Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[Auntie_M]

I really wonder how people can continue to justify running the Church as a corporation where a black bottom line is the most important goal and not a church where souls are at stake.

I really wonder how people can continue to justify running a “country, USA and having expensive wars” like a corporation where a black bottom line is more important than people’s LIVES, Where we fight for the freedom of having freedom? Silly too, huh?

HUMMMMMMMMM:shrug:

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

I am really confused. If you go to a sporting event at the local arena you have to pay, even if the the arena is making money, that’s just good common sense.

Further, I am sure there are certain variable costs that need to be covered by the adding of the mass. Is asking for the ones that directly benefit for the added mass to pay for it too much?

Try to organize your own church mass, pay the priest to come, support the diocese, administer it, insure it, pay the rent, pay the janitor, pay the heat, pay the water, print the bulletins, advertise it all for $1400 per week. Not to mention all the sacred vessel initial investments required. Sounds like a bargain to me,…

If the additional cost is about $1400 per week and 150 people attended then that’s $9.33 per week per person. I don’t know what you pay for a movie ticket in your area, but we pay $9.50 each. And you still have to pay for the popcorn and drinks and candy…

 

[Conservative]

I know I’ve participated in this thread earlier - but I’m still questioning some issues:

1. This Church is not a new building, correct? It already exists?
2. Is the building already open for Masses, other than TLM, the same morning? (I bring this up because of heating issues, etc.)
3. $72,000 a year? I’ve never made that salary in my whole life. I’m still trying to justify the amount.

The biggest question - is when a Church is first built - do they go around the neighborhood canvassing for money from prospective parishioners? I’m not in finance, and I don’t know what expenses would be incurred by this parish for having one TLM Mass - nor do I know the attendance level. I DO know of a local Church (SMALL) which tried the TLM years ago - during Pope John Paul II’s reign - on Saturday’s only. No up-front money demands were made, to my knowledge. Sadly, in this Church, I THINK the large crowd dwindled - (and I don’t know why) - but perhaps they preferred Sundays. Let’s face it, Traditionalists want Tradition. Perhaps, they just went to alternate TLM locations ON a Sunday, which WERE available even if they had to travel further for them.

I think that priests and Bishops should really look towards how financially generous Traditionalists are and how far they will travel (gas prices or not) for the TLM. As much as we’ve discussed this, I feel I’m missing something here. Further, without the $72,000 being requested, couldn’t the parish just watch and see how successful attendance becomes? Maybe I’m not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[Auntie_M]

to “Conservative”

I do agree that traditionalist do ride a long ways at times to enjoy a traditional mass. They also, drive a long ways to enjoy the beach or the mountains. People tend to “buy” what they want.

But let’s look at it this way…scenerio

Your mom and dad bought their house when they married 50 years ago. Your dad passed away 10 years ago, and you, as a good son or daughter, “helped” mom with any repair bills or even the power bills at times.

Now, she has gotten too old to live by herself. You move into the basement (big basement), but there’s only one bathroom down there. You want to remodel, is it fair for mom to pay for those changes, she really could care less if there is no bath down there.

So, as a good son or daughter would, pay for those changes yourself, as you will be enjoying those changes, not her. Even though these changes will benefit her just as much. “The remodeling would increase the value of her house”

Would you make your mom pay just because it increases the value of her house? Even though she doesn’t even want the changes.

I don’t mean to de-value our faith, I am just trying offer another way of looking at this problem.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

TLM people get treated like second class citizens ONLY IF you have a “VICTIM COMPLEX” Maybe a little counseling would help.

really? how so? All I have to do is mention at my regular parish that I attend the TLM and all of the sudden it is as if I have leprosy and get looked at like I am a freak. So don’t tell me its a VICTIM COMPLEX because you are full of it!

So if anything the hostility, and condescending attitudes come from the OF people.

No Catholic ANYWHERE is treated like a second class citizen by another Catholic. This “Them against us” attitude is exactly what I referred to in my previous post.

yeah? then why do so many priests and bishops have such a hatefull attitude at anything pre vatican II?

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

to “Conservative”

I do agree that traditionalist do ride a long ways at times to enjoy a traditional mass. They also, drive a long ways to enjoy the beach or the mountains. People tend to “buy” what they want.

But let’s look at it this way…scenerio

Your mom and dad bought their house when they married 50 years ago. Your dad passed away 10 years ago, and you, as a good son or daughter, “helped” mom with any repair bills or even the power bills at times.

Now, she has gotten too old to live by herself. You move into the basement (big basement), but there’s only one bathroom down there. You want to remodel, is it fair for mom to pay for those changes, she really could care less if there is no bath down there.

So, as a good son or daughter would, pay for those changes yourself, as you will be enjoying those changes, not her. Even though these changes will benefit her just as much. “The remodeling would increase the value of her house”

Would you make your mom pay just because it increases the value of her house? Even though she doesn’t even want the changes.

I don’t mean to de-value our faith, I am just trying offer another way of looking at this problem.

Your illustration is a good one. From the TLM perspective (it would seem to be) grandma was kidnapped for 40 years from her house, is old and febill and just now let her out of the closet. So they throw her in the basement and make her pay current market prices to add the bathroom and pay the new utilities for her new bathroom. And when grandma dies the child gets the benefit of grandma adding the bathroom to the house she used to own? Does that kinda sum it up?

 

[Conservative]

Your illustration is a good one. From the TLM perspective (it would seem to be) grandma was kidnapped for 40 years from her house, is old and febill and just now let her out of the closet. So they throw her in the basement and make her pay current market prices to add the bathroom and pay the new utilities for her new bathroom. And when grandma dies the child gets the benefit of grandma adding the bathroom to the house she used to own? Does that kinda sum it up?

I’ll go one step further (talk about a chain reaction). You move into grandma’s house - it’s old but it’s worked. Now, you want to refurbish/add on when it worked for grandma. Why?

Auntie M’s comparison of driving to the beach with the TLM - is a tad off. We’re not there for sun and fun - but for love of God and regular Sunday/Holy Day obligation. (Most people would more readily spend money to take the distant drives to a sun-and-fun destinations and prefer local Churches for worship…Traditionalists treasure the TLM more than excursions.)

I’m going to venture here that Traditionalists (attending in a NO parish) might not have a problem being asked to give the parish a reason to continue the TLM financially - it’s giving the figure that’s the sticking point. While NO attendees might get Bishop Appeals, are they asked to keep the parish afloat by $Thousand Dollars per year? Hence, the reason for my question - on how much the costs to open the Church for one TLM - heating, AC, etc. These are issues priests have to consider in their expenses. It’s not asking that Traditionalists give good reason to CONTINUE holding at least one TLM, it’s the one-sidedness - and the number demand. If the Church will be open anyway on that day, it’s just an added Mass - with additional $$$ income. I’d have to read OP again - but $72,000 is rounded to $1,385 a week. The question must be put to the parish - what the costs are for that TLM and will that collection take in enough to cover it? Sad, isn’t it, that for the most perfect prayer - we have to talk $$$ and sense (no, I intended to spell “sense” that way).

 

[Auntie_M]

really? how so? All I have to do is mention at my regular parish that I attend the TLM and all of the sudden it is as if I have leprosy and get looked at like I am a freak. So don’t tell me its a VICTIM COMPLEX because you are full of it!

So if anything the hostility, and condescending attitudes come from the OF people.

yeah? then why do so many priests and bishops have such a hatefull attitude at anything pre vatican II?

Dear Eric

This kind of attitude is exactly what I’m referring to. The fact that YOU feel like “being looked at like a freak”, may NOT be what the others are ACTUALLY thinking. It just may be that what they are really thinking is that here’s another one that thinks we’re all evil
and going straight to hell.

See honey, the attack came from certain groups long time ago,
when the NO was being called evil, a NO attendant was “following” a non-pope. That JP11 was not a real pope, etc. etc. etc.

You may not have been a part of this group, but the attacks started then. TO THE NO. And of course, when someone “knows” the history of this group and how they “felt”, then certainly they just might look at you differently.

But, then again, maybe not…It may be that you are reading THEM wrong. Most problems between people are from jumping to conclusions and taking the wrong impression of them. You can no sooner read their minds as they can read yours. Maybe you need to face these people with your “feelings”. They may have not been thinking anything like that, they may have just had a bad day themselves.

It really Never pays for anyone to “assume” they know what the other person is thinking.

Try this, Everybody loves me think this every day until YOU start to believe it. And I am sure you will not feel like a ‘’'second class citizen".

 

[Auntie_M]

to “Conservative”

I

do agree that traditionalist do ride a long ways at times to enjoy a traditional mass. They also, drive a long ways to enjoy the beach or the mountains. People tend to “buy” what they want

 

[Auntie_M]

I’m going to venture here that Traditionalists (attending in a NO parish) might not have a problem being asked to give the parish a reason to continue the TLM financially - it’s giving the figure that’s the sticking point. While NO attendees might get Bishop Appeals, are they asked to keep the parish afloat by $Thousand Dollars per year? Hence, the reason for my question - on how much the costs to open the Church for one TLM - heating, AC, etc. These are issues priests have to consider in their expenses. It’s not asking that Traditionalists give good reason to CONTINUE holding at least one TLM, it’s the one-sidedness - and the number demand. If the Church will be open anyway on that day, it’s just an added Mass - with additional $$$ income. I’d have to read OP again - but $72,000 is rounded to $1,385 a week. The question must be put to the parish - what the costs are for that TLM and will that collection take in enough to cover it? Sad, isn’t it, that for the most perfect prayer - we have to talk $$$ and sense (no, I intended to spell “sense” that way).

I truly wish that whoever started this thread go directly to that priest/bishop (whoever announced this amount) and get HIS take on this amount. I am sure that while he is explaining to this person, IF, there is an error in the amount anywhere, he “the priest/Bishop” would get it corrected. I really don’t think anyone is trying to “rip” off anyone.

You really need to go straight to the proverbial “horse’s mouth”.
Arguing about it here will not change anything.

 

[pnewton]

While NO attendees might get Bishop Appeals, are they asked to keep the parish afloat by $Thousand Dollars per year? Hence, the reason for my question - on how much the costs to open the Church for one TLM - heating, AC, etc.

Is it only for one TLM? It was my understanding that the position of the priest was a full time. I know of no priest that only says Mass once a week.

 

[Brenda_V]

I am going to venture to guess that some who prefer the NO would be willing to put some money in a special collection to help the EF get started too.

For the real life example below you all must know that figures are given. Not only that but figures for how much it costs to run the existing Parish is given to every parishioner on an annual basis so that may be why I don’t have a problem with monetary figures given for running any Parish, Mission or Chaplaincy. It is a fact of life that even if we are not to be of this world we are in it and money and expenses happen to be a part of this world. You also need to know that although I read the figures I don’t remember them so I can’t give them to you.

What everyone this late in the thread seems to keep forgetting is that weekly rounded out figure of $1,355.00/week is not just for the rental of the Church but also for the salary and ancillary costs of being a Chaplaincy.

I am going to repeat a real life situation which everyones who is aghast at this asking for money have seemed to ignore - in my Archdiocese we are growing and not just by immigration, my Parish now has over 5000 families (a combination of retired couples and families of 3+ children) and growing. Because of that we are looking at opening our third Parish in the city - before we can open this Parish we had to have a certain $ amount for the building. Before this even happened we were started as a Mission and started Masses in a school gym, we paid the Public school the use of the gym and building. In the meantime the Parish was able to open a new Parochial school when our contract with the Public School’s was up we moved Mass to the Parochial Schools chapel, we took up a collection that all went into our own bank account still run by the main Parish, out of those funds we paid the rental for the Schools chapel, we may even have paid a portion of the salary for our Priest. I want you all to note that we still paid a rental fee for the use of a building!

It has been decided that any Priests who will be assigned to this new Parish will live (and pay rent) in the existing rectory as there is no reason for our Priests to live alone and it would cost way too much money to build or buy a new house for this purpose. We have learned a little by the opening of the second Parish in this city.

The way Parishes are started these days is certainly different from what it was in even my parents time.

I don’t know much more about this new Chaplaincy but it has promise if all those who are interested will enter into it with a glad heart of having a Priest who can say the EF correctly from the beginning and be there for their specific spiritual needs. For all we know the $72,000.00 annually isn’t even enough to keep this Chaplaincy in the black but will be 3/4 of the actual costs, maybe the Diocese is willing to chip in the difference - we don’t know all those details!

Please remember it does cost money to run a Parish and even if a Church is already open for Masses there is a possibility that the heat is turned down or the air up after or between the last morning Mass and the evening Mass so keeping it on could be a hardship on the Parishes funds.

 

[ethelzguy]

All of this has raised a question in my mind.

Instead of going to the internet, to complain about the Bishop’s request for $72k, why didn’t the group that wanted the TLM take this as an opportunity to show how much support there is/was for the TLM in the area by raising $144k in 30 days and present the Bishop with a cashiers’ check…letting the Bishop and everyone else know that they were serious?

Churches raise money all the time. Building funds, youth funds, all manner of special funds exist within the Church.

Instead of complaing out of some sense of principal, why not grab the opportunity to lead by example? It might help set the tone on a national level for the TLM community.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Instead of complaing out of some sense of principal, why not grab the opportunity to lead by example? It might help set the tone on a national level for the TLM community.

I agree with you. But it seems to me most TLMers would take exception. They tend to think their church is the one that was kidnapped and they are now having to pay the ransom.

 

[Auntie_M]

I think that priests and Bishops should really look towards how financially generous Traditionalists are and how far they will travel (gas prices or not) for the TLM. As much as we’ve discussed this, I feel I’m missing something here. Further, without the $72,000 being requested, couldn’t the parish just watch and see how successful attendance becomes? Maybe I’m not seeing the forest for the trees.

It has always been my experience that people who are “financially generous” NEVER question what something costs!

The old saying: “If you have to ask, you can’t afford it” Old saying but still rings true.

 

[Conservative]

I’m not going to pick quotes - but regarding TLM Catholics having “victim complex”. While we’re not treated like we have leprosy, have you ever tried to explain to NO Catholics (or maybe those who haven’t worshipped much) that you go to such-and-such Church because there’s a TLM? There is a reaction. We’re either the upstarts (without that word or similar being used) - or people who don’t fully understand just wondering why we don’t attend some Church closer. So many, I think, don’t get it. I’m not saying it’s everyone.

But it’s not like saying, “I’m Byzantine Rite” or “Greek Orthodox”, etc - and people just say okay, if they say anything. It’s not a victim complex either - but you feel it - they smile - but it’s like there’s something in the air - left unsaid - and you can almost read it on non-traditionalists’ faces. I will say that there’s a curiosity as to where TLM is said.

 

[Auntie_M]

I’m not going to pick quotes - but regarding TLM Catholics having “victim complex”. While we’re not treated like we have leprosy, have you ever tried to explain to NO Catholics (or maybe those who haven’t worshipped much) that you go to such-and-such Church because there’s a TLM? There is a reaction. We’re either the upstarts (without that word or similar being used) - or people who don’t fully understand just wondering why we don’t attend some Church closer. So many, I think, don’t get it. I’m not saying it’s everyone.

But it’s not like saying, “I’m Byzantine Rite” or “Greek Orthodox”, etc - and people just say okay, if they say anything. It’s not a victim complex either - but you feel it - they smile - but it’s like there’s something in the air - left unsaid - and you can almost read it on non-traditionalists’ faces. I will say that there’s a curiosity as to where TLM is said.

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, that it is the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something. Whenyou feel “odd” about something, a gut feeling so to speak. that something is wrong or at least not quite right. Think about it…

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I really wonder how people can continue to justify running a “country, USA and having expensive wars” like a corporation where a black bottom line is more important than people’s LIVES, Where we fight for the freedom of having freedom? Silly too, huh?

HUMMMMMMMMM:shrug:

Not sure where this supposed be going, but I hope you’re not seriously suggesting that HMC should be run like a country. If that were the case, we would need to elect the Pope and the College of Cardinals every so often.

In any event, though, I’ve served in Iraq and believe that particular “expensive war,” like providing the TLM in as many places as possible, is worth every penny it costs. Something things are just priceless, like liberty from tyrrany and our immortal souls, and and no dollar amount is too much to preserve either of them.

 

[estesbob]

I’m not going to pick quotes - but regarding TLM Catholics having “victim complex”. While we’re not treated like we have leprosy, have you ever tried to explain to NO Catholics (or maybe those who haven’t worshipped much) that you go to such-and-such Church because there’s a TLM? There is a reaction. We’re either the upstarts (without that word or similar being used) - or people who don’t fully understand just wondering why we don’t attend some Church closer. So many, I think, don’t get it. I’m not saying it’s everyone.

But it’s not like saying, “I’m Byzantine Rite” or “Greek Orthodox”, etc - and people just say okay, if they say anything. It’s not a victim complex either - but you feel it - they smile - but it’s like there’s something in the air - left unsaid - and you can almost read it on non-traditionalists’ faces. I will say that there’s a curiosity as to where TLM is said.

The biggest difference is that the overwhemling majority of Catholicsa don’t tie their faith to a particualr Mass. 95% of Catholics have never heard the term “Novus Ordo” and would not dream of defining their faith by the rubrics of the Mass they attend.

I am a cradle Catholic who’s entire education was in Catholic School (including 4 years in the Semimary) and who has a minor in theology. i never heard the NO Mass until I came to CAF.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, that it is the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something. Whenyou feel “odd” about something, a gut feeling so to speak. that something is wrong or at least not quite right. Think about it…

Are you refering to the odd feeling you get when you realize some Catholics can be so extremely hostile to the EF, yet have no qualms whatsoever about liturgical abuses in the OF or “modern” clergy who dispute the teachings of the Church? Then, yes, I do believe it is the Holy Spirit trying to tell me something.