Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Spiller]

It seems that the recurring theme in this thread is what the potential congregation members want from the Church, not what the Church asks of it’s congregation members.

As a Catholic President once said, “Ask not what your…”

So true. I really wonder if the OP expected most people to agree with him?

 

[LouisH]

In my previous post about the young priest who learned Latin so as to celebrate the extraordinary rite of Mass, I said that he was criticized for making some mistakes. They were not serious mistakes such as saying the words of consecration wrong. They were mistakes such as forgetting for a few seconds to keep his thumbs and forefingers together after consecrating the Host.

 

[ethelzguy]

How unfortunate for him and his efforts.

 

[Spiller]

In my previous post about the young priest who learned Latin so as to celebrate the extraordinary rite of Mass, I said that he was criticized for making some mistakes. They were not serious mistakes such as saying the words of consecration wrong. They were mistakes such as forgetting for a few seconds to keep his thumbs and forefingers together after consecrating the Host.

Sadly that often seems to be the sorts of “defects” focused upon by quite a few who seek-out the EF. Almost as if they are evaluating the Mass and not taking part in it.

Something is wrong with a person who confronts a priest on such a non-issue.

 

[Auntie_M]

In my previous post about the young priest who learned Latin so as to celebrate the extraordinary rite of Mass, I said that he was criticized for making some mistakes. They were not serious mistakes such as saying the words of consecration wrong. They were mistakes such as forgetting for a few seconds to keep his thumbs and forefingers together after consecrating the Host.

I really don’t understand all this…What is the importance of the finger /thumb thing.

 

[JReducation]

In my previous post about the young priest who learned Latin so as to celebrate the extraordinary rite of Mass, I said that he was criticized for making some mistakes. They were not serious mistakes such as saying the words of consecration wrong. They were mistakes such as forgetting for a few seconds to keep his thumbs and forefingers together after consecrating the Host.

I am always stunned by things like this. I was remembering what our Holy Father St. Francis said in one of the writings that he left our community.

“If I see an angel and the most sinful priest, I will kneel and kiss the hands of priest, for only through him can we see anything of the physical Lord Jesus Christ on Earth.”

It’s not that St. Francis was promoting sinful priests over angels. The point is deeper than that. Our focus is not on the priest, but on the Eucharist, the preisthood cannot be separated from the Eucharist nor the other way around.

To focus on the externals to such a degree that one forgets the Sacraments and focuses on gestures or words that neither add or detract from the Sacraments of Eucharist and Holy Orders is to miss the mysticism of the sacraments. They are treated as rituals and the priest as a miracle worker, rather than mysteries.

JR

 

[preV2tradcath]

I really don’t understand all this…What is the importance of the finger /thumb thing.

Auntie M, the following which explains it is taken from the fisheaters website:

After this, to help ensure that not even the tiniest particle of the consecrated Host that might adhere to his fingers is lost, he never disjoins his fingers and thumb (except when he is to take the Host) until he washes his fingers at the ablutions after Communion.

After this = after the consecration of the host.

The quote is from this link: fisheaters.com/TLMinstructions.html
It is a good explination of the entire extraordinary form of the Mass.

 

[maurin]

Ok, let’s see…

I have recently moved to a Diocese that does not offer the TLM. Instead, I am subjected to assisting at Mass in a Parish which does not have either Our Crucified Lord or Our Eucharistic Lord in the Sanctuary. Instead, there is a permanently affixed 40 foot tall mosaic of Christ of the Divine Mercy between 2 giant video screens (I love Christ of the Divine Mercy, by the way, and frequently avail myself of the Chaplet…I’m just not sure that the image is appropriately replacing the Crucifix above and behind the Altar).

Our Priests (I thought I was fortunate to have “Priests” rather than “one Priest” serving the Parish), think nothing of changing the words of the Mass to suit them, changing the rubrics of the Mass to suit them (The Lord is with you…Please sit as this beautiful Gospel is proclaimed…).

I’d gladly go into the entire 72,000 dollar debt by myself if it meant I could assist at merely a Reverant NO Mass.

Please don’t complain about sharing the expense of having the line between Heaven and earth erased. There are some of us who are patiently and prayerfully awaiting our purgatory on earth to pass away.

 

[THurifer2]

As Bishop Malone announced, the Chaplaincy will be funded by those benefiting from this ministry,…

The entire diocese should pay for this then since everyone benfits from the EF Mass…The graces are priceless.

 

[ethelzguy]

As Bishop Malone announced, the Chaplaincy will be funded by those benefiting from this ministry,…

The entire diocese should pay for this then since everyone benfits from the EF Mass…The graces are priceless.

I would respectfully disagree. I personally would not benefit one iota MORE attending a TLM over the NO at my parish.

 

[pnewton]

I would respectfully disagree. I personally would not benefit one iota MORE attending a TLM over the NO at my parish.

I know what he means about us all benefitting. There is a connection within the body of Christ that what helps one part helps the whole. However, I thinkg that misses the bishops point. In context the less spiritualization of the statement is that those who directly benefit should pay. The Catholic model is such that parishes handle their own expenses. To say the whole diocese benefits and should pay is more of a socialistic model where all contributions would be pooled in common, then doled out to the parishes as the bishop sees fit. Since this is not done on a parish level, it would be unequitable to do it for this chaplaincy.

 

[ethelzguy]

I know what he means about us all benefitting. There is a connection within the body of Christ that what helps one part helps the whole. However, I thinkg that misses the bishops point. In context the less spiritualization of the statement is that those who directly benefit should pay. The Catholic model is such that parishes handle their own expenses. To say the whole diocese benefits and should pay is more of a socialistic model where all contributions would be pooled in common, then doled out to the parishes as the bishop sees fit. Since this is not done on a parish level, it would be unequitable to do it for this chaplaincy.

:yup:

 

[JReducation]

Our priest are human and there is definitely a posibility of error. But, my response to my priest…in private…would be to ask him to explain the “error” to me as I don’t understand what it means. And as he is explaining to me, IF he is wrong, he will realize it and correct himself…
AND If I am in the wrong, then I will have learned something new about our faith, haven’t I?..AND THIS WAY no one goes away insulted or with hurt feelings…Thank you …

I’ll ditto what you said and add that this approach leaves the door open to the Holy Spirit to shed light on both persons. No one is judging.

JR

 

[JReducation]

As Bishop Malone announced, the Chaplaincy will be funded by those benefiting from this ministry,…

The entire diocese should pay for this then since everyone benfits from the EF Mass…The graces are priceless.

If you want to apply this logic I hope you have a big big checking account. Everyone benefits from the life of cloistered nuns, cloistered monks and hermits.

Lets see:

Poor Clares
Cloistered Dominicans
Cloistered Benedictines
Cloistered Augustinians
Carthusians
Cistercians
Trappists
Camaldolese
Adorers of the Holy Spirit
Cloistered Carmelites
Cloistered Missionaries of Charity
Cloistered Maryknoll Nuns
Visitation Nuns
Franciscan Hermits

We benefit from all of these people’s lives and prayers. Should we make every diocese that has contemplative religious pay for their upkeep and their need when they get old and sick? We don’t do that now.

JR

 

[bobzills]

If you want to apply this logic I hope you have a big big checking account. Everyone benefits from the life of cloistered nuns, cloistered monks and hermits.

Lets see:

Poor Clares
Cloistered Dominicans
Cloistered Benedictines
Cloistered Augustinians
Carthusians
Cistercians
Trappists
Camaldolese
Adorers of the Holy Spirit
Cloistered Carmelites
Cloistered Missionaries of Charity
Cloistered Maryknoll Nuns
Visitation Nuns
Franciscan Hermits

We benefit from all of these people’s lives and prayers. Should we make every diocese that has contemplative religious pay for their upkeep and their need when they get old and sick? We don’t do that now.

JR

Yes. Catholics could give more than they give now. For example, in a recent sermon at our Church a priest said that tithing brings untold benefits to those who agree to give at least ten percent of their total income to the Church.

 

[JReducation]

Yes. Catholics could give more than they give now. For example, in a recent sermon at our Church a priest said that tithing brings untold benefits to those who agree to give at least ten percent of their total income to the Church.

Hi Bob

My point is that HF said that since the Tridentine mass would benefit the entire diocese on a spiritual level, then the entire diocese should pay for the expense.

I’m pointing out that if you’re going to aks a diocese to pay for something that benefits it at a spiritual level, how come no diocese financially supports cloistered orders.

All cloistered orders are for the good of the Church. Yet the Church says that they cannot open a house in a diocese unless they can provide for their own support and not be a financial burden on the diocese. Once they can no longer support themselves, the Church closes them down. They are not subsidized.

The monks, hermits or nuns in cloistered orders who cannot support themselves financially are not allowed to ask for diocesan help. They can as the faithful through campaigns, but not the official diocese. If they do not come up with the money, they have to borrow it. If that doesn’t work, they have to close down their monasteries and merge with another monastery that is financially afloat.

If the logic is that a diocese has to support a TLM ministry because it’s good for everyone, then the people in that diocese should also support every cloistered monastery within that diocese, because that’s good for the people too.

JR

 

[bobzills]

Hi Bob

My point is that HF said that since the Tridentine mass would benefit the entire diocese on a spiritual level, then the entire diocese should pay for the expense.

I’m pointing out that if you’re going to aks a diocese to pay for something that benefits it at a spiritual level, how come no diocese financially supports cloistered orders.

All cloistered orders are for the good of the Church. Yet the Church says that they cannot open a house in a diocese unless they can provide for their own support and not be a financial burden on the diocese. Once they can no longer support themselves, the Church closes them down. They are not subsidized.

The monks, hermits or nuns in cloistered orders who cannot support themselves financially are not allowed to ask for diocesan help. They can as the faithful through campaigns, but not the official diocese. If they do not come up with the money, they have to borrow it. If that doesn’t work, they have to close down their monasteries and merge with another monastery that is financially afloat.

If the logic is that a diocese has to support a TLM ministry because it’s good for everyone, then the people in that diocese should also support every cloistered monastery within that diocese, because that’s good for the people too.

JR

I don’t know, but I guess that if Catholics were to tithe and give ten percent or more of their gross income, then the type of billing that you are talking about would not really be necessary.

 

[whiteknite]

The church should melt down all them Gold candle sticks and waver the price of church rental and as for the priest!
Doesnt the vatican pay his wages??
I have never seen a poor priest were i live…

 

[JReducation]

The church should melt down all them Gold candle sticks and waver the price of church rental and as for the priest!
Doesnt the vatican pay his wages??
I have never seen a poor priest were i live…

White

A priest can be secular or religious.

If he is secular he is paid a salary which he keeps and disposes of as he wishes.

If he is religious, his community is paid for his services.

In both cases, the parish, hospital, prison, college, school or whatever ministry the priest works for pays the salary, not the Vatican. Priests do not work for the Vatican.

Justice says that you and I must pay the labourer for his work. If someone does a job for you or me, then we are responsible for paying him, not everyone else.

As to melting down stuff, the Church has not more authority to melt down this stuff than you and I do. It is not the property of the priest. It is the property of the diocese or the organization that runs the ministry. We cannot demand that other people get rid of their things so that we can get something for nothing.

This has been done, but it is strictly voluntary.

There is a story about our Holy Father Francis giving away the missal of the friary to a woman who had no money to feed her family. He told her to sell them. The friars had to walk into town, several miles, to go to mass, until the missal could be replaced. But this is voluntary.

This was property that was entrusted to the Brothers for their use and the Superior General of the Order decided that the woman’s need was greater than that of the Brothers. These are judgement calls. We can’t make those demands on individual pastors, bishops or religious superiors.

JR

 

[whiteknite]

People give donations to the upkeep of the church and its priest etc…
To make them pay to use the church is daft in itself or this thread wouldnt be on going.