tend to be seen as veiled threats and extortion.

 

[Spiller]

While I am pre-paying my expense will go up. You just don’t seem to understand this fact. You can call it pre paying but the fact is that the expenses to those that desire the EF can do one of two things. Pay more for a while or stop paying the parish they are making use of now till the new situation is in place. You keep refusing to understand that we support the parish we are going to now and will need to support the parish we hope to have some day.

I do not say it is unfair it is just a fact. Some people will not be able to handle the extra expense even for a short time. Some will.

You still don’t grasp what’s going on – you’re not the only one and that’s sad.

What you give to your current parish has NOTHING to do with the chaplaincy – other than when you transfer to the chaplaincy you will likely choose to give to it and not your former parish.

You are trying to co-mingle two mutually exclusive events – giving to your parish and donating to the future of the chaplaincy and it is confusing you. Your comments are analogous to “We have a second collection today for Peter’s Pence. I’ll just take my weekly donation and give it to Peter’s Pence.” Makes absolutely no sense. Or, “They are collecting for St. Vincent de Paul today. I will just give my weekly offering to them instead of my parish.” Makes no sense.

 

[childofmary1143]

HORRID and seemingly bigoted analogy! Easily 25% (on average, and likely far more) of those in the pews in the USA on Sunday count Spanish as their primary language! In some parts of the USA it’s well over 90+%. NO ONE speaks Latin conversationally except possibly for a few pranksters at pharmacists’ conventions and possibly a handful at the Vatican. The comparison smacks so strongly of bigotry and ignorance that it really boggles my mind.

Watch what you speak spiller. For you to accuse me of bigotry (which is a sin) when you don’t even know me is sinful. There are moderators here. As a Canadian, I am not privy to demographic statistics of Spanish speaking citizens in the USA. However nice those statistics are, it does little to convince me that there is bigotry involved.

I think the bishop is doing a wonderful thing. THEN AGAIN if $500.00 was raised and not $18K, he might well put the brakes on the EF before it ever begins – as a result of forward planning.

But the thing is, the Motu Proprio isn’t mandating a chaplaincy. Its granting permission of Priests to say it without Bishop approval. Let me ask you another question:

If they don’t raise the $18,000 or the remainder of $54,000 can’t an individual parish still decide to have the EF?

 

[Auntie_M]

This is to Petertherock as posted by universalindult #276
I take it that you and your parents go to two separate masses. What are their feelings about this. Are they happy that you are not with them in mass? Are you happy that they are not with you in your mass. This is certainly splitting families and, sorry, that is not what the Catholic Church is all about. I have found this to be the case in alot of “split” families. The younger crowd wants the “older” mass while the older crowd is content to do the wishes of the Pope. Are we looking at a generational rebellion? This sure seems like just another attempt to undermine authority. WE WANT THIS OR THAT AND WE WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET WHAT WE WANT? “The spoke that sqeaks the loudest gets the most grease”. The unfortunate mindset of the “now” generation. As I understand “Simony” is the buying and selling of "spiritual things, (God’s gifts, ex: salvation) (CCC page 514, art. 2121) Also, in 2122, “The minister should ask nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by the competent authority, always being careful that the needy are not deprived of the help of the sacrament because of their poverty” The competent authority determines these “offerings” in accordance with the principle that the Christian people ought to contribute to the support of the Church’s ministers. “The laborer deserves his food” If contributing to this “special fund” is beyond your means, then you may need to take that up with your priest.
I’m sure he will make some sort of arrangement for you. I don’t think he will say you can’t have the sacrament because of it. But you may have to “bite the bullet” and partake in the NO until such time as you can support a different mass. My prayers are with you.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

But the thing is, the Motu Proprio isn’t mandating a chaplaincy. Its granting permission of Priests to say it without Bishop approval. Let me ask you another question:

If they don’t raise the $18,000 or the remainder of $54,000 can’t an individual parish still decide to have the EF?

No…the chaplaincy is going beyond what is mandated and giving people who want the EF their own priest and their own community.

Can an individual parish decide to have the EF? One assumes the answer is yes. However, if the people who want that form consist of one or two families from parish A and one or two families from parish B and one or two families from parish C, it seems to me that there won’t be an EF Mass. No parish is going to schedule a separate Mass for a handful of people.

So you have the chaplaincy to bring together people wanting the EF from across the diocese, or you have (probably) nothing.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

IMO, there’s nothing wrong with giving more of your weekly church donation to the new EF chaplaincy until it gets started. That’s all you have to do and it should be able to reach it’s budget goals.

Perhaps the funds could have been mentioned in a more tactful way. Would it have been enough to just explain that the chaplaincy had to meet its own expenses and there was a need to get started raising money immediately?

 

[KathleenElsie]

IMO, there’s nothing wrong with giving more of your weekly church donation to the new EF chaplaincy until it gets started. That’s all you have to do and it should be able to reach it’s budget goals.

Perhaps the funds could have been mentioned in a more tactful way. Would it have been enough to just explain that the chaplaincy had to meet its own expenses and there was a need to get started raising money immediately?

And with that request those that could afford to give, even those that might not go to the EF, would have thought nothing of it. It would then become a ministry that the whole diocese was asked to contribute to. Just like we are all asked to give to the other needs of the whole Catholic Church.

The one way give the impression IMHO of pay or else. The other is lets help everyone celebrate the Holy Mass as the Pope has asked us to do.

 

[universalindult]

This is certainly splitting families and, sorry, that is not what the Catholic Church is all about. I have found this to be the case in alot of “split” families. The younger crowd wants the “older” mass while the older crowd is content to do the wishes of the Pope.

WHAT?!?

Please clarify. Are you implying that the younger crowd wants the TLM while the older crowd wants the Novus Ordo, or vice versa?

Which are you suggesting is “content to do the wishes of the Pope”?

 

[Spiller]

Watch what you speak spiller. For you to accuse me of bigotry (which is a sin) when you don’t even know me is sinful. There are moderators here. As a Canadian, I am not privy to demographic statistics of Spanish speaking citizens in the USA. However nice those statistics are, it does little to convince me that there is bigotry involved.

I am DEEPLY offended that anyone would try to justify the celebration of the EF by focusing on the Mass celebrated in a language other than English for those who are native speakers of said language. For people who do not understand English! Sounded bigoted to me. Why not focus on poorly attended Pauline Masses celebrated in English for possible conversion to the EF rather than the Pauline Mass celebrated in Spanish?

But the thing is, the Motu Proprio isn’t mandating a chaplaincy. Its granting permission of Priests to say it without Bishop approval. Let me ask you another question:

So? Everything costs money – a fact lost on some here it would appear based on the comments.

If they don’t raise the $18,000 or the remainder of $54,000 can’t an individual parish still decide to have the EF?

Sure, but who is going to pay for the resources? In my parish we have 8 Masses every Saturday night/Sunday. We used to have 3 priests, now we have 2. So each one now celebrates at least 3 Masses every Sunday – largely to a 75%+ filled church. That pretty much keeps the church building packed. So the priestly resource is exhausted as well as the physical plant. Now what?

Make one of the priests learn the Tridentine and convert one of the Masses to the EF? Probably not as the vast majority attending here much prefer the OF. Make them celebrate yet another Mass each Sunday for a small number of people at possibly 3:30-4:30 when the church is not booked? Again, probably not.

Now if someone actually took the initiative and found a “retired” (or other) priest willing to celebrate the Tridentine Mass and found a suitable location at a suitable time (perhaps if the parish has a chapel?) and footed the bill for the visiting priest’s stipend and other associated costs, I don’t see where there would be a problem.

The difference is that’s an ideal hypothetical – easier said than done, and this bishop is planning on a far larger outreach. When all is said and done, the cost and the planning is both reasonable and good.

 

[Spiller]

IMO, there’s nothing wrong with giving more of your weekly church donation to the new EF chaplaincy until it gets started. That’s all you have to do and it should be able to reach it’s budget goals.

Perhaps the funds could have been mentioned in a more tactful way. Would it have been enough to just explain that the chaplaincy had to meet its own expenses and there was a need to get started raising money immediately?

That would be wrong. That would be like taking your weekly donation to your parish and giving it to a special second collection.

 

[universalindult]

I am DEEPLY offended that anyone would try to justify the celebration of the EF by focusing on the Mass celebrated in a language other than English for those who are native speakers of said language. For people who do not understand English! Sounded bigoted to me.

The way you are twisting everything in this thread is DEEPLY offensive, and obviously bigoted against a known minority beloved by our Holy Father…TLM attendees.

 

[Spiller]

The way you are twisting everything in this thread is DEEPLY offensive, and obviously bigoted against a known minority beloved by our Holy Father…TLM attendees.

Not at all.

Many people can look though this thread and see the craziness. The demands to excommunicate a bishop. The charges of simony The inability to understand basic planning and bookkeeping. And most of all reacting in a defensive, knee-jerk manner based on unsubstantiated feelings of being taken advantage of.

If the people who would populate this EF are anything like some on this thread, I can see why the bishop is going through such a planning process. Look closely at your OP. If I was a bishop and I had to plant an EF for people who would write something like that, I too would tread VERY carefully…

 

[pnewton]

You keep refusing to understand that we support the parish we are going to now and will need to support the parish we hope to have some day.

But you do not have to give more. That would be a choice. There is nothing immoral or unfair in just redirecting your giving to your future chaplaincy, which might even evolve into your parish one day.

The Spanish Mass comparison is lame, as these are offered where the number of Spanish speaking Americans are a far greater percentage than those who want the TLM. A better comparison would be a ne start up parish in a new community. In this case, of course local people could divert their giving toward a new future parish, even if they had to attend their old one for a few months until the ball could get rolling,

 

[pnewton]

If they don’t raise the $18,000 or the remainder of $54,000 can’t an individual parish still decide to have the EF?

Whether they do or don’t raise the money, a local priest can still say the TLM. I do not believe anything ties the two issues.