"Parts of the Bible Aren't True"

[Della]

I do wonder, however, what the spiritual message could be in stories about the Israelites annihilating their enemies in Canaan including women and children. Some Christians might have thought that that was a good and moral practice which should be emulated in some cases.

For that you want to explore the writings of the Early Church Fathers who gleaned spiritual messages from nearly every word of the OT. Briefly, from what little I’ve been able to read, such passages tell us a few things:

Firstly, that the Israelites were to conquer the lands that had been granted to Abraham when he met with Melchizedek, king of Salem and high priest of God who blessed Abraham, after Abraham had defeated the kings of Canaan.

Secondly, that in order to keep themselves free from idol worship, God commanded them to destroy the idol worshipers. This doesn’t mean that we can take carte blanche to decide who should be eliminated–quite the contrary. It means that our enemies are who God says they are not us. At that time it was the pagan cultures surrounding Israel. But in the age of grace in which we live, which Jesus ushered in by his redemption of all mankind, it means we need to keep ourselves pure from the world, the flesh and the devil.

Thirdly, the Israelites were to give us the Messiah, as promised to Adam and to Abraham. In order to fulfill that prophecy they needed to be kept apart from pagan influences, which was hard enough even after the Israelites had enter the Promised Land. This last is the most important of all the reasons why God had them clear out pagans.

Fourthly, we need to remember that God created all who have lived, so his judgment as to their fate is just and proper no matter how much it violates modern sensibilities, which are often quite selective as to what parts of God’s will we will keep and which we won’t. We are hardly in the place to judge God’s decisions and commands when we, no more than the Israelites before us, can say we’ve kept ourselves pure, wishing only to do God’s will in all things.

In all that God does he has loving, good, and holy reasons for doing them. Our duty is to be able to say the same.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

I do wonder, however, what the spiritual message could be in stories about the Israelites annihilating their enemies in Canaan including women and children. Some Christians might have thought that that was a good and moral practice which should be emulated in some cases.

I don’t know what the spiritual message of those verses are for us, and so far, internet discussions on such matters have been devoid of providing anything of substance on such matters, as far as I have participated in these discussions at any rate.

I do know that they take us back to a time before the sensitivities of humanism became an indelible part of our reality. and before such sensitivities had become a part of what we take for granted about what is moral and what is not.

I do not know what the spiritual message of such stories would be for us. But the mere tact that such stories take up so much bandwidth, even without resolution, does demonstrate that these stories are still very much relevant to our spiritual and moral growth.

My understanding of these stories is it’s not about the people of Israel at all. The spiritual message is that God will punish those who are immoral, and will use any instrument he chooses. That’s why he allowed - and in fact ordered - the destruction of some cities like Jericho, but then ordered others spared. There are also lessons in there about obeying God. For example, the entire book of Judges has the people falling into the same continuous cycle of sin>servitude>supplication>salvation>silence>sin.

The people forgot God, so God allowed other nations to dominate the people of Israel and force them into servitude. The people returned to God and cried out for help, and he answered them. Then they don’t hear anything from him and return to their sinful ways and the process starts all over.

It’s actually a very common pattern in the OT.

 

[Thorolfr]

My understanding of these stories is it’s not about the people of Israel at all. The spiritual message is that God will punish those who are immoral, and will use any instrument he chooses. That’s why he allowed - and in fact ordered - the destruction of some cities like Jericho, but then ordered others spared. There are also lessons in there about obeying God. For example, the entire book of Judges has the people falling into the same continuous cycle of sin>servitude>supplication>salvation>silence>sin.

The people forgot God, so God allowed other nations to dominate the people of Israel and force them into servitude. The people returned to God and cried out for help, and he answered them. Then they don’t hear anything from him and return to their sinful ways and the process starts all over.

It’s actually a very common pattern in the OT.

But what about children and animals who could hardly be held responsible for disobeying God? Why should they be killed? And why were the sons and daughters of Achan also punished by being stoned and burned because of the transgressions of their father in taking some silver and gold during the conquest of Jericho and thereby violating the ban?

Joshua 7:15, 24-25:

15 And the one who is taken as having the devoted things shall be burned with fire, together with all that he has, for having transgressed the covenant of the Lord, and for having done an outrageous thing in Israel.’”

24 Then Joshua and all Israel with him took Achan son of Zerah, with the silver, the mantle, and the bar of gold, with his sons and daughters, with his oxen, donkeys, and sheep, and his tent and all that he had; and they brought them up to the Valley of Achor. 25 Joshua said, “Why did you bring trouble on us? The Lord is bringing trouble on you today.” And all Israel stoned him to death; they burned them with fire, cast stones on them,

And yet it says in Deuteronomy 24:16:

6 Parents shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their parents; only for their own crimes may persons be put to death.

It all seems a little contradictory doesn’t it?

 

[edwest2]

biblehub.com/genesis/18-26.htm

biblehub.com/jeremiah/5-1.htm

Ed

 

[edwest2]

My understanding of these stories is it’s not about the people of Israel at all. The spiritual message is that God will punish those who are immoral, and will use any instrument he chooses. That’s why he allowed - and in fact ordered - the destruction of some cities like Jericho, but then ordered others spared. There are also lessons in there about obeying God. For example, the entire book of Judges has the people falling into the same continuous cycle of sin>servitude>supplication>salvation>silence>sin.

The people forgot God, so God allowed other nations to dominate the people of Israel and force them into servitude. The people returned to God and cried out for help, and he answered them. Then they don’t hear anything from him and return to their sinful ways and the process starts all over.

It’s actually a very common pattern in the OT.

You’re right. The pattern does repeat. But there was at least one exception:

biblehub.com/jonah/3-10.htm

Ed

 

[billcu1]

There is too something I don’t believe that has been mentioned. There is manna all over parts of Israel. How much and where all I don’t know as well as brimstone. From volcanic activity. Hence “Fire and Brimstone”. There are very thick “plagues” of locust from time to time, and the Nile turns bright red with algae bloom, maybe as much as once a year. Their interpretation of events must’ve been very different from ours.

 

[JerryZ]

But the king died, according the how the story goes. So what you say here makes no sense. If the Jews were the victors their evidence and writings would be abundant, not less due to being destroyed by a dead king, somehow. The event most likely did not happen is the next logical conclusion.

:Uhmm: I am sorry where do you read that the king died?
The Exodus narratives state that the “Chariots of Pharaoh” were destroyed by the returning sea.
We have no direct evidence that Pharaoh actually either led or followed his army. In fact quite the opposite, back in those days it was very rare that the king directly participated in battle, normally they would command over their troops from a high place and at safe distance.
After all if the king perished the kingdom would be left in turmoil.
This was in fact standard practice in all the Egypt, Greek, Persian and Roman armies.

…

 

[CatholicHockey7]

But what about children and animals who could hardly be held responsible for disobeying God? Why should they be killed? And why were the sons and daughters of Achan also punished by being stoned and burned because of the transgressions of their father in taking some silver and gold during the conquest of Jericho and thereby violating the ban?

Joshua 7:15, 24-25:

And yet it says in Deuteronomy 24:16:

It all seems a little contradictory doesn’t it?

You ask a great question, and I’m sorry I don’t have adequate answers. I’m only basing this on my own interpretation and what I have learned from programs like the Jeff Cavins quick journey through scripture.

My best guess is a fulfillment of God’s promise that he is a jealous God and will punish to third and fourth generations for the iniquities of the father (Exodus 20:5-6).

The people were told not to do something, and they did it anyways. God then told them that to purify themselves they had to do something else. Having just witnessed the destruction of Jericho, how likely do you think they were to disobey God’s commands even if they didn’t understand or didn’t think it was fair? Maybe the point is sometimes God asks us to do things that don’t make sense, but if we trust him it will all work out.

 

[icamhif]

First of all, the Bible is not the basis for our faith–Christ is. The Bible is a witness to God working with, in and for mankind, but it is not a strictly historical work nor does it pretend to be. It contains many forms of literature, but all of it tells us the same things–that God created all there is, that man owes God for his existence, that we fell from grace, and that God has given us his Son to redeem us. That is the core message of Holy Writ–not to tell us just what happened like a news report.

I think this is a good answer to the OP.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

From the USCCB Website:

1. 
   *]Bible reading is for Catholics. The Church encourages Catholics to make reading the Bible part of their daily prayer lives. Reading these inspired words, people grow deeper in their relationship with God and come to understand their place in the community God has called them to in himself.
   
   *]Prayer is the beginning and the end. Reading the Bible is not like reading a novel or a history book. It should begin with a prayer asking the Holy Spirit to open our hearts and minds to the Word of God. Scripture reading should end with a prayer that this Word will bear fruit in our lives, helping us to become holier and more faithful people.
   
   *]Get the whole story! When selecting a Bible, look for a Catholic edition. A Catholic edition will include the Church’s complete list of sacred books along with introductions and notes for understanding the text. A Catholic edition will have an imprimatur notice on the back of the title page. An imprimatur indicates that the book is free of errors in Catholic doctrine.
   
   *]The Bible isn’t a book. It’s a library. The Bible is a collection of 73 books written over the course of many centuries. The books include royal history, prophecy, poetry, challenging letters to struggling new faith communities, and believers’ accounts of the preaching and passion of Jesus. Knowing the genre of the book you are reading will help you understand the literary tools the author is using and the meaning the author is trying to convey.
   
   *]Know what the Bible is – and what it isn’t. The Bible is the story of God’s relationship with the people he has called to himself. It is not intended to be read as history text, a science book, or a political manifesto. In the Bible, God teaches us the truths that we need for the sake of our salvation.
   
   *]The sum is greater than the parts. Read the Bible in context. What happens before and after – even in other books – helps us to understand the true meaning of the text.
   
   *]The Old relates to the New. The Old Testament and the New Testament shed light on each other. While we read the Old Testament in light of the death and resurrection of Jesus, it has its own value as well. Together, these testaments help us to understand God’s plan for human beings.
   
   *]You do not read alone. By reading and reflecting on Sacred Scripture, Catholics join those faithful men and women who have taken God’s Word to heart and put it into practice in their lives. We read the Bible within the tradition of the Church to benefit from the holiness and wisdom of all the faithful.
   
   *]What is God saying to me? The Bible is not addressed only to long-dead people in a faraway land. It is addressed to each of us in our own unique situations. When we read, we need to understand what the text says and how the faithful have understood its meaning in the past. In light of this understanding, we then ask: What is God saying to me?
   
   *]Reading isn’t enough. If Scripture remains just words on a page, our work is not done. We need to meditate on the message and put it into action in our lives. Only then can the word be “living and effective.”(Hebrews 4:12).

 

[billcu1]

From the USCCB Website:

1. 
   *]Bible reading is for Catholics. The Church encourages Catholics to make reading the Bible part of their daily prayer lives. Reading these inspired words, people grow deeper in their relationship with God and come to understand their place in the community God has called them to in himself.
   
   *]Prayer is the beginning and the end. Reading the Bible is not like reading a novel or a history book. It should begin with a prayer asking the Holy Spirit to open our hearts and minds to the Word of God. Scripture reading should end with a prayer that this Word will bear fruit in our lives, helping us to become holier and more faithful people.
   
   *]Get the whole story! When selecting a Bible, look for a Catholic edition. A Catholic edition will include the Church’s complete list of sacred books along with introductions and notes for understanding the text. A Catholic edition will have an imprimatur notice on the back of the title page. An imprimatur indicates that the book is free of errors in Catholic doctrine.
   
   *]The Bible isn’t a book. It’s a library. The Bible is a collection of 73 books written over the course of many centuries. The books include royal history, prophecy, poetry, challenging letters to struggling new faith communities, and believers’ accounts of the preaching and passion of Jesus. Knowing the genre of the book you are reading will help you understand the literary tools the author is using and the meaning the author is trying to convey.
   
   *]Know what the Bible is – and what it isn’t. The Bible is the story of God’s relationship with the people he has called to himself. It is not intended to be read as history text, a science book, or a political manifesto. In the Bible, God teaches us the truths that we need for the sake of our salvation.
   
   *]The sum is greater than the parts. Read the Bible in context. What happens before and after – even in other books – helps us to understand the true meaning of the text.
   
   *]The Old relates to the New. The Old Testament and the New Testament shed light on each other. While we read the Old Testament in light of the death and resurrection of Jesus, it has its own value as well. Together, these testaments help us to understand God’s plan for human beings.
   
   *]You do not read alone. By reading and reflecting on Sacred Scripture, Catholics join those faithful men and women who have taken God’s Word to heart and put it into practice in their lives. We read the Bible within the tradition of the Church to benefit from the holiness and wisdom of all the faithful.
   
   *]What is God saying to me? The Bible is not addressed only to long-dead people in a faraway land. It is addressed to each of us in our own unique situations. When we read, we need to understand what the text says and how the faithful have understood its meaning in the past. In light of this understanding, we then ask: What is God saying to me?
   
   *]Reading isn’t enough. If Scripture remains just words on a page, our work is not done. We need to meditate on the message and put it into action in our lives. Only then can the word be “living and effective.”(Hebrews 4:12).

1. 
   

 

[Della]

But what about children and animals who could hardly be held responsible for disobeying God? Why should they be killed? And why were the sons and daughters of Achan also punished by being stoned and burned because of the transgressions of their father in taking some silver and gold during the conquest of Jericho and thereby violating the ban?

Joshua 7:15, 24-25:

The text doesn’t specify how old the “children” were. If they were adults, they would have been as guilty as their father for they would have participated in the battle and helped their father take the anathema spoils. Sons often helped their fathers in battle, although until they married and had children of their own, they were still under his authority.

And yet it says in Deuteronomy 24:16:

The text in Joshus doesn’t say that the children were innocent. I rather imagine that those who recorded this incident knew the circumstances met the letter of the law. We simply don’t have enough details to tell us exactly who was guilty of what.

It’s always best to know the culture of the times and what was expected by God in each instance before coming to conclusions. This is the reason God established the leaders of Israel to judge such matters, just as Christ established his Church for the same reason. Because God knows that we humans can be misled and misunderstand if we only have our own inclinations and cultural milieu to instruct us in matters of faith and morals.

It all seems a little contradictory doesn’t it?

If read in the light of the whole chapter of Joshua, with a right understanding of the culture and laws, and in light of God’s nature, no, they’re not contradictory.

 

[Thorolfr]

If read in the light of the whole chapter of Joshua, with a right understanding of the culture and laws, and in light of God’s nature, no, they’re not contradictory.

That God supposedly wanted Achan and his family to be burned with fire for taking some gold and silver doesn’t make God’s nature sound all that good to me. It makes Him sound rather cruel (and that’s why I don’t believe God ever said this). The text also says explicitly that not only Achan, but “all that he has” should be burned with fire including the animals. A man’s family were part of “all that he has” and this shows that at this time, a man’s family just like his animals and his tent, etc. were basically considered to be a part of his property. He had a kind of ownership of them.

 

[Della]

That God supposedly wanted Achan and his family to be burned with fire for taking some gold and silver doesn’t make God’s nature sound all that good to me. It makes Him sound rather cruel. The text also says explicitly that not only Achan, but “all that he has” should be burned with fire including the animals. It shows that at this time, a man’s family just like his animals were basically considered to be a part of his property.

It wasn’t just about stealing a few items–it was about taking pagan items used for the worship of pagan idols, which the Israelites were strictly forbidden to do. Achan knew the penalty for disobeying this strict command of God, but he did it anyway.

People dispoiled other cultures after winning battles, it was common practice, and then they assimilated those items into their own culture. God wanted Israel to remain faithful to him alone. The temptation to worship alien gods was huge because all the cultures around them did it. And people were prone to superstitions, which is why they offered human sacrifices, etc.

As I wrote before, we cannot overlay our modern sensibilities and culture on ancient cultures. They had no modern concept of God. In their world the gods needed to be appeased and coddled or disaster would overtake them. And they were the ones who were cruel, worshiping cruel gods. God had to be quite strict with Israel for they fell into idol worship at the least provocation, as is evident throughout their history.

Again, the details of the story in Joshua is too sketchy to know exactly who was punished. But God’s commands had to be strictly obeyed. If they weren’t the consequences were immediate and serious. We who live in the age of grace are “spoiled” because God doesn’t call us to account the way he did ancient Israel, but we will still answer for our mortal sins, and that won’t be any prettier if we are unrepentant. We answer to God, after all, not he to us.

 

[Thorolfr]

We who live in the age of grace are “spoiled” because God doesn’t call us to account the way he did ancient Israel, but we will still answer for our mortal sins, and that won’t be any prettier if we are unrepentant. We answer to God, after all, not he to us.

So do you also think that it was proper only a few hundred years ago for heretics to be burned at the stake? That sounds kind of like the penalty suffered by Achan and his family. Would it be proper nowadays in your opinion if heretics were still burned at the stake so that we wouldn’t be so “spoiled”? Just wondering

I find it hard to believe that ti was ever OK to burn people to death, either in ancient Israel, in the Middle Ages or at any other time and don’t think that God would have ever wanted such a punishment.

 

[Della]

So do you also think that it was proper only a few hundred years ago for heretics to be burned at the stake? That sounds kind of like the penalty suffered by Achan and his family. Would it be proper nowadays in your opinion if heretics were still burned at the stake so that we wouldn’t be so “spoiled”? Just wondering

So, you don’t have an answer to what I wrote. It seems that for you this isn’t about the OT and what God commanded then, but about what limits God has on our lives now? The answer to that is God has no limits on anyone’s life. He can take our lives whenever he pleases however he pleases. That’s always been the case and always will be until the end of the world.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I find it hard to believe that ti was ever OK to burn people to death, either in ancient Israel, in the Middle Ages or at any other time and don’t think that God would have ever wanted such a punishment.

As Della said, you didn’t address her questions, but I’d just like to step in here for a second.

God never wanted -any- punishment. Unfortunately, due to the fact that humanity fell, punishments became a necessity to illustrate the consequences of sin. Throughout history, God has worked with human society guiding their laws closer and closer to his laws. (When they’re willing to listen.) Ancient (OT) society was so completely different from modern society that the two could barely considered to be in the same family. Believe it or not, burning at the stake was a step up from other ancient forms of execution. When a person is set to burn they frequently die, or at least pass out, from smoke inhalation prior to the flames reaching them. Compare that to being pulled apart by horses, or trampled, or stoned.

This isn’t to excuse it. It certainly isn’t something we should be engaging in today, and it would have been better if it had never happened; but you cannot look at history through a purely modern understanding, denouncing an ancient culture for doing something we never would have in or modern “enlightened” era.

As for God “wanting” it, again, I’ll point out that he was working within the existing culture, shaping it to fit his Will. If you look at God’s interactions with the Jewish people, and ultimately the whole world, it is very much like a parent’s interactions with their children. Society cannot change completely overnight, just like a child cannot learn the nuances of morality overnight. It takes years of constant reinforcement and education to train a single individual; how much more so and entire culture of people? As salvation history progressed, God’s expectations became more and more demanding, culminating in Christ’s teachings on morality and the creation of the Church to be his representative on issues of morality and faith throughout history.

Sure, Christ’s comings didn’t fix everything, we’re still human and fallible and frequently do the wrong thing even when we try to do right; but you shouldn’t conflate God allowing something (His passive will), with what he actually desires from us (His active will).

 

[Thorolfr]

So, you don’t have an answer to what I wrote. It seems that for you this isn’t about the OT and what God commanded then, but about what limits God has on our lives now? The answer to that is God has no limits on anyone’s life. He can take our lives whenever he pleases however he pleases. That’s always been the case and always will be until the end of the world.

I think that we can tell something about God’s character from what He has told us about Himself in the Bible and what He has demanded of us. For example, it says in Micah 6:8: “He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?”

If God demands kindness from us, can’t we also deduce that God Himself is kind and not cruel?

It says in John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”

If God loves us, would He ever demand that any of us be burned to death? Does that sound to you like something a loving God would do?

 

[Thorolfr]

but you cannot look at history through a purely modern understanding, denouncing an ancient culture for doing something we never would have in or modern “enlightened” era.

I agree that we can’t look at history through a purely modern understanding. But that is why the punishments described in the Old Testament describe their culture and their understanding of what they believed God demanded, not what God actually demanded of them or would have desired. Such punishments, in my opinion, were claimed by the Israelites to have been demanded by God and are claimed to be God’s words when they weren’t.

 

[Della]

I think that we can tell something about God’s character from what He has told us about Himself in the Bible and what He has demanded of us. For example, it says in Micah 6:8: “He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?”

If God demands kindness from us, can’t we also deduce that God Himself is kind and not cruel?

It says in John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”

If God loves us, would He ever demand that any of us be burned to death? Does that sound to you like something a loving God would do?

I see you refuse to understand how God worked with a world that had fallen, and has fallen again, so deeply into sin that it needed/needs strong correctives culminating in one death–a death on a cross, an extremely horrible death indeed for One who was truly innocent.

You seem to equate love with kindness. There is nothing kind about love. It is fiercer than death, stronger than blood, the most powerful force in the universe. Unless we understand what it really is, we cannot hope to understand who God is and what he asks of us.

Love is uncompromising. It demands all, not some of us. It doesn’t care about our sensibilities or wishes or what we think is right or wrong. It goes after what it wants with a ruthlessness that no other power in the world has–not greed or power or the zeitgeist of the world.

God is love. Knowing that love is not mild ought to tell us all we need to know about who God is and what he demands of us. It’s not for the fainthearted or the disloyal, but only for those who are willing to surrender to it completely.

When St. Paul gave us his list of what love is, he was writing to baptised people whose behavior he hoped to mold, for we must act with kindness and forgiveness, but love in its raw form is not concerned with any of that. It is singleminded and direct, running over whatever gets in its way with no concern for the consequences. So please don’t equate kindness, which lets people sin all they please as if it doesn’t matter, with love, for that is the great lie of our age, which we must fight against with every fiber of our being.