Pascal's Wager Argument

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jonfawkes
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If he takes away your intellect or limits it, He takes away your free will - no?*

Might as well say God takes away your free will when He takes away your life - no?

Many would freely will to live forever in this world. Obviously, that kind of free will is not going to be allowed except in the afterlife.😃
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes
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If he takes away your intellect or limits it, He takes away your free will - no?*

Might as well say God takes away your free will when He takes away your life - no?

Many would prefer to live forever. 😃
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No, our soul still has free will so we must also have an intellect to make a choice.

So, what about our addled brethren?
 
jonfawkes
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So, what about our addled brethren?*

Surely you are not referring to atheists! 😉

This thread is about whether atheists and Christians have free will. It is not about addled brethren. Do you believe they do have free will or do you believe they don’t?

Addled brethren I leave to the mercy of God.
 
MrPDGee said:
In questions concerning God, ad hominem (literally “to the man”) is always the wrong place to look. We must look to God to reveal Himself to us.
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Why don’t you go tell that to the Son of God?:

“Get behind me, satan” - The Son
“…you whitewashed sepulcres…” - The Son
“if I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; if I have not…” - The Son
God reveals Himself and His attributes and power through what He has made:
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” (Rom 1:20)
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God reveals Himself through fulfilled prophecy:
“Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not yet been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’” (Isaiah 46:10)
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God reveals Himself through His Son:
“In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” (Heb 1:1-3)
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Heb 11:6
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:confused: This seems a bit random… What was your point?
 
jonfawkes said:
It’s not my word, it’s yours 🙂
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Please see your post 645 which says: " Intellect being a hindrance and a help doesn’t come up."

I offered a reasonable alternative in post 653 using the word “If”.

“If intellect is a hindrance – I will take your word for that – than one should follow one’s heart with love for God. In any case, innate curiosity can have us seeking God. When we honestly seek God, our journey, tough as it can be, will eventually lead us into God’s presence.”
 
grannymh said:
Please see your post 645 which says: " Intellect being a hindrance and a help doesn’t come up."

I offered a reasonable alternative in post 653 using the word “If”.

“If intellect is a hindrance – I will take your word for that – than one should follow one’s heart with love for God. In any case, innate curiosity can have us seeking God. When we honestly seek God, our journey, tough as it can be, will eventually lead us into God’s presence.”
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I’m not asserting that intellect is a hindrance - you are. I’m just asking why you think so.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes
*
So, what about our addled brethren?*

Surely you are not referring to atheists! 😉

This thread is about whether atheists and Christians have free will. It is not about addled brethren. Do you believe they do have free will or do you believe they don’t?

Addled brethren I leave to the mercy of God.
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That points out another flaw in PW - the ability not to choose. He says you must choose. You don’t. If we are said to truly have free will. Benevolent agnostic fence sitters aren’t causing any harm and haven’t rejected the grace of God. They are just not gamblers.
 
jonfawkes

*That points out another flaw in PW - the ability not to choose. He says you must choose. You don’t. If we are said to truly have free will. Benevolent agnostic fence sitters aren’t causing any harm and haven’t rejected the grace of God. They are just not gamblers. *

Agnostics are gamblers too. They have gambled at sitting on the fence. That is a choice … the choice of living as though God does not exist. When was the last time you saw an agnostic in church, receiving the sacraments, or active in ministries?

Matthew 12:30
“Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is working against me.”

Agnosticism is a choice to be against God. We cannot deny our choices, nor that they are freely made with respect to God.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

That points out another flaw in PW - the ability not to choose. He says you must choose. You don’t. If we are said to truly have free will. Benevolent agnostic fence sitters aren’t causing any harm and haven’t rejected the grace of God. They are just not gamblers.

Agnostics are gamblers too. They have gambled at sitting on the fence. That is a choice … the choice of living as though God does not exist. When was the last time you saw an agnostic in church, receiving the sacraments, or active in ministries?

Matthew 12:30
“Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is working against me.”

Agnosticism is a choice to be against God. We cannot deny our choices, nor that they are freely made with respect to God.
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No not really if you continue to read

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 12:32 [/BIBLEDRB]

You see that they can fence sit.
 
jonfawkes

You see that they can fence sit.

Don’t see it. Ho-hum. :yawn:
 
It’s right there Jesus says you don’t have to be on my team but dont discount the holy spirit. Fence sitting is a forgiveable offense.
 
I think this is my favorite passage from Pascal as he speaks of how God is knowable even without overwhelming and convincing proof.

“He has given signs of Himself which are visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who do not seek Him…. It would not have been right, therefore, for Him to appear in a way that was plainly divine and absolutely bound to convince all mankind; but it was not right either that he should come in a manner so hidden that He could not be recognized by those who sought Him sincerely. He chose to make Himself perfectly knowable to them; and thus, wishing to appear openly to those who sought Him with all their heart, and hidden from those who flee Him with all their heart, He tempered the knowledge of Himself, with the result that He had given signs of Himself which are visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who do not seek Him.”
 
jonfawkes said:
It’s right there Jesus says you don’t have to be on my team but dont discount the holy spirit. Fence sitting is a forgiveable offense.
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So? So is murder and rape and any other serious sin. It’s still offensive.
 
davidv said:
So? So is murder and rape and any other serious sin. It’s still offensive.
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But it’s not accounted for in the wager. Pascal says “He is or is not” - It’s a closed system, a false dilemma.
 
jonfawkes said:
But it’s not accounted for in the wager. Pascal says “He is or is not” - It’s a closed system, a false dilemma.
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Jon: if you choose not to affirm either side of a dilemma, that does not make the dilemma a false one.
 
originally posted by jonfawkes
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But it’s not accounted for in the wager. Pascal says “He is or is not” - It’s a closed system, a false dilemma.
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I strongly agree with your commentshttp://freeimagestocks.com/content/11/dot.png
 
Betterave said:
Jon: if you choose not to affirm either side of a dilemma, that does not make the dilemma a false one.
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It is false because it says there are only 2 options “He is or He is not” - obviously there is at least a third - not to choose. Pascal even addresses it - poorly - but he acknowledges it is a choice but dismisses it.
Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. “No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all.”
Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then?
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He just dismisses it out of hand - which isn’t a compelling reason nor a valid one.
 
jonfawkes said:
It is false because it says there are only 2 options “He is or He is not” - obviously there is at least a third - not to choose. Pascal even addresses it - poorly - but he acknowledges it is a choice but dismisses it.
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That does not make the dilemma “He is or He is not” a false dilemma. You mean to claim that “choose to believe that He is or choose to believe that He is not” is a false dilemma (which it may or may not be).
He just dismisses it out of hand - which isn’t a compelling reason nor a valid one.
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But *you *are just dismissing out of hand the possibility that Pascal has a good reason for posing the dilemma the way he did - aren’t you? So we have these options:
  1. Choose to believe that He is.
  2. Choose to believe that He is not.
  3. Choose not to believe either 1 or 2.
The question, then, is whether 3 represents a genuine third option. Are you sure that it does?
 
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