Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[JReducation]

I’m not sure if anyone paid attention to the original letter from the bishop. He is not offering to give this community an EF mass in a parish. That would cause nothing.

He is offering them an EF ministry with a full-time priest that they do not have to share, a parish office that they do not have to share and all the benefits that come with being an independent ministry.

Since this would be a diocesan level ministry, parishes do not have to pay for this. Parishes do not pay for diocesan level ministries. Each parish is taxed to cover diocesan expenses and the rest of the money must come from the ministry itself.

That’s why many diocesan social ministires do fund raisers and get money from organizations such as the United Way and other donors. Because the diocesan tax is not enough to keep them going.

I worked in a diocesan ministry to people with disabilities. We got some funding from the diocese, but we go the rest of the money from families and from private organizations, even through government contracts.

If the folks up there were asking for a mass in a parish and not a full-time ministy, it would be reasonable to ask the parish to provide a time slot for it and no charge, because the priest works fro the parish, not just the one group, as is the case with priests who celebrate masses in Spanish, Creole, Portugese or the Byzantine rites in certain parishes.

These men work for the parish, not just for this community.

There was a community in the Archdiocese of Washington that asked for a hispanic ministry with a full-time priest and staff. They had to come up with the money to make it sustainable.

This is common, because no parish is going to pay a priest a salary, provide him a home, pay his taxes, etc if he does not work for them.

If you stop and think, $72,000 is not a large sum of money to pay a salary, social security and provide a residence for the priest, as well as pay for office space, a secretary and her salary and benefits and rent space to celebrate the mass and to house the ministry.

This is common all over the Church in the USA.

It’s not a persnal thing against the EF.

Some parishes do have mass in EF, but they have only a mass. No other sacraments in EF form. The priest is not full-time for the EF community.

JR

 

[Auntie_M]

Are you refering to the odd feeling you get when you realize some Catholics can be so extremely hostile to the EF, yet have no qualms whatsoever about liturgical abuses in the OF or “modern” clergy who dispute the teachings of the Church? Then, yes, I do believe it is the Holy Spirit trying to tell me something.

Please, I have heard “abuses” (the word) but I have not been told just what those “abuses” are?

Maybe you would like to explain to me and maybe to some others just what abuses we need to look out for, cause I have not heard or seen any in the NO parish I go to. But then again, I am not looking for any either.

 

[Auntie_M]

As I said before, go to your priest and talk it over with him instead of posting on these threads that none of us can do anything about it. Or, are you just here to blast others that don’t agree.

 

[JReducation]

We have seven masses in our parish every weekend. We have three friar priests and four lay friars. We have never had abuses and only four people in the last year have asked for the EF. Every mass is packed with standing room only and every Saturday we have at least an hour of confessions in English, Spanish and French.

I can’t say that my experience has been abusive. Our friars have their little quirks that some people in tradionalist forum may not like, but they are not what I call abuses. For example, we have a friar who has a great sense of humour and hsi homilies always make you laugh, but the message gets through.

We have a friar who is disabled and must celebrate mass sitting, because he has CP.

We have another friar who who has a learning disability and gets lost in his thoughts and often has to begin his homily again. But people are very patient and the liturgy is very beautiful and he homilies are very good. There is nothing different from these liturgies and what you would see in the Vatican, except that we do not have the size choir that they have in the Vatican.

No, there is no Gregorian chant, only plain chant, because the the order does not use Gregorian chant. It never has. But the parishioners know this and respect this. It’s an 800 year tradition with them. They were always exempt from Gregorian chant and still are by a papal bull. But we have very nice traditional music. I call them oldies but goodies and we have some very beautiful modern hymns too. I like them, because they are taken from scripture. I can’t recall the name of our hymnal, I want to say it’s Praise. But I’m not sure. I’ll look at it tomorrow. Maybe someone is looking for a good hymnal.

JR

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I’m not going to pick quotes - but regarding TLM Catholics having “victim complex”. While we’re not treated like we have leprosy, have you ever tried to explain to NO Catholics (or maybe those who haven’t worshipped much) that you go to such-and-such Church because there’s a TLM? There is a reaction. We’re either the upstarts (without that word or similar being used) - or people who don’t fully understand just wondering why we don’t attend some Church closer. So many, I think, don’t get it. I’m not saying it’s everyone.

I think most Catholics don’t even know that there is a TLM or a EF. So when they hear about it they’re probably a little surprised and curious. Also, most of us would immediately think “Why on earth would someone want to go to a mass in a language they don’t know?” It’s not to criticize you or judge you, it just probably takes them by surprise and raises curiosity.

 

[Auntie_M]

I think most Catholics don’t even know that there is a TLM or a EF. So when they hear about it they’re probably a little surprised and curious. Also, most of us would immediately think “Why on earth would someone want to go to a mass in a language they don’t know?” It’s not to criticize you or judge you, it just probably takes them by surprise and raises curiosity.

DITTO

 

[Auntie_M]

Not sure where this supposed be going, but I hope you’re not seriously suggesting that HMC should be run like a country. If that were the case, we would need to elect the Pope and the College of Cardinals every so often.

In any event, though, I’ve served in Iraq and believe that particular “expensive war,” like providing the TLM in as many places as possible, is worth every penny it costs. Something things are just priceless, like liberty from tyrrany and our immortal souls, and and no dollar amount is too much to preserve either of them.

Let me explain this a little bit simpler…Our country has taxes, right? right, We HAVE to pay those taxes, right? right.
We don’t always LIKE to have to pay them, right? right. But we have to “keep this country running” right? right.

We spend zillions of money on wars, Do we always LIKE to have wars, most don’t, but we all like our freedom, right? right.

Our churches has expenses, right? right. We HAVE to pay those expenses, right? right. We don’t always have the correct amount to tithe, right? right, But we still HAVE to keep our churches open. don’t we? yes.

Pay and smile while you are doing it. You have the RIGHT to worship freely.

Is that better understood, I am sorry if I was confusing.

 

[Brenda_V]

I think most Catholics don’t even know that there is a TLM or a EF. So when they hear about it they’re probably a little surprised and curious. Also, most of us would immediately think “Why on earth would someone want to go to a mass in a language they don’t know?” It’s not to criticize you or judge you, it just probably takes them by surprise and raises curiosity.

DITTO

I second the DITTO.

I was just thinking this myself this morning before I logged on. I know I have friends who would look at my funny if I talked about the TLM or EF (I would use the real words, not the abbreviations we use here). Look at the number of people who have come to this thread alone asking what those mean?

Oh, and JREducation, you have given some really good posts describing what this is all about and why the money is needed I just wonder if some will ignore what you have said as they have my real life examples of being “in this world but not of it” at a Parish or special ministry level.

Brenda V.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Maybe you would like to explain to me and maybe to some others just what abuses we need to look out for, cause I have not heard or seen any in the NO parish I go to. But then again, I am not looking for any either.

Well, if you haven’t seen any at your parish, I guess none exist anywhere. There are no liturgical abuses I’m aware of at the OF parish I currently attend either. However, I have been to parishes where there are such blatant abuses that even if someone isn’t looking for them, they probably couldn’t miss them. Some examples have been in the news and on these fora lately.

However, instead of telling you what you should be looking for, I think you should probably read the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum. Apparently Pope JPII thought liturgical abuse was widespread enough that he instructed the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacrament to study the problem and that body issued this instruction in 2004, which documented a large number of regular abuses and how and why they should be remedied. Read the document here.

I know this probably won’t convince you, that liturgical abuses do occur, but please be respectful of all of us, including the late pope, who believe that we should try to root out liturgical abuses wherever they are.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Let me explain this a little bit simpler…Our country has taxes, right? right, We HAVE to pay those taxes, right? right.
We don’t always LIKE to have to pay them, right? right. But we have to “keep this country running” right? right.

We spend zillions of money on wars, Do we always LIKE to have wars, most don’t, but we all like our freedom, right? right.

Our churches has expenses, right? right. We HAVE to pay those expenses, right? right. We don’t always have the correct amount to tithe, right? right, But we still HAVE to keep our churches open. don’t we? yes.

Pay and smile while you are doing it. You have the RIGHT to worship freely.

Is that better understood, I am sorry if I was confusing.

Yes, it is better understood, but I still think that your analogy is way of base.

Firstly, it’s probably not a good idea to analogize the Church to a nation-state because I can assure you that you don’t want the Church run like the U.S. or any other country (except maybe the Vatican ).

Secondly, you’re analogy compares people being taxed for something they don’t want (e.g. wars) with people being made to pay up front for something they want when other groups don’t have to do this. (See, e.g., post #441 in this thread.) These situations are not very similar.

Thirdly, I’m not sure where I, or anyone else, said or implied that EF supporters shouldn’t have to support an EF chaplaincy. I think everyone who has looked at this thread would agree they should support it. I think the only complaint anyone has (or at least the only compalint I have) is that no other group in the Church could literally be sent a bill for something they requested.

I can already see your arguments coming, but try looking at it from a different perspective. Surely there are large Spanish-speaking communities in a diocese or two in this country and surely those communities don’t *need *Spanish-speaking chaplain because they could just attend a Mass where they didn’t understand the language (just like EF supporters do all the time ). However, it’s plain they are much better off with their own chaplain. I’m sure in these situations, if a parish needed a priest to minister to its Spanish-speaking members and the archbishop said that part of the parish (or dicocesean) community had to raise X dollars by a certain date and 10% of that was required up front before he would even start the process, people would be outraged (and properly so). And in this case, a Spanish-speaking chaplain would (virtually) serve only the Spanish-speaking community whereas an EF chaplain would benefit everyone in the the parish or dicocesean community (and if you don’t believe me, just read what’s been comming out of Pope BVXI’s office lately). My point is that what is proposed here has the potential to be much more beneficial to a greater number of people, but an archbishop is setting up obstacles that wouldn’t be tolerated if they were placed between other groups and their requests.

 

[Brenda_V]

Thirdly, I’m not sure where I, or anyone else, said or implied that EF supporters shouldn’t have to support an EF chaplaincy. I think everyone who has looked at this thread would agree they should support it. I think the only complaint anyone has (or at least the only compalint I have) is that no other group in the Church could literally be sent a bill for something they requested.

You are right I have never heard of any other group being sent a bill for something they requested. I do have examples though of Spanish speaking communities being built up again and they came up with the total of how much it would cost to do this and were told that they had to come up with 10% of that amount before they could get started on it. So, there was no “bill” but there was a dollar figure. I live in New Mexico were for sure the Spanish speaking community has always existed we have Parishes that are almost exclusively Spanish Speaking and the “odd Mass” is the English speaking one. In one of the older such Parishes their building was falling apart, the diocese was willing to help them build it again but only if they could come up with the majority of the money to do so, they came up with the total cost and were told that in order to get help from the Diocese they would have to come up with that 10% up front - the rest would be a loan that they could pay off over several years. No one complained about this, they gladly donated and had fund raisers and worked hard to get that 10%, I only know about it because we are a very Catholic city and it was in the news a number of times as much to promote the fundraisers as to talk about what was happening.

There is another Parish in the metro area that is on the Historical Sites registry, this Parish I know has only one English Mass, the rest are in Spanish and those in my community drive there if they don’t want the bi-lingual Mass which is what we offer. They got their building repaired and a new roof put on with fund raising by parishioners and the Historical Society.

I can already see your arguments coming, but try looking at it from a different perspective. Surely there are large Spanish-speaking communities in a diocese or two in this country and surely those communities don’t *need *Spanish-speaking chaplain because they could just attend a Mass where they didn’t understand the language (just like EF supporters do all the time ). However, it’s plain they are much better off with their own chaplain. I’m sure in these situations, if a parish needed a priest to minister to its Spanish-speaking members and the archbishop said that part of the parish (or dicocesean) community had to raise X dollars by a certain date and 10% of that was required up front before he would even start the process, people would be outraged (and properly so). And in this case, a Spanish-speaking chaplain would (virtually) serve only the Spanish-speaking community whereas an EF chaplain would benefit everyone in the the parish or dicocesean community (and if you don’t believe me, just read what’s been comming out of Pope BVXI’s office lately). My point is that what is proposed here has the potential to be much more beneficial to a greater number of people, but an archbishop is setting up obstacles that wouldn’t be tolerated if they were placed between other groups and their requests.

Did you read JREducations posts? He did talk about such chaplaincies that he helped set up and they were set up just like this one so, what we have here is a group of people who are upset over a perceived slight and bring it to the internet and a group of people who see the necessity of the money and just do it and don’t bring it to the internet so unless you are a part of it (or live in that Diocese and actually read the Diocesan paper) you will never hear about it.

So, my question to you is how is asking for this money, the 10%, up-front any different than a new Parish being asked for 10% of the cost of their new building and support of Parish life before they start building? We have been asked this by our Arch-Bishop and not once but twice as my city is a rapidly growing one that is heavily Catholic so the need for new Parishes with their own buildings and Masses and RE programs is great. Okay, I will give you that there is a deadline and we didn’t have that, that is the only difference I can see and like I said before, why can’t some of the regular Parishes do a special collection to help get that first 10%?

Brenda V.

 

[ethelzguy]

Does anyone know if the group in question has or hasn’t raised said $72k, or any portion thereof?

We may be wearing ourselves out arguing over something that is moot.

 

[Conservative]

Does anyone know if the group in question has or hasn’t raised said $72k, or any portion thereof?

We may be wearing ourselves out arguing over something that is moot.

I will say that’s why I came in - Based on OP, the deadline is July 1st…Any news on this one? Inquiring minds - TLM’ers, in particular - want to know ! (That offer to use my backyard - free - still stands.)

 

[JReducation]

You are right I have never heard of any other group being sent a bill for something they requested. I do have examples though of Spanish speaking communities being built up again and they came up with the total of how much it would cost to do this and were told that they had to come up with 10% of that amount before they could get started on it. So, there was no “bill” but there was a dollar figure. I live in New Mexico were for sure the Spanish speaking community has always existed we have Parishes that are almost exclusively Spanish Speaking and the “odd Mass” is the English speaking one. In one of the older such Parishes their building was falling apart, the diocese was willing to help them build it again but only if they could come up with the majority of the money to do so, they came up with the total cost and were told that in order to get help from the Diocese they would have to come up with that 10% up front - the rest would be a loan that they could pay off over several years. No one complained about this, they gladly donated and had fund raisers and worked hard to get that 10%, I only know about it because we are a very Catholic city and it was in the news a number of times as much to promote the fundraisers as to talk about what was happening.

There is another Parish in the metro area that is on the Historical Sites registry, this Parish I know has only one English Mass, the rest are in Spanish and those in my community drive there if they don’t want the bi-lingual Mass which is what we offer. They got their building repaired and a new roof put on with fund raising by parishioners and the Historical Society.

Did you read JREducations posts? He did talk about such chaplaincies that he helped set up and they were set up just like this one so, what we have here is a group of people who are upset over a perceived slight and bring it to the internet and a group of people who see the necessity of the money and just do it and don’t bring it to the internet so unless you are a part of it (or live in that Diocese and actually read the Diocesan paper) you will never hear about it.

So, my question to you is how is asking for this money, the 10%, up-front any different than a new Parish being asked for 10% of the cost of their new building and support of Parish life before they start building? We have been asked this by our Arch-Bishop and not once but twice as my city is a rapidly growing one that is heavily Catholic so the need for new Parishes with their own buildings and Masses and RE programs is great. Okay, I will give you that there is a deadline and we didn’t have that, that is the only difference I can see and like I said before, why can’t some of the regular Parishes do a special collection to help get that first 10%?

Brenda V.

Maybe this question has been answered and I missed it.

Did this group ask for an EF ministry? If they did, then they have to make sure it’s sustainable.

If they did not, then they can go to the Bishop and say, “We don’t want a ministry just for us. Can we just have a mass at this parish or that one?”

JR

 

[Brenda_V]

Maybe this question has been answered and I missed it.

Did this group ask for an EF ministry? If they did, then they have to make sure it’s sustainable.

If they did not, then they can go to the Bishop and say, “We don’t want a ministry just for us. Can we just have a mass at this parish or that one?”

JR

From the letter to the Latin Mass Community " I am happy to announce that the Bishop has accepted a request for a patron for the Latin Mass Chaplaincy. "

So it sounds like there was a request. You can go to the first post in this thread to read the entire letter and click on the site it came from.

I checked the website for the Diocese but saw nothing so I guess we just have to wait and see!

Brenda V.

 

[JReducation]

From the letter to the Latin Mass Community " I am happy to announce that the Bishop has accepted a request for a patron for the Latin Mass Chaplaincy. "

So it sounds like there was a request. You can go to the first post in this thread to read the entire letter and click on the site it came from.

I checked the website for the Diocese but saw nothing so I guess we just have to wait and see!

Brenda V.

I guess that settles it. If they asked for a community and independent ministry, then it has to be paid for. It is what it is.

As far as I can see the issue is up to petitioners, not up to this forum.

JR

 

[preV2tradcath]

The TLM has been at the Cathedral for at least 15 years, started under the Ecclesia Dei indult of Pope John Paul II. Originally it was once a month, until it was built up to the current every Sunday and holy day. It will be new at the Basilica in Lewiston.
One nice thing about having Fr. Parent is that we will be sure of having Mass every week. Recently, due to situations like the retirement of one priest, and the fact that another is only available twice a month, a few Masses have been cancelled due to the lack of a priest.
Under the old indult, the recently retired priest I mentioned used to say the once a month Mass in Newcastle. Since the recent motu proprio, the current administrator of the Newcastle parish has learned the Mass, taken over so the Mass can continue there, and plans to have it more frequently.
Once Fr. Parent starts, one good thing for the people in Lewiston is that they won’t have to travel all the way to Portland or Newcastle to attend an approved TLM. The only current option in their area is one said by a priest from a sedevacantist religious order. I am sure we will all agree we don’t want people going to that one.

Perhaps it is time to bump the above.
The original amount we were asked to raise is a quarter of the total, or $18,000. The last I heard, we are no where near that. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[preV2tradcath]

I guess that settles it. If they asked for a community and independent ministry, then it has to be paid for. It is what it is.

As far as I can see the issue is up to petitioners, not up to this forum.

JR

Just for the record, maybe I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the request for a patron came after the bishop started the chaplaincy as the way to respond to the motu proprio. I do not know what if any recommendations members of our TLM community may have suggested as the way to implement the pope’s document.

 

[Brenda_V]

The TLM has been at the Cathedral for at least 15 years, started under the Ecclesia Dei indult of Pope John Paul II. Originally it was once a month, until it was built up to the current every Sunday and holy day. It will be new at the Basilica in Lewiston.
One nice thing about having Fr. Parent is that we will be sure of having Mass every week. Recently, due to situations like the retirement of one priest, and the fact that another is only available twice a month, a few Masses have been cancelled due to the lack of a priest.
Under the old indult, the recently retired priest I mentioned used to say the once a month Mass in Newcastle. Since the recent motu proprio, the current administrator of the Newcastle parish has learned the Mass, taken over so the Mass can continue there, and plans to have it more frequently.
Once Fr. Parent starts, one good thing for the people in Lewiston is that they won’t have to travel all the way to Portland or Newcastle to attend an approved TLM. The only current option in their area is one said by a priest from a sedevacantist religious order. I am sure we will all agree we don’t want people going to that one.

Perhaps it is time to bump the above.
The original amount we were asked to raise is a quarter of the total, or $18,000. The last I heard, we are no where near that. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Thank you for the update. Hopefully the Bishop will give you more time to come up with the $18,000. I am happy to see that you see an upside to this. My prayer is that this will turn into an OF Parish of it’s own and not just a Chaplaincy! We are all a stubborn people and if we do not see the value in giving the money or that it is an injustice and “blackmail” (just read that on another site as I was searching for more information).

Prayers for a good outcome to this.

Brenda V.

 

[JReducation]

Perhaps it is time to bump the above.
The original amount we were asked to raise is a quarter of the total, or $18,000. The last I heard, we are no where near that. It will be interesting to see what happens.

This sounds like good news, that you have a priest and a ministry that you want. Therefore, the only problem is coming up with the startup money.

As I’ve always said, “God has plenty of money.” If it is God’s will, you folks will be able to do it. Just pray, trust and be patient.

JR